[WIP] Perpetual Motion Machine

[Josephiah]

Heat is work and work's a curse And all the heat in the universe It's gonna cool down as it can't increase Then there'll be no more work And they'll be perfect peace Really? Yeah, that's entropy, man!

Ah, Flanders & Swann, excellent!

[bonox]

i'm glad someone got it :)

[Boxerlego]

Actually, it's mathematically impossible. The universe is constantly moving towards a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. All systems, even those that are considered reversible and adiabatic, can never decrease their entropy. It's a fool's errand to try.

Consider this: noise, heat, friction, are all sources of energy loss. Any perpetual motion machine would have to overcome such losses, therefore, the device would not only need to sustain it's energy, it much actually augment it. It's a something-from-nothing scenario. You might be able to build a machine that runs for a billion years, but it can't go on for literally ever.

If the universe is constantly moving towards a state of thermodynamic equilibrium then that means the universe must enter in a state of rest but on the other hand the universe is said to always be expanding out and in order to expand you need to have a place that is full of energy otherwise if there is no energy then there is no motion. If the universe is in fact a closed system then we should treat universe like that, theories like worm holes, time travel, and the sort lead us to ideas to suggest that the universe is in fact not a closed system and allows for energy to go to one place to another with no solid path of travel. Consider this you have a bucket that is holding water (potential energy) I make a hole in the top of the bucket only water from the top of the bucket will escape (this turns the top portion of potential energy to kinetic energy) if the hole was at the bottom then all the water can escape (Which means all potential energy converted to kinetic energy). The Universe has no top and bottom so how the energy flows out these holes and where it goes means the universe is able to recycle itself to a new universe. Thus making the universe proof with in itself a contribution to the reality of Perpetual motion.

Now for the most part your right, its a machine that can run for a billion years, but it can't go on for literally ever.

Silicon has a lower density when solid than when liquid. There is also a very good explanation as to why water is denser than its frozen form.

About solar panels: One day, the sun will die and so will the energy provided by it. So solar panels and the sun are not a PPM. Think of it this way: every object has a finite amount of energy in it. A battery, the sun, a drop of gasoline, even a grain of sand. The energy is stored in the atoms that make up the object. When atoms stop moving (at 0 Kelvin), all the energy is gone from the object. Since transferring that energy to another object always incurs losses (no matter how minute), your perpetual motion machine will eventually run out energy. It will also never create more energy than is stored in it, even if there were no losses.

Unless you can provide scientific proof to back up your assertion that perpetual motions can exist, this discussion is moot. Changing naming conventions and stating your beliefs/feelings about the subject is not an effective way to convince anyone that you can break the laws of thermodynamics.

Wow, that is amazing about silicon. I never knew that. Thanks for link to such amazing information.

Scientific proof is all around for both assertions. It doesn't matter in the end about beliefs/feeling everybody is going to have there own and so be it, I dont need to convince anybody that is just going to created more problems. If you can heal a blind man sight only the blind man will see the outcome.

[9v system]

Is there a video of this thing running?

[Boxerlego]

There is no video of it right now, I haven't made the magnet rotor yet.

[Sylvian]

http://m.economictim...ow/46832793.cms

Just stumbled across this.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Sylvian

[Sylvian]

The breakthrough for Tewari, a former director of the Kaiga Atomic Power Station, came last year when his machine achieved an efficiency of 238%, which means it produced 2.38 times the electrical power provided to it initially, making it the first to achieve this. This essentially defies the Law of Conservation of Energy - and in the case of electrical generators, Lenz's Law, which forms the basis of mechanics and thermodynamics laws that suggests machines cannot attain over a 100% efficiency. KPCL has deputed a team of engineers to evaluate the machine. "We have reviewed the product. The evaluations and analysis have been submitted to the managing director for the final approval (to use in the Kappatagudda windmill project)," one of the KPCL engineers said, requesting anonymity. The generator requires an initial infusion of power through a battery or AC supply, following which it produces power sustaining itself on electrons in a vacuum, without requiring external supply. "Space is the only reality, and has the potential to produce massive amounts of power if put through right technology," said Tewari, who has applied for an international patent for his device in the US. 

[bonox]

Often the simplest way to address claims of efficiency > 100% is that you're not measuring things correctly, drawing the system boundary incorrectly or just not understanding something - for example where are the electrons in space vacuum coming from?

One often cited example is people claiming heat pumps with efficiency of 200% because the heat moved is double the electrical input. The answer to that one is the efficiency of the pump is measured based on energy in/out of the pump, and nothing to do with the potential energy transported by the device. You could make the same erroneous argument of comparing engine efficiency between a car and a mining truck because of the difference in payload being carried.

I also wish people would understand that applying for patents (whether they are granted or not) not not imply anything useful about the idea.

All those would be good reasons for people to take a paycheque for analysing something but refusing to put their name against it. Nothing quite like 'anonymous' analysts to make you doubt claims.

[DrJB]

http://m.economictim...ow/46832793.cms

Just stumbled across this.

Seems I'm reading the Enquirer or some other tabloid. Just one word: Really?

[Sylvian]

I dont know.. could be another hoax, but i reckon you are smart enough do some looking into it yourself ;)

[Rockbrick]

Boxerlego! on this forum we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

...

Edited April 21, 2015 by Rockbrick

[DrJB]

I can already guess what we'll see next year, around this same time: A lego Time Machine, with Linear actuators, long pneumatics, and maybe one EV3-II

Edited April 21, 2015 by DrJB

[Sylvian]

@DrJB

You have made your point well and clear.

