Pelly's Paradise Day One: Huh?

[Lind Whisperer]

So what are your reasons?

After thinking it over more - not really any, other than that I still like his logic. But there's not enough to any of his posts to get enough of a town-read to justify voting him as vig.

I'm switching my vote to Brickelodeon alone - I am getting enough of a town-read off of her/him(?) to justify that.

Also, pre-sign me up for the next Mafia School. I clearly need it. Or more sleep. Probably both.

Also, Heroica - what?? Do you have any idea how mafia works?

I was saying that I was afraid I was being subconsciously influenced by the fact I admire him as a Heroica player, not that I was basing it off of my experiences with him in regards to Heroica...

[Brickelodeon]

Let's get this straight. I am male.

[Bob]

Agreed; if we assign someone timelines should not matter.

As for the possible vig target; has anyone given thought to what I said earlier where we could confide our preferred targets to a person who is trusted or confirmed and this person to relay the information to the person holding the vig headgear.

If most of us throw out possible targets for the vig, there's no way the scum would know which person was actually being targeted.

As for nominating tomorrow's vigilante, assuming that the shift schedule stays the same, it'll be awhile until the second round goes up. I think we should wait until early the next day to decide who to pick. If we nominate someone today, there's a chance that the scum might kill this player tonight or otherwise tamper with them. We could learn a lot during the night cycle, perhaps we should wait until early tomorrow to decide. We can always make a shortlist of people who we think should be nominated, but I'm not sure if we should decide outright today.

When it comes for voting today, I'm at a bit of a loss. I'm not getting much on the Flash, but Mary Jane did ping me quite a bit earlier with suggesting a no-lynch. Could she have simply not read the rules? It's possible, but maybe there's something more sinister behind it. At the same time, I don't know if I want to vote for her simply based on that. It's tough, nobody has really jumped out at me today except for her and Gandolf, with the latter mentioning that the Joker is clear because he's reputable in Heroica. There's still around 24 hours left today. I'm going to have to think about this one a little more.

[Shadows]

I'm going to put this out here for consideration. If I was scum, which I am not, and fortunate enough to pull the vig role for day 1, I'd probably want to find a way to let it be known, have people assume I was town, and then use that trust to manipulate the kills of the future vigs for days. Those kills would, naturally, all be townies, and everyone would shrug and say "it's a tough role, mistakes will happen, they always do." And then some number of days later, my team would grab it and make the final necessary kill to win.

Not saying that's happening here, but it keeps nagging at me.

[MagPiesRUs]

My preferrence would have been to keep the vig role secret I think, until we actually needed to know it. That could have tricked the scum into using it for their own means, then later we may have caught one of them out. Lost opportunity there. My concer now is that the role could easily be passed around amoung the scum and used by them with the classic "opps I killed another townie, oh well" line. Scum will also have input into any sort of secondary vote that is run, meaning they have a chance to manipulate the vig into killing a townie each night, or manipulate the town into choosing the target they want.

On the other hand, publicly deciding on a vig also gives us another type of voting we can analyse. If the scum want to draw attention to themselves by voting for each other, they're free to do that. I feel like that is less harmful than letting them keep hold of a kill role in the hope that we'll eventually catch them out somehow.

I'm not particularly convinced by any of the cases, so I'm going to go with my gut at the moment. Vote: Iron Patriot (fhomess)

He's only made one proper post so there's not much to analyse here, but this comment sort of rubs me the wrong way. The whole "speculate on scum abilities, then tease them about it" thing.

The scum can move the kill ability around, so they get something extra to balance out their own ability? Or are you saying they get something extra because Pelly told us that they can move the kill around? In that case, couldn't moving the kill around be the extra thing they get? Maybe one of them will be so kind as to tell us what it is... please?

[def]

Vote Tally

JackJonespaw 1 (stickfig)

Walter Kovacs 2 (Brickelodeon, jluck)

fhomess 1 (TinyPies)

roughly 22 hours left

[MagPiesRUs]

Mencot, I'm a little confused by your changing opinion on what to do with the vig costume. At first you seemed to agree that we should reveal it:

First time playing this kind of mafia, I agree that the kill roles should be known to town.

Is it Okay (not ok-ey) to reveal them in thread or is it some how under penalty? Guess not but don't wanna risk anything.

Then when Dragonfire suggested the same thing, you jumped down his throat:

Why, so the scum

Could take it?

One day one we should not do any such thing.

When every town player is vanilla, we will have a hard time to find eachother.

The only one that should reveal is the One getting lynched.

