Original Bionicle vs CCBS discussion

[Voxovan]

One of the most basic tenets of design is "keep it simple". When folks use twenty technic pieces in an attempt to replicate the form and shape of pieces that already exist in a single-piece solution just to "do something custom", it's an unnecessarily complex design. Not to mention it looks absolutely terrible 98% of the time. Think of the generic Neo-Toa designs over the last ten years, with the double-pin clip based limbs, the heavy technic armoured legs that simply attempt to replicate the lower limbs TLG already produced, etc. There was this strong push in the community in the early-to-mid 2000s to create "everything custom" and to avoid pre-fab solutions, but this is the opposite of smart design. It's one of the things I am referring to when I say strong swaths of the community are "stuck in 2007", because even with a few new elements introduced since then, so many of those technic-heavy complexly-designed MOCs could be timestamped with "2007" and they wouldn't look out of place. Some designs are timeless, sure, but the community as a whole has never stopped moving forward and innovating, from people like Retinence, Brickthing, Djordje, etc. These people push the boundaries and create new standards that the community attempts to replicate and catch-up to.

I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. See, using custom technic builds in places where you can use one prefabricated piece isn't neccesarily a bad thing. And the most important: custom =/= complex, at least, well, not always. I'm a MOCist that focuses mainly on simple designs, but still custom designs. I prefer making custom torsos instead of using, let's say, Inika torsos, even if the latter would be actually more "simple", but at the same time I still try to use as small amount of pieces as possible, and I've seen plenty of MOCists that use the same technique. So yeah, builds that are "100% custom" don't have to be complex, and the other way around - some prefabricated pieces can be covered with so many small pieces and details that it makes them look even more complex than something using few technic parts slapped together.

Besides, as much as I prefer simple designs and use mostly use pre-fabricated pieces for limbs, having 20 or more MOCs with the same pieces used in the same places can get a bit boring, so then I try to use custom builds instead, not "to make it more complex hurr durr" but to try and add something new.

But then, I can understand what you're coming at. I've seen hella lot of MOCs that really use way too many pieces to create something that doesn't really require that. But I don't really think that's the case with the MOC that Frozen has shown - sure, it's not the greatest one (but still not as bad as many people say it is), but definitely isn't "unnecessarily complicated".

[Frozen Assasin]

Can you pm or post some that are worse? In the spirit of learbing and broadening horizons.. :)

Four MOCs. Some of the more sexualized, some less, but all an example of Nuva Boobs.

-> Kranox-tyan by Kranox

- > Toa of Water by AuD

- >Moris, the female Skadi, by Tag

- > Toa Alira by Dzerdan.

BTW - I am not saying anything, but Retience has in fact lost to one of our Russian MOCers during a contest.

[Quisoves Pugnat]

I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. See, using custom technic builds in places where you can use one prefabricated piece isn't neccesarily a bad thing. And the most important: custom =/= complex, at least, well, not always. I'm a MOCist that focuses mainly on simple designs, but still custom designs. I prefer making custom torsos instead of using, let's say, Inika torsos, even if the latter would be actually more "simple", but at the same time I still try to use as small amount of pieces as possible, and I've seen plenty of MOCists that use the same technique. So yeah, builds that are "100% custom" don't have to be complex, and the other way around - some prefabricated pieces can be covered with so many small pieces and details that it makes them look even more complex than something using few technic parts slapped together.

Besides, as much as I prefer simple designs and use mostly use pre-fabricated pieces for limbs, having 20 or more MOCs with the same pieces used in the same places can get a bit boring, so then I try to use custom builds instead, not "to make it more complex hurr durr" but to try and add something new.

But then, I can understand what you're coming at. I've seen hella lot of MOCs that really use way too many pieces to create something that doesn't really require that.

This. The problem isn't, I think, necessarily with using one texture where a simpler one would have done, but with ignoring a piece's texture in the interest of a mosaic-whole. Creating a silhouette, as it were. Obviously, it is possible for textures to clash in other ways, but that's nothing to do with complexity, per se.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Quisoves Pugnat

[VBBN]

Keep the discussion based strictly on the CCBS and BBS building systems. I do not want to see this turn into a contest of who is the best MOCist, which community you think is better, or your opinions on how "sexualized" a plastic toy is..

Let this be a warning and do not veer off topic after this post.

[Junior Shark]

A little late to the party, but in my mind parts are parts are parts (unless they're Jack Stone or Galidor ).

[TwistLaw]

I love how most of the times VVBN posts a warning the discussion dies instantly. He sure knows how to put us straight, but we should also be less timorous.