Still I salute Boxerlego for his sheer effort. But hiding behind known theories in order to dissaprove someones creative process,.. meh.

He doesnt deserve to be ridiculed like this.

Btw, the reason i posted the link,. I thought it would fit this topic and might be of interest to atleast Boxerlego.

For that matter i dont always need to have an opinion, but lets say keeping an open mind works both ways.

[DrJB]

@DrJB

You have made your point well and clear.

Still I salute Boxerlego for his sheer effort. But hiding behind known theories in order to dissaprove someones creative process,.. meh.

He doesnt deserve to be ridiculed like this.

Btw, the reason i posted the link,. I thought it would fit this topic and might be of interest to atleast Boxerlego.

For that matter i dont always need to have an opinion, but lets say keeping an open mind works both ways.

Waow!!! Did you read my earlier posts 'defending' him? Or you simply skimmed through and reached your OWN 'superficial' assumptions? Let's not be personal here, he put a lot of work (JB-weld thread) to fool us and many of us fell for it. In my book, he succeeded! He did admit himself this was a joke (april's fool), and I do find that very original! Yes, as an educated man, I find it very unlikely (tempted to say impossible, but do not want to alienate those without a physics background) that we'll ever see perpetual motion, but I won't stop in any one's way trying to prove me wrong. This thread is NOT about what I think, this is about having fun with Lego

And, getting back to our fun topic, here is something I found. It is not about perpetual motion, but something a bit closer to that. It's a camera that is self-powered. In one cycle CMOS works as energy harvesting (solar cell), and in another cycle, the CMOS takes the picture. If you take the camera by itself, it appears to be a perpetual machine ... unless you try to take pictures at night where there is no light in sight. Incidentally, this point was already brought up by a prior post i.e., make sure to account for the boundary conditions (power supply) correctly.

http://www.techbrief...news/news/21957

Edited April 21, 2015 by DrJB

[Boxerlego]

I dont know.. could be another hoax, but i reckon you are smart enough do some looking into it yourself ;)

Thanks for linking to that article about that perpetual motion machine Sylvian. I find the article interesting but it has to be a hoax. The way the article reads in my opinion kinda is telling me this is hoax. Right here something wrong with this sentence in the quote from the article. This Infusion of power what exactly is that. Why not the term charge is used to describe this process what is the advantage of Infusion of power over power charge.

The generator requires an initial infusion of power through a battery or AC supply

[__________________________]

The breakthrough for Tewari, a former director of the Kaiga Atomic Power Station, came last year when his machine achieved an efficiency of 238%, which means it produced 2.38 times the electrical power provided to it initially, making it the first to achieve this. This essentially defies the Law of Conservation of Energy - and in the case of electrical generators, Lenz's Law, which forms the basis of mechanics and thermodynamics laws that suggests machines cannot attain over a 100% efficiency. KPCL has deputed a team of engineers to evaluate the machine. "We have reviewed the product. The evaluations and analysis have been submitted to the managing director for the final approval (to use in the Kappatagudda windmill project)," one of the KPCL engineers said, requesting anonymity. The generator requires an initial infusion of power through a battery or AC supply, following which it produces power sustaining itself on electrons in a vacuum, without requiring external supply. "Space is the only reality, and has the potential to produce massive amounts of power if put through right technology," said Tewari, who has applied for an international patent for his device in the US.

I need to tell my physics teacher about that...

[alltypesofbricks]

Isn't this supposed to be a Lego discussion

[Boxerlego]

Isn't this supposed to be a Lego discussion

Yes this is supposed to be a LEGO discussion and sort of an April first joke as well, However I really am building what is in the picture despite the title I given it. What its really going to be is an electric motor of sorts. But right now I am finishing up another motor project that I been in the progress of building and I hope some of it will lend itself to this large LEGO motor that you see here. I still have the magnet rotor I need to make. I'm not quite sure on exactly how I should proceed with building it I got a couple of ideas floating around at the moment each with there own little problems.

[bonox]

, following which it produces power sustaining itself on electrons in a vacuum, without requiring external supply.

I came across this little gem and immediately thought of this thread

[Phoxtane]

There's a relevant XKCD comic for everything (remember this and use it well).

[Boxerlego]

Update: 8/16/2015. Over the past couple of days I have been making huge HUGE HUGE progress on the Magnet rotor. I finally constructed a prototype that is very close to true center.

[JM1971]

People think perpetual motion is not possible but what is a hydro electic damn?

Rain keeps falling, rivers keep running and the earth keeps turning all on its own.

[bonox]

what is a hydro electic damn?

Some edumacation courtesy of MC Hawking (for the upcoming hurt souls )

Creationists always try to use the second law,

to disprove evolution, but their theory has a flaw.

The second law is quite precise about where it applies,

only in a closed system must the entropy count rise.

The earth's not a closed system' it's powered by the sun,

so megabluck the damn creationists, Doomsday get my gun!

That, in a nutshell, is what entropy's about,

you're now down with a discount.

Edited August 18, 2015 by bonox

[Rockbrick]

People think perpetual motion is not possible but what is a hydro electic damn?

Rain keeps falling, rivers keep running and the earth keeps turning all on its own.

...and lets not get started with the energy needed to manufacture the parts, greases, oils etc... that keep the friction down - totally inefficient if you ask me having to wait for all those prehistoric forests to decompose into oil

Edited August 17, 2015 by Rockbrick

[JJ2]

OUCH! that kind of hurt!

Edited September 27, 2015 by JJ2