And when Tammo finally revealed his role and suggested voting for the costume, you said:

Great idea

Can you explain your thought process here?

[Mencot]

As I said this is my first time playing this kind of mafia, so I am been and probably still will be confused about some stuff.

What my opinion is now that the vig role is out, that we should vote on other days or then as someone said, Let the investigated player have it, if he is town and taking in consideration the Godfather role.

Iam also of that opinion that the lynched player should say what the power of the costume was, so that the scum can't miss use something later.

Still don't know who to vote for but I Wonder why so many seem to think Brickladeon is so town, this is day one folks!

[mostlytechnic]

I'm going to put this out here for consideration. If I was scum, which I am not, and fortunate enough to pull the vig role for day 1, I'd probably want to find a way to let it be known, have people assume I was town, and then use that trust to manipulate the kills of the future vigs for days. Those kills would, naturally, all be townies, and everyone would shrug and say "it's a tough role, mistakes will happen, they always do." And then some number of days later, my team would grab it and make the final necessary kill to win.

Not saying that's happening here, but it keeps nagging at me.

Dang you're paranoid and devious! You'd really do that, as opposed to not revealing it? With scum having 4-6 people in here, they oughta be able to grab the vig helmet first and keep it in their hands pretty well for a few days before anyone caught on. That's the way i'd go as scum. Simpler. And they'd have the big advantage of directly controlling the vig kill as opposed to having to manipulate town to hopefully do what they want. As it stands, we have removed the vig ability from scum's use since to take the helmet would be outing themselves. And they can't afford to sacrifice 1 scum to kill 1 townie.

Now, in the setting that we're in, I'm sure the scum WILL try to manipulate who gets it and who gets targeted, so we'll have to watch for that just like we watch the voting. But like TPRU pointed out, we actually get MORE information this way since we've got multiple "voting" patterns to look at.

[Zepher]

My thoughts on the vig: by it being out in the open, there is a problem in deciding collectively who the vig should target as if the target is scum, they will block it. Of course, that could lead to us assuming the position of "if the vig is blocked we lynch the vig's target". My concern however is that if the scum have that information, it could be manipulated in some way. It also means if they know the vig is targeting a townie, they won't try to kill that townie, basically giving an extra kill in the scum's favour each night. By the time the vig targets someone on the scum team, we may be so low on numbers that they can afford to block it and then talk it off.

Those are all good points, but I still think it's best for the town if it's in the open. The scum would be bound to find it soon enough - they just have more searching power than we do. The town would be in the dark then, and they could pass it around for a couple of days pretty safely. And even if it is blocked, if we have a watcher action we could find out WHO was blocking it. It's really best to have it in the open.

Let's get this straight. I am male.

Thank you!

As for nominating tomorrow's vigilante, assuming that the shift schedule stays the same, it'll be awhile until the second round goes up. I think we should wait until early the next day to decide who to pick. If we nominate someone today, there's a chance that the scum might kill this player tonight or otherwise tamper with them. We could learn a lot during the night cycle, perhaps we should wait until early tomorrow to decide. We can always make a shortlist of people who we think should be nominated, but I'm not sure if we should decide outright today.

Absolutely agree. On top of that, it'd be good to have the results of the night in before we start to think about who we can trust and who we can't.

[StickFig]

Yes.

Vote: (Mary Jane) Jack Jonespaw

...is that it, mate? Nothing else? Just yes? I'll say this again, all I was presenting was a hypothetical scenario, I never was pushing for a no-lynch.

Yep, that's it. It's day one, nothing anyone else has done seems nearly as out there as suggesting a no-lynch. Even if you weren't pushing hard, you tried to put it into our heads, and that's unacceptable behavior from my perspective.

And I also, as Dragonfire mentioned, received the statement that all town players are vanilla in my role PM.

Yep, and thanks for the writeboard.

Shouldn't tomorrows vig be the person who is investigated? (if they are town)

This. Whoever has the investigator costume starts the town block tonight. (Pretty sure this is all basic Mafia stuff though.)

My thoughts on the vig: by it being out in the open, there is a problem in deciding collectively who the vig should target as if the target is scum, they will block it. Of course, that could lead to us assuming the position of "if the vig is blocked we lynch the vig's target". My concern however is that if the scum have that information, it could be manipulated in some way. It also means if they know the vig is targeting a townie, they won't try to kill that townie, basically giving an extra kill in the scum's favour each night. By the time the vig targets someone on the scum team, we may be so low on numbers that they can afford to block it and then talk it off.

