Will BIONICLE G2 get more love from LEGO than Hero Factory?

[TwistLaw]

Hero Factory was an average line, that's no news. It lasted four years, which are A LOT, but didn't really innovate after 2011 and had in general a fairly small budget that allowed it to "sell what it has to sell", as many LEGO employers reported during the years of its run.

So, with books at the horizon (and HF had nothing like that in its first year), sets on shelves and early feedbacks, do you think this new generation of BIONICLE will be able to resuscitate the constraction area, nowadays a niche - ten years ago a LEGO mainstay? It's an harsh world for BIONICLE G2, with Ninjago stronger than ever and the constraction area a shadow of its former self, but I have hope for the future.

[Quisoves Pugnat]

It lasted four years,

Five, actually, though the first wave was originally intended to be what became 2.0.

but didn't really innovate after 2011

Invasion from Below wasn't innovative? It was certainly different than what came before.

So, with books at the horizon (and HF had nothing like that in its first year),

Paperback books, no. But it did have comics and a TV special.

nowadays a niche - ten years ago a LEGO mainstay? It's an harsh world for BIONICLE G2,

Citation, please?

with Ninjago stronger than ever and the constraction area a shadow of its former self, but I have hope for the future.

So Ninjago is a competitor to constraction?

[TwistLaw]

Five, actually, though the first wave was originally intended to be what became 2.0.

Right.

Invasion from Below wasn't innovative? It was certainly different than what came before.

Different but with the same pieces as always, cockpit excluded. Still something, but... meh.

Paperback books, no. But it did have comics and a TV special.

The TV special had to be done, since the contract LEGO signed for two more BIONICLE movies hadn't expired yet.

Citation, please?

In 2002 BIONICLE amounted for about 25% of LEGO revenues. Today constraction is a niche, as it's been often said. There's no need to citation, a confrontation between BIONICLE 2003 and Hero Factory 2013 should be quite self explanatory.

So Ninjago is a competitor to constraction?

Of course not to constraction, but as a LEGO IP in general. Back in 2001 LEGO had no other IP, and those later introduced until Ninjago had never an enormous success (Exo-Force, Knight's Kingdom, Galidor ).

Edited July 10, 2015 by TwistLaw

[Quisoves Pugnat]

Different but with the same pieces as always, cockpit excluded. Still something, but... meh.

The same pieces as always, really?

If nothing else, the amount of Technic used in the Hero Machines is a significant difference.

The TV special had to be done, since the contract LEGO signed for two more BIONICLE movies hadn't expired yet.

Granted, but there was no contractual need, as far as I can tell, for continued TV specials after Ordeal of Fire, and we got those. And the comic books continued through 2011. Then, in 2012, we got the first Hero Factory novel.

In 2002 BIONICLE amounted for about 25% of LEGO revenues. Today constraction is a niche, as it's been often said. There's no need to citation, a confrontation between BIONICLE 2003 and Hero Factory 2013 should be quite self explanatory.

I'm afraid it isn't. LEGO was was nearing bankruptcy, back in '02. BIONICLE was the one thing keeping it from the abyss. Today, LEGO is far more successful. Its continued survival should never have to ride on a single theme. That it doesn't now does not make constraction a niche.

Besides, if it is niche, why have we had multiple constraction lines running at once? We've seen Chima, Super Heroes, and now Star Wars constraction figures.

Of course not to constraction, but as a LEGO IP in general. Back in 2001 LEGO had no other IP, and those later introduced until Ninjago had never an enormous success (Exo-Force, Knight's Kingdom, Galidor ).

That still shouldn't adversely affect LEGO themes in a completely different category. Ninjago doing well and constraction doing well are not mutually exclusive occurences.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Quisoves Pugnat

[TwistLaw]

You're a tough nut to crack

I'll just make one post.

