Rick

10249 Winter Toy Shop

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So the first point is that re-releasing the Toy Shop would be like re-releasing CMF series one with some slight variations because, hey, some people missed it.

I think LEGO has re-released at least part of a CMF Series 3 with this set: http://alpha.bricklink.com/pages/clone/catalogitem.page?S=850458-1#T=S&O={%22ii%22:1}

I'm not sure some sets aren't just expensive because they have rare part and/or color and not expensive because of demand for the set itself. With LEGO publishing the instructions to most of their sets, anyone can BL a set if they want to, it just comes down to the rare parts.

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I think LEGO has re-released at least part of a CMF Series 3 with this set: http://alpha.bricklink.com/pages/clone/catalogitem.page?S=850458-1#T=S&O={%22ii%22:1}

As well as others with:

Minifigure Beach Accessory Pack, Rock Band Set, and Halloween Accessory Set

Some recoloring of figures, so it's similar to this minor changes for the Toy Shop.

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As we only started collecting the Winter Village sets from the 2013 edition (and thus only have the last 2 sets), I can't personally complain. But I fully understand why people who collected from the beginning feel a great deal of dissapointment with this re-release.

I like the concept, though; practically the same except for some details here and there that has been improved. If LEGO would use this concept to re-release more classics, I would be *very* pleased.

Seconded!

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Question, is the WV series actually targeted at adults? At least, in the same manner as the modular series is?

I think very few Lego products are targeted to the AFOL market. While some sets may appeal to adults more than others, even the modular target market appears to have expanded so that the 16+ designation on the box is fairly irrelevant.

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Let me explain why I think this set as a re-release is bad. These sets are pretty much supposed to be collectible - they released one new one every year - and it's not a new concept, there are a lot of Christmas "series" out there from other places (like ceramic villages) where one or two new pieces are added every year - even Barbie has a holiday release every year (or used to - I don't really follow Barbie, but my niece got the new one every year).

You can argue that LEGO is not supposed to be "collectible," except when they release minifigures as "collectible..." So TLG DOES recognize the collectibility of some things.(*) It's just part of ANY hobby. It's just how it is.

So the first point is that re-releasing the Toy Shop would be like re-releasing CMF series one with some slight variations because, hey, some people missed it.

The second point is that there are retired sets that are HUGELY in demand compared to the WV sets. It's hard to quantify the number of people, but given the economics of supply and demand, a good measure would be what old sets are selling for. Up until yesterday, the Toy Shop was selling for somewhere around 3 to 4 times it's MSRP. Cafe Corner is closer to 10. Which one does it make sense to re-release?

Keep in mind that I have both - I'm not arguing this from a "I don't have it so they should re-release it" perspective, I have BOTH, and it wouldn't bother me nearly as much if they re-released Cafe Corner because that's obviously what people want.

The third point is that if there's only one main WV set per year, then a repeat supplants anything new. Re-releasing a modular wouldn't have to supplant releasing a new modular, too... if they release a new modular at the beginning of a year, re-releasing an old set in the summer wouldn't hurt anything.

To answer your last question, you should never, ever count on a set being re-released... ever. Just be happy if they do it for a set you missed, but never count on it, and don't bother getting your hopes up.

(*) As a side note, my only problem with "collectible" is when they create an artificial scarcity, or make something unreasonably difficult to get - but these sets were widely available to everybody at the time.

Rereleasing it doesn't affect the collectibility, though. If anything, it makes it more collectible, since it's easier to collect. :p The problem is that you're using the wrong definition of "collectible".

These sets were never intended to be "rare" or whatever; they were limited, yes, but in the sense of being seasonally available, like Christmas trees, Santa ornaments or Pumpkin Spice Frappuccinos. The idea these were ever intended as trophies for those elite few who are able to get everything right away and then lord it over the poor teeming unwashed masses is refuted by the fact they released each of the first two or three sets for three consecutive years each (the original Winter Toy Shop was released in 2009, and rereleased in both 2010 and 2011; the Winter Village Bakery was made available in 2010, 2011, and 2012, etc.). These are sets for "everyone" (that is, at least as many people as LEGO is able to sell them to).