I feel like all of this was covered before you said it, and that whole post just feels suspicious to me.

Also, pre-sign me up for the next Mafia School. I clearly need it.

This excuse is going to get old pretty quickly.

Let's get this straight. I am male.

Wait, what? As a closet feminist, I must now denounce you as scum!

I'm going to put this out here for consideration. If I was scum, which I am not, and fortunate enough to pull the vig role for day 1, I'd probably want to find a way to let it be known, have people assume I was town, and then use that trust to manipulate the kills of the future vigs for days. Those kills would, naturally, all be townies, and everyone would shrug and say "it's a tough role, mistakes will happen, they always do." And then some number of days later, my team would grab it and make the final necessary kill to win.

I was thinking something along these lines earlier, but I couldn't get it all to click. How can we find out if this has happened?

I vote that the investigator investigates Tamamono tonight. My vig kill vote is for Dragonator.

[Piratedave84]

Yep, that's it. It's day one, nothing anyone else has done seems nearly as out there as suggesting a no-lynch. Even if you weren't pushing hard, you tried to put it into our heads, and that's unacceptable behavior from my perspective.

Yep, and thanks for the writeboard.

This. Whoever has the investigator costume starts the town block tonight. (Pretty sure this is all basic Mafia stuff though.)

I feel like all of this was covered before you said it, and that whole post just feels suspicious to me.

This excuse is going to get old pretty quickly.

Wait, what? As a closet feminist, I must now denounce you as scum!

I was thinking something along these lines earlier, but I couldn't get it all to click. How can we find out if this has happened?

I vote that the investigator investigates Tamamono tonight. My vig kill vote is for Dragonator.

Oh so fluffy!

Do you not have an opinion of your own? I think we have sufficient topics being discussed that you can at leafs make an effort to make up your own mind on at least one of them.

We can't tell the investigator who to investigate; too much room for scum to did out which costume it is.

You know what, I'll vote: superman (stickfig)

[def]

Vote Tally

JackJonespaw 1 (stickfig)

Walter Kovacs 2 (Brickelodeon, jluck)

fhomess 1 (TinyPies)

Stickfig 1 (PirateDave)

13 hours left, and remember, voting is mandatory. Anyone who fails to vote will have a vote penalty tomorrow.

[Walter Kovacs]

@ jluck: I'm sorry you found my early PM scummy. But I've said it in previous games, I like to talk to players privately, and liberally use PMs on Day 1. Usually early PMs are merely Ice-breakers. It's the way I play, and if you look at my record, I've started as Town in every single game I've played (why do I suddenly see meta-game votes coming my way; "he's never been scum before, he must be scum now" ).

There have been very few scummy posts up till now. Jack is a possibility, as I was the one who proposed him as a candidate. fhomess hasn't said much of anything yet, could he be laying low? But the thing that strikes me most is StickFig's blind, reasonless vote for Jack. It could be mis-guided Townie, but it sticks in my craw. So for now I'll:

Vote: Superman (Stickfig)

Don't consider this set in stone. There's plenty of time to change my vote if someone else comes across as scummy.

[jluck]

@ jluck: I'm sorry you found my early PM scummy. But I've said it in previous games, I like to talk to players privately, and liberally use PMs on Day 1. Usually early PMs are merely Ice-breakers. It's the way I play, and if you look at my record, I've started as Town in every single game I've played (why do I suddenly see meta-game votes coming my way; "he's never been scum before, he must be scum now" ).

(Snip)

Walter, don't get me wrong, that's not the reason I voted for you In fact, if I recall correctly I didn't point out your early PM as a reason for suspicion at all, I just wanted to be interest above board with our interaction. I actually prefer folks to PM, this game should be played on multiple layers and you've always opened lines of communication. All this stated however, my reasons for my vote still stand. I just can't escape this nagging feeling about you.

[Walter Kovacs]

One more thing. Time is a bit short, so in accordance with the majority's wishes, I will let everyone know what the Flash cowl does, as I am currently set to be lynched.

When chosen, the wearer gains a Thief ability, and is able to steal one item before the Day phase is out. They can use whatever ability the new item has during the following Night phase. If the item I stole has a Night ability, the player who originally stole it will get a message that their ability failed during the night.

I am not sure if the Flash cowl will be lost, or the item I stole will be lost if I am lynched. I have asked Pelly for clarification. It might be best if I AM lynched, now that the scum know which item holds the Vig ability. I will let you know what Pelly comes back with.

I will let the player who's item I stole that I have it.