1) 2013 and 2014 saw very little new pieces introduced, especially armor and weapons, and for how well known LEGO is for the clever recylce of its bricks it is... sadenning I guess? Or maybe I'm just nostalgic of the fresh feeling you could experience in 2004 or 2006. All those new pieces still, I didn't say we had no interesting sets, just few new pieces (and new pieces= high budget= LEGO trusts the brand)

2) In 2012 we got the first Hero Factory novel... and the last one. it was not for a HF merit, rather than because of the success of Ninjago novels. They've bitten, but the taste wasn't good.

3) Yeah, we had tons of ultrabuilds and this is a point for you, but I think it's more an attempt to make CCBS truly profitable. Sure, CCBS is also really adaptable.

4) I know that too, but a parent ain't gonna buy two LEGO sets for her/his kid. If one has to be bought, Ninjago is the most probable choice, even though it's a completely different toy.

Edited July 11, 2015 by TwistLaw

[mysteriouspi]

I'll throw in my thoughts.

1) The low number of new molds is probably helping Gen 2 BIONICLE more than it's hurting it. Some folks want lots of new molds every year because that's a feature of Gen 1, but few new molds helps the line financially. And with CCBS we don't even need new pieces terribly often while still being able to create varied looks for different builds. Also, TLG trusts the brand because they green-lit it in the first place. No need to be worried about that.

2) Can't comment much here, never read anything HF. That said, as long as the BIONICLE (graphic) novels do a good job of detailing the story while still making it accessible we may get a whole line of them the way Gen 1 did. Or maybe not. We'll have to wait on that one.

3) I'm sure CCBS was profitable as HF alone. If the Ultrabuilds were necessary to keep constraction afloat, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have BIONICLE right now (nor Star Wars Ultrabuilds coming in September).

4) There are certainly kids out there who get both constraction and system sets, and some that prefer action figures and therefore mostly get constraction sets. Yes, Ninjago is wildly successful, but that doesn't mean BIONICLE doesn't have its place.

[Mandate]

The "low number" of molds is a joke. There's around 30 new molds for BIONICLE created this year, a far cry from the likes of NINJAGO that had around, if not less than, 15 new molds this year. The reason why it isn't very far from the general CCBS style is because for aesthetic pieces that are going to be directly visible on pieces most of the time consists almost entirely of masks. LEGO insists on keeping to the original style of CCBS (a darn shame if you ask me) is why it doesn't "look" like the Toa Mata or Inika.

As for whether or not BIONICLE will reclaim its place as "King" or if NINJAGO will remain LEGO's best seller at the moment, we'll need to wait and see on that one. I've heard rumors that the sets aren't selling well on Brickset and seen people say a LEGO official told them they aren't selling well, but I've also seen the reverse of that and this happens every year a "main" line debuts. I'm expecting a success on the level of Chima, but I won't complain if it sells better than everything else LEGO has right now.

In truth, it depends on how successful the line is. NINJAGO was more successful than BIONICLE's first year and has continued selling well even in the face of discontinuation, yet continues to have less media than in the year before LEGO nearly pulled the plug. It also depends on how LEGO reacts to the success of the line, success on minimal media can mean either more media and molds or the same amount we got this year. We don't have access to LEGO's finances, so we're not going to get a concrete answer until next year.

[Gatanui]

NINJAGO was more successful than BIONICLE's first year and has continued selling well even in the face of discontinuation, yet continues to have less media than in the year before LEGO nearly pulled the plug.

Not really, there were 13 episodes in 2013 but 20 episodes this year.

[Mandate]

Not really, there were 13 episodes in 2013 but 20 episodes this year.

Season 2 (or the second half of season 2 depending on where you live) aired in 2012, not 2013. I also said "in the year before", not "in the year".

[vexorian]

It already has. Just look at the sets the design qality is top notch.

HF was the place where Lego experimented new constraction ideas. All that experimentation really paid off when Bionicle G2 was released.

I hope Bionicle G2 has one more wave but ends there. It should come back 5 years later. Once again reusing all the innovation from whatever theme replaces G2.

but didn't really innovate after 2011

Even if this was true, 2011 was really a ton of innovation, far more innovative than the last 4/5 of G1 combined.

[TwistLaw]

2011 was really a ton of innovation, far more innovative than the last 4/5 of G1 combined.