That said, I will agree with your point that one shouldn't count on a set being rereleased, and to just be happy if one is.

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I disagree - "collectible" w.r.t. hobbies means something that has potential to become rare and sought after.

That these sets were never "rare" was actually one of my points (see the (*) part) - it's more reason TLG shouldn't be re-releasing it.

I've missed plenty of sets in the past - I can't afford everything as soon as it comes out (or at all, in a lot of cases). I didn't get the MF Haunted House, either - I would really have loved to get that one, so it's not like I'm "lording" anything over anybody - I even agreed that some sets could go for a re-release, but those sets wouldn't: 1) supplant a new set, and 2) should be ones that are actually highly sought after.

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We have to question, when rereleasing a set (or even releasing one to begin with), what is more viable. This includes the size of markets (which I have no figures on so this is purely random guessing, if anyone does that would be great), which in this case, would be AFOLs and kids (or rather, parents of said kids who themselves are not AFOLs), what will they sell more of: a large single set geared towards adults, or the eqiuvalent retail price of smaller sets geared towards kids? The aftermarket price becomes rather a moot point if you are considering sets for kids, as the guardians of the pursestrings - the parents, are not going to go for the aftermarket prices, unless it is for some highly must have toy such as that of the Cabbage Patch Dolls, Teletubbies or Elsa dolls. In the mind of a parent, would an alternate suffice instead? For example my mother - I can't comment on her Lego buying days because those were over a decade ago but rather that of current gifts - resented paying £30 for a toy school set for her partner's granddaughter given the number of contents - similar thing when she tried to beat the system and bought me a second hand copy of a video game, not knowing about the concept of online activation. I can just imagine her going on to Bricklink or eBay, taking one look at the price tag of any aftermarket set and saying "Bloody hell, you can forget that" and finding something similar to what is currently available.

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I disagree - "collectible" w.r.t. hobbies means something that has potential to become rare and sought after.

That these sets were never "rare" was actually one of my points (see the (*) part) - it's more reason TLG shouldn't be re-releasing it.

I've missed plenty of sets in the past - I can't afford everything as soon as it comes out (or at all, in a lot of cases). I didn't get the MF Haunted House, either - I would really have loved to get that one, so it's not like I'm "lording" anything over anybody - I even agreed that some sets could go for a re-release, but those sets wouldn't: 1) supplant a new set, and 2) should be ones that are actually highly sought after.

"Collectible" with regard to hobbies can refer to things like seashells, though, which clearly aren't limited edition things. Moreover, it's a bit moot, since TLG itself seldom if ever uses the word "collectible" anyway. At its closest, it says things like "collect the whole series!" Even the so-called "CMFs" are in fact called that only by us fans, not TLG - the official name of the theme is simply "Minifigures", and they don't actually use the word "collectible". They do implore one to collect them all, they refer to a given series in aggregate as a collection, and they even refer to the little poster-like checklist / instruction sheet as a "collector's leaflet", but they don't call the figures "collectible" - that's just a name that our fan community ascribed to them, and then we get all riled up when TLG doesn't treat them like that adjective it doesn't use itself.

Anyway, getting back on track, there's no evidence this set did supplant a new set; it's quite possible Santa's Workshop was intended to be the end of the series (and I for one actually thought that might be the case as early as last year), and that the only reason they released this new Winter Toy Shop at all is because the theme is so popular they decided at the eleventh hour to release another, but that since they didn't start developing one in time they had to reuse an existing set and gave it some tweaks and additions. No, we don't know that's what happened, true, but we also don't know that they would have released any other Winter Village-type set if they hadn't done this. They might well have just not released any. Many people surely would have been disappointed by that, which I understand; what I don't understand is why they apparently feel so much more upset about this one than they would have about LEGO not doing one at all.

Oh, well. It's most unfortunate - I think after this reaction, TLG will be even more skittish about reissues (and near-reissues, like this one) than they were already. I think if they'd done the same thing one more year, and given us an updated Winter Village Bakery in 2016, it would've been great - it could take advantage of the molds for ice skates, cupcakes, etc. that didn't exist in 2010. I very much doubt it'll happen, though, after the way people have bitten TLG's head off for releasing this set.