Walter, don't get me wrong, that's not the reason I voted for you In fact, if I recall correctly I didn't point out your early PM as a reason for suspicion at all, I just wanted to be interest above board with our interaction. I actually prefer folks to PM, this game should be played on multiple layers and you've always opened lines of communication. All this stated however, my reasons for my vote still stand. I just can't escape this nagging feeling about you.

Fair enough. Day 1 lynches are always tough, and No-lynch is not an option in this game. All I ask is that you aren't disappointed on Day 2.

[mostlytechnic]

Wow. Jumping the gun walter, or are you going to be away? There's still 3/4 of the votes to be placed, so I don't think it was time yet to reveal your ability.

However, it's done. SO...

Now the debate will start about what costumes are the most valuable and have to be "reserved" for confirmed townies. Vig is obvious. A kill is the most powerful ability. But as walter pointed out, thief is pretty powerful too since the scum could use it to steal the vig ability.

Also, if I'm reading it right, the thief ability would let a day ability be used twice. The original owner could use it during the day, and then the thief use it again during the night. That might be a VERY powerful ability, depending on what day abilities are out there! (for example, if the investigator was a day ability, getting to investigate TWO people per day/night cycle would be huge for scumhunting AND building the town block) So much so that if the thief ability is still here tomorrow AND we know a townie has it, people with really useful day abilities should tell the thief so their ability can be reused at night. Odds are we won't have multiple confirmed townies tomorrow, so the vig ability goes first and we might have to wait till day 3 for the thief ability to be used like this.

[Walter Kovacs]

If it's a Day ability, I doubt you could re-use it at night. More likely that if the Day ability has been used before the theft, then the thief couldn't re-use it. If the Day ability hadn't been used, then the Thief gets to choose the target.

But there's no proof that any abilities are Day abilities. Except for Thief, which is a Day ability by necessity. Gotta know what item is stolen before Night actions can be submitted.

[Brickelodeon]

Okay, I think that we either need to get rid of flash's helmet for good, or reserve it for only confirmed townies. I have some great logic that I don't have time to post at the moment, but I will be back later to give another option for Flash's helmet, and how it can be used greatly to the towns advantage.

[mostlytechnic]

If it's a Day ability, I doubt you could re-use it at night. More likely that if the Day ability has been used before the theft, then the thief couldn't re-use it. If the Day ability hadn't been used, then the Thief gets to choose the target.

But there's no proof that any abilities are Day abilities. Except for Thief, which is a Day ability by necessity. Gotta know what item is stolen before Night actions can be submitted.

Well, since you said (I assume you were paraphrasing your costume PM) that IF the costume you steal has a night ability... so that would mean there's stuff either with no ability or day ability. You're right, it's possible there's no other day abilities and there's just night or nothing, but it's also possible there's other day abilities we need to use this to boost. Or I'm misunderstanding it and pelly will have to step in and clarify :)

[Walter Kovacs]

I've gotten clarification from Pelly. The Flash cowl IS a Night action, the choice has to be made during the day for a smooth Night action Phase. That suggests that no actions are Day actions. Not proof, but...

I've left the choice of my lynch in Brickelodeon's court. Thief could be very powerful in Town hands, but is just plain deadly in Scum hands, especially since they know the location of the Vig item (and, presumably, 4 or 5 more abilities).

[Dragonfire]

I don't like that you're trying to get on my good side by parroting my reads...

Neither do I.

After thinking it over more - not really any, other than that I still like his logic. But there's not enough to any of his posts to get enough of a town-read to justify voting him as vig.

So now you're backtracking.

Vote: Gandalf (Lind Whisperer). I think this is pretty self-explanatory. If anyone wants further explanation, please ask.

I'm going to put this out here for consideration. If I was scum, which I am not, and fortunate enough to pull the vig role for day 1, I'd probably want to find a way to let it be known, have people assume I was town, and then use that trust to manipulate the kills of the future vigs for days. Those kills would, naturally, all be townies, and everyone would shrug and say "it's a tough role, mistakes will happen, they always do." And then some number of days later, my team would grab it and make the final necessary kill to win.

Not saying that's happening here, but it keeps nagging at me.

Even though it's a viable option, it's risky and doesn't really benefit the scum. At the time of Joker's reveal, quite a lot of people were either against the vig costume outing or had no opinion. As scum, Joker could just have stayed quiet, killed a townie tonight and then tomorrow, another scum could just pick the costume, enabling them to have two kills per night. That is far more beneficial than what you are suggesting - but then again, it is the Joker we're talking about - anything is possible

I vote that the investigator investigates Tamamono tonight. My vig kill vote is for Dragonator.