On topic, as I've often said, I think CCBS lacks the personality BIONICLE had. The visual style in constraction between 2011-2016 hasn't changed much, with sets like Fire Lord (2011) actually having a wider array of pieces than Umarak the Hunter (2016). But try to compare Tahu (2001) and Toa Jaller (2006) and you sure have in front of you a clear evolution, let alone comparing bigger sets like Exo-Toa (2002) to Brutaka (2006). I guess the general stillness of CCBS is what it hurts it the most, preventing the system from expressing its true potential and moreover to be seriosuly appealing to the customers. So far the only CCBS themes we're 100% sure of their success are licensed ones, and this sure doesn't do justice to an otherwise brilliant building system.

[GK733]

So far the only CCBS themes we're 100% sure of their success are licensed ones

I guess the superhero ultrabuilds were so bad everyone just forgot about them.

Let this be a warning and do not veer off topic after this post.

I agree with TwistLaw that if you every time want to sound an alarm when giving an advice it just likely kills the whole discussion.

But I do appreciate we have moderators that do their job.

[TwistLaw]

I guess the superhero ultrabuilds were so bad everyone just forgot about them.

I actually used the word "licensed themes" in order to include the Superhero Ultrabuilds. Otherwise I would have just said "Star Wars".

[TwistLaw]

Also, I'd like to clarify my statement about Fire Lord having a wider array of pieces than UtH.

While the latter has 68 individual pieces VS 46 used by Fire Lord, UtH has a more Technic-heavy build which translates in parts far from influencing the overall aspect of the set. Don't get me wrong, the two sets are obviously different from each other and UtH is by leaps and bounds better than Fire Lord (the first CCBS titan after all), but while Umarak is actually good at showing the evolution of what the designers are able to do with the system, it suffers in my opinion of the limited amount of pieces introduced each year. Torso and head aside, that can't be seen anyway, there are only seven notable pieces (mask, ribcage, feet, Chima horns, blaster, traps, sword) that differentiate it from FL, and all but one of them was introduced in prior years. And the example I'm making is the hardest one to support, since 2016 is the first year in which CCBS aesthetics changed considerably. Tahu 2015 would have made things way easier.

And with a theme afflicted by strong limitations as CCBS is, a system that can be used to build mostly humanoid figures with some exceptions here and there (as opposed to bricks which can do everything), giving a unique feel each year is the first thing that should be made in order to make the system succesful. But then, again, this is a decision LEGO made, not the designers.

[MrHerofan]

Well this is LEGO, so not seeing many new pieces every year is not something out of the ordinary. One of the reasons LEGO almost went bankrupt way back when was because they had made to many specialized molds. They were losing money on making molds that they would only use once. So seeing the current Bionicle not having as many as those types of parts is really nice. It shows on how much more creative you can be, with pretty much the same types of pieces. Introducing a handful of new pieces each year introduces new ways of doing things, as well as expanding into the unknown.

Though on the topic at hand, I prefer the look of G2 better. They look more complete and have less gaps in them. By this I mean in the original system the pieces had many holes and while at the time they were fine, looking back most sets are not that great. It's the great thing about CCBS, that allows for functionality and display value without many if any mods.

[Volthoom]

Yeah I honestly prefer CCBS over Technic because of the smoothness, plus it just looks better. The build experience is the same as it always is for me when I build a Bionicle.

[TwistLaw]

Though on the topic at hand, I prefer the look of G2 better. They look more complete and have less gaps in them. By this I mean in the original system the pieces had many holes and while at the time they were fine, looking back most sets are not that great. It's the great thing about CCBS, that allows for functionality and display value without many if any mods.

Questionable.

The torso is the most glaring part. While in G1 most canister sets had torsos which looked "complete" by any angle (I'm thinking especially about the Mata and Metru torso), with CCBS we have a build that leaves the back empty, and solutions like shells are most of the times not satisfying. The only CCBS sets that managed to have a feasable look from the back (as feasable as it would be in a real robot) have been so far the Okoto and the newer SW sets. The Uniters are an example of how bad torso plate over torso bone looks bad and unnatural from the back. And I'm not saying unnatural as in bad proportions, but as something that looks incomplete and easy to be hit by an enemy.

G1 had similar problems of incompleteness, but in other areas (I'm thinking about sets like Krekka). Besides arms and legs built in CCBS feel less "complete" imho. With a single piece like the Piraka leg you had an acceptable view from the back. But if you put a shell on a leg facing the front, the back looks just empty. This didn't happen very often in G1, if we gotta be honest.

[Junior Shark]

With a single piece like the Piraka leg you had an acceptable view from the back. But if you put a shell on a leg facing the front, the back looks just empty. This didn't happen very often in G1, if we gotta be honest.

+1. I mean, in Journey to One the armor shells were animated all the way around limbs. Why? Because it looks better. Even if G1 armor pieces didn't go completely around limbs, they still sat flush with the bones, thus leaving no unsightly gaps.