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The negative opinions expressed on this forum and elsewhere will easily be dismissed by TLG if 10249 is a sales success (assuming both that they are aware of these comments and that they care about them). Profit trumps opinion, at least in situations like this one.

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The negative opinions expressed on this forum and elsewhere will easily be dismissed by TLG if 10249 is a sales success (assuming both that they are aware of these comments and that they care about them). Profit trumps opinion, at least in situations like this one.

Agreed - TLG doesn't read this forum, and I don't know what's going on on their facebook page or other social media, but this goes back to the point I made that if they are going to re-release a set, why the heck didn't they pick a set that was actually, vocally, in demand. A lot of people might be happy about this re-release, but few were vocal about it, versus how many people have been begging for a re-release of Cafe Corner (with bricklink sales stats to back it up)?

I don't think people are complaining that a set was re-released so much as if they're going to re-release a set, there were many better choices.

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If we are to believe the (very plausible-sounding rumors), LEGO was going to discontinue this line - and only decided against it due to demand after last year's set. They did not have time to come up with something brand new this year, so it was basically giving us a re-release or giving us nothing.

So even those who already have this set should just be happy that LEGO actually listened to fans and decided to continue the line, and look forward to a brand new set next year.

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Lego has scoreboard on all of its critics and competitors. Plus, they probably have analytical tools to determine what is a vocal minority (me also preferring a modular rerelease?) and the silent majority who just buy the product, take it home to the kids and aren't that into it except as seeing Duplo as a way to keep some little brat occupied.

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Why, if sales were good, were they going to discontinue it? Because of one statement that could be taken several different ways?

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I don't buy this idea that it actually, if pressed, takes soooo long to come up with a new toy that's under 1000 pieces. When did this become cold fusion? Or the Manhattan Project? Using pieces already in existence, moving a few production line schedules around. Besides, there have to be some previously unused WV ideas somewhere within the depths of TLG design headquarters. Sorry, but given the size of Lego and the talent that's in house, they could have come up with something on short notice. This isn't saying I'm against the rerelease, just sayin' not having a new one ready for market is a lame excuse.

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Anyone who missed the original will no doubt buy this set, but the hundreds, maybe thousands of people who have been collecting these sets each year will surely take a miss this year. which will impact profits, I myself cannot understand why they have done this.

I also wish I could find my post from back in the early part of the year when I suggested it was a toy shop again this year and I was shot down and informed this was just a place holder, Never mind, just another disappointment this year to go along with the lack of a new Creator train! At least I can look forward to the Technic Merc set for Christmas, and I still have Santa's workshop from last year to build.

Roll on 2016

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I don't buy this idea that it actually, if pressed, takes soooo long to come up with a new toy that's under 1000 pieces. When did this become cold fusion? Or the Manhattan Project? Using pieces already in existence, moving a few production line schedules around. Besides, there have to be some previously unused WV ideas somewhere within the depths of TLG design headquarters. Sorry, but given the size of Lego and the talent that's in house, they could have come up with something on short notice. This isn't saying I'm against the rerelease, just sayin' not having a new one ready for market is a lame excuse.

There are limits to everything. If designing and producing sets were as quick and easy as you make it seem then they should be able to produce thousands of sets a year.

Producing a bad set would be worse than producing nothing at all. The last few releases have seen plenty of complaints from people here who didn't like the sets, the prices, etc. So slapping together a set just to make people here happy would make no business sense at all. Especially when the people on sites like this only represent a small percentage of TLG's customers.

TLG's sales have increased as well as their customer base since this set was last released. There are plenty of people who will walk into a LEGO store, buy this set and have no idea of its previous release.

TLG is running a business and businesses are never going to please all of their customers all the time. They make imperfect decisions in imperfect situations. This reminds me of the controversy last Christmas then there were those claiming TLG was ruining their children's Christmas by releasing the Disney frozen set in January. The president of TLG was asked about this and his response was great. He basically said TLG was happy to produce the set, thought it was great, but in he overall picture one set didn't mean much.