Haven't we already discussed that letting the scum know the targets is a big no-no? Come on, mate.

There have been very few scummy posts up till now. Jack is a possibility, as I was the one who proposed him as a candidate. fhomess hasn't said much of anything yet, could he be laying low? But the thing that strikes me most is StickFig's blind, reasonless vote for Jack. It could be mis-guided Townie, but it sticks in my craw. So for now I'll:

Vote: Superman (Stickfig)

Superman's vote was reasonless? I believe he voted because of Mary Jane's comment about the No-Lynch. You're only voting for him because it ties the lynch between you and him.

One more thing. Time is a bit short, so in accordance with the majority's wishes, I will let everyone know what the Flash cowl does, as I am currently set to be lynched.

Don't flail, please. You have two votes on you, and quite a few people don't want you lynched. There's no reason to claim this early.

When chosen, the wearer gains a Thief ability, and is able to steal one item before the Day phase is out. They can use whatever ability the new item has during the following Night phase. If the item I stole has a Night ability, the player who originally stole it will get a message that their ability failed during the night.

I am not sure if the Flash cowl will be lost, or the item I stole will be lost if I am lynched. I have asked Pelly for clarification. It might be best if I AM lynched, now that the scum know which item holds the Vig ability. I will let you know what Pelly comes back with.

The Flash Cowl will probably be lost if you are lynched.

Now that you've revealed your role, we don't need to lynch you (assuming you're telling the truth). We can just observe who takes the Flash Cowl tomorrow, or control who takes it.

[Lady K]

After reading everything carefully, a couple of things come to mind. I still feel uneasy about the items abilities being revealed too soon, but I also understand the logic behind those who fully supported the idea. As for the idea of who to suggest take certain items each day, I agree.

As for who to lynch today, Stickfig really strikes me as the best target. This game has been different already in that there was very little fluff from most in the beginning. Stickfig however really hasn't voice an opinion or given an idea at all.

Why was Superman's Cape not an option?! I demand to know why Superman's Cape was left off the list!

So, what do we do now?

Ok, so basic day 1 stuff, but he could have suggested what to do instead of asking. Day 1 is based of all our talking to help weed out who is the lynch choice. No different for this game.

Excellent!

Yes.

Vote: (Mary Jane) Jack Jonespaw

Excellent, "revenge wondering".

Defense noted.

Read the rules!

His second post and he is the first one to vote for someone. But he does so without any reasons, gut feelings, or speculations.

Hooray for being on the 'wrong' side of the world... might as well be the dark side of the moon.

A nice fluffy statement for post three. No substance.

Yep, that's it. It's day one, nothing anyone else has done seems nearly as out there as suggesting a no-lynch. Even if you weren't pushing hard, you tried to put it into our heads, and that's unacceptable behavior from my perspective.

Yep, and thanks for the writeboard.

This. Whoever has the investigator costume starts the town block tonight. (Pretty sure this is all basic Mafia stuff though.)

I feel like all of this was covered before you said it, and that whole post just feels suspicious to me.

This excuse is going to get old pretty quickly.

Wait, what? As a closet feminist, I must now denounce you as scum!

I was thinking something along these lines earlier, but I couldn't get it all to click. How can we find out if this has happened?

I vote that the investigator investigates Tamamono tonight. My vig kill vote is for Dragonator.

And his fourth post bothers me the most. Still no original ideas, no hunches, no reasons. But the last sentence really bothers me. Suggesting who the investigator investigate and who the vig should kill. Again no reasons give. But the two names he suggested are two of only five that have played this type of game before. That in my book is suspicious. And when combined with fluff, lack of reasons for who he voted for, no real contributions, he gets my vote.

Vote: Superman (Stickfig)

[def]

Vote Tally

JackJonespaw 1 (stickfig)

Walter Kovacs 2 (Brickelodeon, jluck)

fhomess 1 (TinyPies)

Stickfig 3 (PirateDave, Walter Kovacs, Lady K)

10.5 hours left.

[Walter Kovacs]

You're only voting for him because it ties the lynch between you and him.

Not true. Don't forget, in case of a tie, the person who reached the number of votes first is the one lynched, which still points to me. Although Lady K's subsequent vote takes me off the hook, for now.

And I clearly stated my vote wasn't set in stone.

The Flash Cowl will disappear if I am Lynched. At this point, I'm not certain that's a bad thing for Town. It certainly can help the Town, but in the Scum's hands? *shudder*