[MrHerofan]

I still stand that G2 in general looks better than G1. While the backs might look "empty" the new pieces introduce ways to combat that look. G1 Bionicle had so many gaps in the parts, and while they were there for building purposes, the end product did not look that good. The Ignika build featured 'gorilla" arms, and while there might have been a few good sets, they were outliers compared to the rest of the line. G2 has kept this consistency with its figures by having similar proportions and having the end product look better. In my personal opinion G2 looks better than G1. G1 gave off that mechanical look while G2 is more like Gundam by having solid limbs, not over done with pistons.

[TwistLaw]

Different strokes for different folks, that's completely fine.

G1 and G2 are speaking two different languages, but I think both do a great job in expressing themselves. G1 was more steampunk and vaguely organic, G2 is smooth and generic enough to blend pretty well with the rest of the CCBS. And if we can say such things without troubles, it means they actually managed to do what they were designed for.

Yet, I strongly disagree with the statement that G1 had few good sets, but that's your opinion and I respect it.

[Lord-Vorahk]

In terms of aesthetics, I actually prefer G1, I think. The CCBS aesthetic is nice and clean, and I love it, But I really don't like the Uniters much. I think it's the new torso. It's too long, and the waist pivot doesn't look all that good, making the figure look really thin and skeletal whenever it turns. The over-use of grey bones on sets where it's not part of the colour scheme is getting worse now that I've run out of black ones to sub in. They're still using the same hands and feet from 2011. And the amount of gold, silver, and trans pieces is frankly ridiculous. Especially with the trans shells. Layering a trans shell on a solid bone means that the bone is clearly visible through the shell, and often looks dodgy.

G1 isn't perfect, but CCBS isn't really advancing, and if anything, the designs are decreasing in quality from last year's Toa.

As for the Inika having long arms, it's not like long arms were a new thing for 2006. That's just a thing that arose from BZP marking down every new 2006-2009 set for not having "Human proportions", and praising the 2.0 sets for it despite having equal-length arms and legs, clown feet, and fists the size of their faces, and neither party being humans.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Lord-Vorahk

[MakutaOfWar]

^The Inika builds felt closer to human proportions than the 2.0 builds to me, I actually really dislike the 2.0's, to tell the truth. I feel like last year's Gali, Lewa, Kopaka, and Tahu(just almost) nailed those proportions though, this year not so much.

As for feet, allow me to sum this up;

Bionicle G1- 15 foot molds including the Tohunga, not including Visorak's.

CCBS- 4...

[Lord-Vorahk]

Don't forget that G1's foot pieces were a lot more versatile because they didn't tend to have molded-in sockets. A foot could easily become armour of some sort, like Metru ones becoming shinguards or Hordika ones becoming chestplates. And one of the ones that did have a molded socket, the Mata foot, made the socket flush with the shape of the foot, so all it needs is a technic ball in the socket and it looks fine as armour (I've got several MOCs that use the piece as a thighs).

I've made this argument way back when I first joined the forum, but unless your character is explicitly a human, giving a constraction figure human proportions shouldn't be a top priority. Especially if it's meant to fit into the Matoran universe where long arms and wide shoulders are an established trend.

[TwistLaw]

I've made this argument way back when I first joined the forum, but unless your character is explicitly a human, giving a constraction figure human proportions shouldn't be a top priority. Especially if it's meant to fit into the Matoran universe where long arms and wide shoulders are an established trend.

This, so much. I never, NEVER understood why proportions were such a big deal for people when BIONICLE characters were neither human neither "well proportioned" since the beginning.

Besides, while we got just two "hands" mold in G1 (well, actually one...), the variety and versatility of feet pieces is an undisputed advantage G1 has over CCBS.

Now that I think about it, we had new feet pieces without interruptions from 2001 until 2007. My god.

[Aanchir]

As for the Inika having long arms, it's not like long arms were a new thing for 2006. That's just a thing that arose from BZP marking down every new 2006-2009 set for not having "Human proportions", and praising the 2.0 sets for it despite having equal-length arms and legs, clown feet, and fists the size of their faces, and neither party being humans.

The Inika were not the first sets to have disproportionately long arms, but treating it as equivalent to the Mata or Nuva is a bit disingenuous. The Mata and Nuva still had their wrists more or less lined up with their thighs (not too unrealistic), while the Inika had their wrists lined up with their knees. I don't think anybody has ever tried to claim that the Inika were the first or the only sets with weird proportions. What's more, many people in the Bionicle community have been complaining about the Inika's "gorilla arms" since the 2006 sets came out. If you think it's just a post-hoc complaint that sprung up as a way of validating the 2.0 heroes' proportions you're kidding yourself.