One set isn't going to make or break them considering they produce hundreds of products a year. If the decision was wrong then they will pay the price financially and will change their future strategy.

While I understand the dissapointment that people feel, instead of acting like TLG canceled Christmas they should be happy TLG produced so many winter village sets to begin with. All good things come to an end and TLG proves that every year.

Edited by Darth Punk

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Why, if sales were good, were they going to discontinue it? Because of one statement that could be taken several different ways?

It might be because sales were not as good for the Winter Market the year before. Likely, TLG misinterpreted that as lagging interest in the theme itself, rather than just that particular set. As a send-off, they planned the Santa's Workshop as a finale to the theme, which then exceeded sales due to being a better set overall, and possibly a TLM effect.

As for TLG's apparent inability to get a new set together in a short time, I can believe it. They do extensive testing on a set's durability, and then they would have to ensure they could get the parts manufactured, assembled, packaged, and shipped in time for sale starting in September and sustained through the season. Plus, they probably waited until Feb or March to go ahead with the decision, once they had firm sales numbers for the end of 2014. I can see all those steps adding up to a very tight production schedule for a new D2C (i.e. smaller production run, lower margins), so they decided to cut out the most time-consuming step, which was design. The previous set was sturdy, stable, had sold well enough, and was also the oldest one they had done, meaning there would be less chance for consumer fatigue (imagine if this year's was a rehash of the Santa's Workshop! Practically everyone would grumble!), so it made the most sense for an update.

And then they release a statement saying they probably won't ever do this again, because they also would have preferred not to have done it this way.

Edited by rodiziorobs

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They would have known shortly after last years release how demand was trending. So, they'd have almost a year to put together something new. Making a box, an instruction book and using less that 900 existing parts isn't all that complicated. But, I welcome the rerelease even though I have the original.

Let's not make manufacturing a set the size of a WV set with existing parts sound like it's all that complex. It ain't.

Next Lego apologist, your turn.

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I think they could do a set faster than that; they do Ideas sets faster than that (less than a year). I do understand it's not always quite that simple, and people may be working on other things, but I also expect they've had any number of ideas for WV sets that hadn't been chosen yet.

I also want to point out that, while it seems like people are going really crazy over this release, it's really merely disappointing. I'll discuss it as long as anybody wants to discuss it, but in the grand scheme of things it's not like my hopes and dreams were crushed... I don't want to overstate the case. The biggest thing to me is how baffling it is. I can believe they weren't going to continue it (although we don't know, and I won't claim it must be the most likely scenario, it's that I can accept the possibility); I can believe they had to come up with something quick, and I can believe they didn't have time to develop a whole new set. But I can't believe they didn't already have other ideas from past years that would have fit the bill, and it's nearly impossible for me to believe they are "testing the waters" on re-releases, because this would have been one of the dumbest choices they could have made for such a test.

Again, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but a set from a similar time frame whose aftermarket value is 10x MSRP seems like a much more likely choice than one whose aftermarket value is little more than 3x MSRP - a simple indication of demand, IMO.

Edited by fred67

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They would have known shortly after last years release how demand was trending. So, they'd have almost a year to put together something new. Making a box, an instruction book and using less that 900 existing parts isn't all that complicated. But, I welcome the rerelease even though I have the original.

Let's not make manufacturing a set the size of a WV set with existing parts sound like it's all that complex. It ain't.

Next Lego apologist, your turn.

Except that there's more to it than that. You're forgetting the testing period where they check to ensure the set is stable. You're forgetting where they refine the design to determine the ideal number and type of bricks to use in this wall or that section of roof. You're forgetting the research they do on various ideas to see which ones consumers will most recognize and find meaningful, what should be in a given concept, etc. You're forgetting the whole development period for the instructions, where they decide which of any number of different ways of building the model is the best order to present things in, how many parts should be added in each step, whether it should be one booklet or two or three, etc. You're forgetting the proofreading and testing of the instructions and the model to make sure the instructions are clear enough for builders in the target age range.