I wouldn't go as far as saying CCBS was more innovative than Inika build, but I get your point.

[Leewan]

I wouldn't go as far as saying CCBS was more innovative than Inika build, but I get your point.

Yes it was, and by far, because the CCBS is much more versatile than the old system (which includes the Inika build).

-

Whether G2 will get more love from Lego than HF depends on nothing but the sales. If the sets sell well enough, and even better than expected, then BIONICLE will have a bigger budget. Anyways, I think G2 is already getting lots of love from Lego : we may not have a TV show, but we have webisodes, we'll have at least five books, they made eight 14K gold masks, three exclusive masks, one polybag, and lots of new molds. I think the only thing that BIONICLE lacks compared to Ninjago is a strong TV presence, which would definitely contribute to boosting the sales.

[GK733]

I wouldn't go as far as saying CCBS was more innovative than Inika build, but I get your point.

One new upper torso and chest armor and some new molds having the same purpose as old pieces, also lots of re-used molds from Vsorak/Toa Metru (Inika build is also just a re-skin of Piraka build anyways). Comparing that rehearsed pile to an entirely new system that CCBS is isn't even fair. I would say that the Metru were more innovative than Inika, They had more new molds and those molds didn't just share the same purpose as all the old ones.

On the actual topic I believe we get to see a new and improved version of CCBS at some point, not something like the transition to it was, but in a way how the old build evolved with pieces adding more place for customization. Meaning moslty pieces with more attachment points and thus making parts like torso, foot. Even going as far as breaking limbs into two pieces (Think about pieces that are like friction joints but longer) seems an option.

For a story and media I don't think there ever will be a TV-series, but these small animations with better quality could become a thing and a movie or couple if the sales stay good enough. I'd believe that as whole Bionicle will not get that much of media treatment and publicity as Hero Factory, but what it gets, will be more fleshed out and of better quality.

[Lyichir]

I wouldn't go as far as saying CCBS was more innovative than Inika build, but I get your point.

Was the Inika build really that innovative? Mostly, it just took the type of leg poseability already used by the Toa Metru and later sets, and applied it to the arms as well. What little innovation it offered was incremental at best, particularly compared to the completely revolutionary shift when the CCBS was introduced.

[TwistLaw]

G-g-g-guys I was just trying to be a BIONICLE fan boy, no need for bashing, b-b-b-b-bakas >/////<

[Alexander The Great]

So you can't see the gap between HF 2010-2011 and HF 2013-2014? Between the completely new building system and some new elements? Then, of course, you can't see that G2 wasn't a far step away from HF.

I've counted 18 pieces that first wave of G2 needed to do this step. The article is in Russian.

As for Ninjago vs Bionicle. The topicstarter meant that these themes have the same audience. Boys from 5 up to 12. And if TLG promote Nijas kids will buy Nijas. If they promote Bionicle (as they did in the past) the same kids will buy Bionicle. Nijago is an extremely popular because TLG made them extremely popular.

[TwistLaw]

So you can't see the gap between HF 2010-2011 and HF 2013-2014? Between the completely new building system and some new elements? Then, of course, you can't see that G2 wasn't a far step away from HF.

That's exactly what I said in the OP:

"It lasted four years, which are A LOT, but didn't really innovate after 2011"

[Alexander The Great]

That's exactly what I said in the OP:

"It lasted four years, which are A LOT, but didn't really innovate after 2011"

hhhm, my post wasn't for you.

[Aanchir]

It's definitely important to remember that when Bionicle was the LEGO Group's top theme, it wasn't just because Bionicle was exceptional, it was because their core themes were failing and the company was in crisis. Today, the company is doing better than ever, with lots of extremely lucrative themes like LEGO City, LEGO Friends, LEGO Ninjago, and LEGO Creator still going strong. The LEGO Group is already investing plenty in new molds and marketing for Bionicle, but it's unlikely it will ever again be as important to them as it was back when it was practically the only thing keeping them afloat.