It's true, Bionicle characters are not humans and their proportions do not have to be humanoid. However, that doesn't mean proportional changes are utterly meaningless. Making the shoulders or hips wider or narrower, making the arms or legs longer or shorter... these things change how people see the characters. A character with unrealistically wide shoulders will typically look powerful and burly, while a character with unrealistically narrow shoulders will typically look slight and delicate. A character with unrealistically long arms will often look somewhat cartoonish and ungainly, like an orangutan. Sometimes you might want those things, other times you might not. So the fact that Bionicle proportions don't need to look realistic doesn't mean that the WAYS they're unrealistic shouldn't matter to people. Some people are just more bothered by unrealistically long arms than by unrealistically large hands or feet, and that doesn't somehow make them hypocrites.

Now, if a person were to praise the proportions of one set and denigrate the proportions of another that were actually largely unchanged? THEN they might need a reality check. But generally, that's not something I see happen too often.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Aanchir

[Master_Data]

^The Inika builds felt closer to human proportions than the 2.0 builds to me, I actually really dislike the 2.0's, to tell the truth. I feel like last year's Gali, Lewa, Kopaka, and Tahu(just almost) nailed those proportions though, this year not so much.

As for feet, allow me to sum this up;

Bionicle G1- 15 foot molds including the Tohunga, not including Visorak's.

CCBS- 4...

I agree with this completely. Last year was the first time I actually liked a CCBS set.

[CabooseBM]

It's true, Bionicle characters are not humans and their proportions do not have to be humanoid. However, that doesn't mean proportional changes are utterly meaningless. Making the shoulders or hips wider or narrower, making the arms or legs longer or shorter... these things change how people see the characters. A character with unrealistically wide shoulders will typically look powerful and burly, while a character with unrealistically narrow shoulders will typically look slight and delicate. A character with unrealistically long arms will often look somewhat cartoonish and ungainly, like an orangutan. Sometimes you might want those things, other times you might not. So the fact that Bionicle proportions don't need to look realistic doesn't mean that the WAYS they're unrealistic shouldn't matter to people. Some people are just more bothered by unrealistically long arms than by unrealistically large hands or feet, and that doesn't somehow make them hypocrites.

I think this paragraph does a fantastic job of summing up why people complained about G1 Toa sets since about 2006. Sure, they don't have to be humanoid but none of them looked like they were intended to be that way. Very few G1 sets looked like they had a character design in mind and often didn't tell you much about the characters. 2015 Toa were so fantastic because they were designed from the ground up as characters. Onua is BIG and STRONG. Kopaka is ARMORED and STOIC. Lewa is LANKY and AGILE. Tahu is HEROIC and POWERFUL. Gali is SMOOTH and a GIRL.

Well, okay, that last one isn't as great an example, but that comes with the territory of having only one girl character. This is also why Pohatu seems so bland at first glance. His design doesn't immediately say something about him, so despite being a cool figure he isn't held in high regard. Emphasizing his asymmetry would have done wonders for his design, and he'd really come off as ROUGH and WORN like his character.

In addition, it is this utter lack of thoughtful character design that ultimately brings down the 2016 Toa.

Edited April 22, 2016 by CabooseBM

[Voxovan]

In addition, it is this utter lack of thoughtful character design that ultimately brings down the 2016 Toa.

What is that lack you speak about? Because last time I checked, 2016 Onua was still being the most bulky and strong of the group, thanks to his massive shoulderpads and extra-bulked up torso, Lewa and Gali the most agile with their slimmer looks, Tahu the most powerful looking with the massive usage of transparent orange pieces that make him look as he's made of pure elemental energy, etc. etc. The new Toa still have their own distinguishing features that make them unique in one way or another, and the big amount of hyper-detailed pieces they use make them stand out from their previous forms, which sadly can't be sad about older CCBS sets, which looked like the exact same thing with some pieces swapped here and there, due to the repetitiveness of the pieces they were build from.

[TwistLaw]

What is that lack you speak about? Because last time I checked, 2016 Onua was still being the most bulky and strong of the group, thanks to his massive shoulderpads and extra-bulked up torso, Lewa and Gali the most agile with their slimmer looks, Tahu the most powerful looking with the massive usage of transparent orange pieces that make him look as he's made of pure elemental energy, etc. etc. The new Toa still have their own distinguishing features that make them unique in one way or another, and the big amount of hyper-detailed pieces they use make them stand out from their previous forms, which sadly can't be sad about older CCBS sets, which looked like the exact same thing with some pieces swapped here and there, due to the repetitiveness of the pieces they were build from.

THIS

MY GOD

YES

So much truth in a single post.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

To me Tahu looks very powerful due to all the gold. I know many hate the amount of gold on Tahu but I think it works and makes him look somewhat majestic, like Dio with his orange jumpsuit with green hearts in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.