There's a ton of stuff that goes into a given set that takes up lots of development time; it's really not as simple as one of us just whipping up a MOC over a weekend and cranking out an LDD file and some crude instructions from that. There's a reason (reasons, actually) why it takes a while to develop a set, and it does indeed generally take a long time, a few exceptions notwithstanding.

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They would have known shortly after last years release how demand was trending. So, they'd have almost a year to put together something new. Making a box, an instruction book and using less that 900 existing parts isn't all that complicated. But, I welcome the rerelease even though I have the original.

Let's not make manufacturing a set the size of a WV set with existing parts sound like it's all that complex. It ain't.

Next Lego apologist, your turn.

There is nothing to apologize for. TLG made a business decision that fit into the overall picture of running a billion dollar company. Failure to understand that simple fact will always lead to the failure to understand why they do what they do. As a business owner you make decisions that benefit the company as a whole. TLG could produce all sorts of products, but will only do if it fits into achieving short term and long term goals. Very basic concepts of business ownership.

Except that there's more to it than that. You're forgetting the testing period where they check to ensure the set is stable. You're forgetting where they refine the design to determine the ideal number and type of bricks to use in this wall or that section of roof. You're forgetting the research they do on various ideas to see which ones consumers will most recognize and find meaningful, what should be in a given concept, etc. You're forgetting the whole development period for the instructions, where they decide which of any number of different ways of building the model is the best order to present things in, how many parts should be added in each step, whether it should be one booklet or two or three, etc. You're forgetting the proofreading and testing of the instructions and the model to make sure the instructions are clear enough for builders in the target age range.

There's a ton of stuff that goes into a given set that takes up lots of development time; it's really not as simple as one of us just whipping up a MOC over a weekend and cranking out an LDD file and some crude instructions from that. There's a reason (reasons, actually) why it takes a while to develop a set, and it does indeed generally take a long time, a few exceptions notwithstanding.

Not to mention finding a spot on shelves for another product where every inch is filled.

Edited by Darth Punk

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Still, not buying it. And, we don't know why Lego made the decision. On the face of it, it appears to be a bad one. But just as I can't condemn TLG for issuing the set because I don't have the data that was used to make the decision.........those who defend the decision as one that will benefit TLG don't have the date to support that position, either. And, just because TLG makes a decision doesn't mean the decision is justified or good business or profitable or good for the company solely because they made it. Let's go back to a time not too long ago when TLG was about to be acquired/broken up/ sold in pieces and become just another business failure.

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Still, not buying it. And, we don't know why Lego made the decision. On the face of it, it appears to be a bad one. But just as I can't condemn TLG for issuing the set because I don't have the data that was used to make the decision.........those who defend the decision as one that will benefit TLG don't have the date to support that position, either. And, just because TLG makes a decision doesn't mean the decision is justified or good business or profitable or good for the company solely because they made it. Let's go back to a time not too long ago when TLG was about to be acquired/broken up/ sold in pieces and become just another business failure.

Indeed, because they weren't running their company like a business. They let creativity and innovation be the deciding factor in all decisions. Creativity and innovation definitely need to be apart of their company but decisions must be backed by sound business practices. I've seen many people go under by letting their ideals overwhelm any business sense.

People complain on eurobricks all the time about TLG not producing new minifigs, new sets , new themes. This is what almost caused them to go bankrupt in the first place. They repeat fire and police in city sets because they sell. The feature batman in DC because he sells. They don't continually make new pieces and minifigs because they all cost money. They reuse old ideas because they were successful and can be again to an ever changing market. If it works don't fix it. As a business owner myself I can relate to this and realize the perspective of a customer can be very different from the business owner.

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Huh. For a few days I thought someone was just necroposting the old Toy Shop thread, then boom, re-release.

I don't mind it---in fact, if they had to re-release a Winter set I'm glad it was the Toy Shop. I remember the heartache it caused when the first one seemingly ran out of stock forever after its first winter release. People will get to experience the toy shop more = yay for those who missed out. Kinda not glad about the $20 price hike over the original, but oh well.

Slightly off topic, wouldn't it be funny if we next see a modular Cafe Corner, re-released for $160, with interior bits?

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