Of course, the LEGO Group is definitely going to be more cautious with G2 Bionicle than they were with many of their older themes. Exercising caution and avoiding overspecialization is part of the reason LEGO isn't in crisis anymore. It's not like being in better financial straits gives them free rein to invest their resources recklessly, when the only reason they're NOT in dire financial straits is being smart about how they invest their resources.

Another thing that's important to remember: During Bionicle's most successful years, it was one of the only toys of its kind. Mega Bloks had Blok Bots, but still, the "buildable action figure" market was very small and no competitor could have anticipated a theme like Bionicle becoming such a big hit. Today, it's a different market — buildable action figures are not so novel, and there's really nothing the LEGO Group can do about that. They just have to design and market for whatever situation they're faced with.

[TwistLaw]

Another thing that's important to remember: During Bionicle's most successful years, it was one of the only toys of its kind. Mega Bloks had Blok Bots, but still, the "buildable action figure" market was very small and no competitor could have anticipated a theme like Bionicle becoming such a big hit. Today, it's a different market — buildable action figures are not so novel, and there's really nothing the LEGO Group can do about that. They just have to design and market for whatever situation they're faced with.

I am curious, who are the competitors in the buildable action figure area?

[Aanchir]

I am curious, who are the competitors in the buildable action figure area?

Well, Transformers has one called "Construct-Bots", and also a simpler style called "Hero Mashers" that are more Galidor-ish in terms of using mostly swappable prefab limbs. Mega Bloks has one called "Kapow! Blok Bots Fighting League", and also buildable Halo figures. Ionix also has Tenkai Knights buildable figures. Those are just the ones I know of from store shelves and the Internet.

[TwistLaw]

Well, Transformers has one called "Construct-Bots", and also a simpler style called "Hero Mashers" that are more Galidor-ish in terms of using mostly swappable prefab limbs. Mega Bloks has one called "Kapow! Blok Bots Fighting League", and also buildable Halo figures. Ionix also has Tenkai Knights buildable figures. Those are just the ones I know of from store shelves and the Internet.

Thanks for the insight!

Transformers apart none of them seems really threatening for BIONICLE, but I still can see that competiton abounds.

[GK733]

Well, Transformers has one called "Construct-Bots", and also a simpler style called "Hero Mashers" that are more Galidor-ish in terms of using mostly swappable prefab limbs. Mega Bloks has one called "Kapow! Blok Bots Fighting League", and also buildable Halo figures. Ionix also has Tenkai Knights buildable figures. Those are just the ones I know of from store shelves and the Internet.

...Aand many competitors of Bionicle tend to be axed after a year or two 5 seems to be their max. If not counting in Transformers. If something kills constraction, or Lego in general it's not because of some other theme, but because of those cash crab mobile games that take kids attention and of what I have a deep hatred for. Many of them tend to bee unethical in their business model, have poor quality overall and are hurting both game and toyindustry. The idea that I should be thankful for Rovio for what they did for our country is sickening.

[TwistLaw]

If something kills constraction, or Lego in general it's not because of some other theme, but because of those cash crab mobile games that take kids attention and of what I have a deep hatred for. Many of them tend to bee unethical in their business model, have poor quality overall and are hurting both game and toyindustry.

If someone kills constraction, or Lego in general it's not because of some other theme, but because of those cash crab Game Boy games that take kids attention and of what I have a deep hatred for. Many of them tend to be unethical in their business model (just look at Pokémon!), have poor quality overall and are hurthing both game and toyindustry. The idea that I should be thankful for SEGA for what they did four our country is sickening.

[TheDesuComplex]

Well, Transformers has one called "Construct-Bots", and also a simpler style called "Hero Mashers" that are more Galidor-ish in terms of using mostly swappable prefab limbs. Mega Bloks has one called "Kapow! Blok Bots Fighting League", and also buildable Halo figures. Ionix also has Tenkai Knights buildable figures. Those are just the ones I know of from store shelves and the Internet.

All of those, as mentioned by TwistLaw, have not met much success if any at all; the only one that seems to get marginal popularity is Tenkai Knights, which even they seem to be on their way out. I feel that Bionicle pretty much stands alone.