Walter Kovacs

Unrest in the Forest - Conclusion: Hatchet, Axe and Saw

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Finally you guys can see that I was indeed an Oak. Remember how I was talking all sorts of crazy and having the final laugh before I got lynched? Yeah... I did get that final laugh. Too bad I wasn't a Jester. I hope now you guys get a feel for how I play now but I can't say for sure that I'll play another game. This gets too intense, even for me. :sceptic:

Nah, you're the reverse-conclusion-miller–clearly Scum.

:tongue:

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I think lynching one of us and NK'ing the other would've been the logical way to win solo, and it clearly didn't matter who you lynched in that case. I don't think there was any argument that either Foog or I could've made to logically get you lynched. I will probably think of this as a solo SK win, even though we technically are now winners, too.

I think we'll be talking about this game for some time.

Scuba... how did you enjoy being a stump?

Edited by fhomess

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Aw, thanks. :blush:

And to be fair to Goliath, I almost quit as well. :blush: I felt like saying "Lynch me, I'm the Serial Killer" at one point because I was concentrating too much on the game and got a little behind in my homework. :blush: But I figured that would be unfair to the host to not fully play the role I had been given and the position the mechanics had put me in.

Tammo almost killed fhomess Night Six. Changed his mind, stayed home, got killed. Freed me up to kill Scuba. :laugh:

What the hell was jluck thinking with the neutral bomb? A huge ping of fhomess for me was postulating that jluck had been given the list of dead and then switched to thinking only Oaks were stumped. When I pointed this out to him in private he said "I'm looking forward to many answers when this game is over and one of them is jluck's behavior that night." I thought it was clear jluck had made a bad gambit to not be killed and only a Scum would really want to know what had been going on. Made it sound like fhomess was annoyed with a rogue Scum. But then I figured fhomess might believe jluck was the Serial Killer and didn't think of it again until later.

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Walter you did great. Such a big amount of playeplayers in your first game is quite difficult. There were moments where I quesquestioned the balance in this game but in the end I'd have to say it was quite even! And ofcourse thankssnks for having me.

Hinck I loved you in this game. I was afraid to pm you because I was scum. After some time I came to the conclusion that not pming you would be metagame suicide since we always keep contact during these games.

I also would like to thank my fellow Maples for the collaboration! Whoot team maple!

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Also, I wouldn't have killed Foog unless I thought I was getting the solo win. :sceptic:

Now, I feel dirty.

Just to cover all bases, how would I have won alone then? It doesn't actually seem like that was possible. Just clarifying, of course. It was a fun game regardless.

I'm really sorry, Town. Stupid Scum... :hmpf_bad:

:tongue:

You would have won alone if you had killed fhomess and fhomess had killed Fugazi. Killing Fugazi made you win with scum. Had you killed fhomess and fhomess killed you, you would have won with town.

Also, Congratulations to the Scum. You did play a really fantastic game. My thought that I would let the Town win if I knew I couldn't win alone has more to do with the fact that I talked with them throughout the whole game. I probably would've felt guilty realizing how great a game you played...and how Scummy and flaily-weird the Town acted the whole time. :wacko: Awesome teamwork, Scum. :thumbup:

Yeah, nice one, Maples.

Finally you guys can see that I was indeed an Oak. Remember how I was talking all sorts of crazy and having the final laugh before I got lynched? Yeah... I did get that final laugh. Too bad I wasn't a Jester. I hope now you guys get a feel for how I play now but I can't say for sure that I'll play another game. This gets too intense, even for me. :sceptic:

No, you shouldn't give up. But please don't PM your role PM to stumps again.

What the hell was jluck thinking with the neutral bomb? A huge ping of fhomess for me was postulating that jluck had been given the list of dead and then switched to thinking only Oaks were stumped. When I pointed this out to him in private he said "I'm looking forward to many answers when this game is over and one of them is jluck's behavior that night." I thought it was clear jluck had made a bad gambit to not be killed and only a Scum would really want to know what had been going on. Made it sound like fhomess was annoyed with a rogue Scum. But then I figured fhomess might believe jluck was the Serial Killer and didn't think of it again until later.

jluck explained it in the scumboard. He said that he was trying to stop the vig from killing him by claiming bomb, and that he was trying to implicate William and I as scum when he cam up janitored.

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Oh, and can we just start referencing this game in all future mafia intros as rule #1: "DO NOT CONFIDE IN HINCKLEY ON DAY 1. OR EVER."?

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Aw, thanks. :blush:

And to be fair to Goliath, I almost quit as well. :blush: I felt like saying "Lynch me, I'm the Serial Killer" at one point because I was concentrating too much on the game and got a little behind in my homework. :blush: But I figured that would be unfair to the host to not fully play the role I had been given and the position the mechanics had put me in.

Tammo almost killed fhomess Night Six. Changed his mind, stayed home, got killed. Freed me up to kill Scuba. :laugh:

What the hell was jluck thinking with the neutral bomb? A huge ping of fhomess for me was postulating that jluck had been given the list of dead and then switched to thinking only Oaks were stumped. When I pointed this out to him in private he said "I'm looking forward to many answers when this game is over and one of them is jluck's behavior that night." I thought it was clear jluck had made a bad gambit to not be killed and only a Scum would really want to know what had been going on. Made it sound like fhomess was annoyed with a rogue Scum. But then I figured fhomess might believe jluck was the Serial Killer and didn't think of it again until later.

I explained in back on page 1. Basically, the host PMed me saying I was currently slated to die but that could change so I went into "spread confusion" mode. I tried to prevent the kill by claiming the bomb part (it worked on the vig) and wanted to implicate oak that were in contact with me. It worked somewhat, dragonfire was killed soon after (sorry dragonfire). Basically, I knew I was about to die, knew I'd be janitored, and figured I should spread some confusion.

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You would have won alone if you had killed fhomess and fhomess had killed Fugazi. Killing Fugazi made you win with scum. Had you killed fhomess and fhomess killed you, you would have won with town.

No. That is not what I was told.

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Thanks Walter for a great game, you did a great job for your first game. And even more thumbs up, when you took on a game with this much players and strange and complex roles, I was confused many times :sweet: .

Too bad I die soon early, thanks for that Def... oh I mean Hinckley :wink:

Thanks to everyone for making an enjoyable reading time, lots and lots of comments. Good playing mapleteam, you had us confused in the stumpboard for a while.

And then the biggest thanks for a great game goes to Hinckley, great job as the serial killer and for keeping up the facade until the end and not giving up.

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Oh, and can we just start referencing this game in all future mafia intros as rule #1: "DO NOT CONFIDE IN HINCKLEY ON DAY 1. OR EVER."?

Unless you have reason to because you're a naive investigator :cry_sad:

No. That is not what I was told.

Walter seems to have told you what the case is with lynches, but from what I can see, Dragonfire is right.

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I felt bad janitoring you (you'd even said in game that you'd be ticked off if you got lynched and then janitored that night!) but we had to. It kept everyone wondering, set up the next day's lynch, and kept people thinking there WASN'T a janitor :)

Don't be! Let me think of it as you letting me get revenge on the town, in the sense that I stirred up a lot of confusion. :wink:

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Don't be! Let me think of it as you letting me get revenge on the town, in the sense that I stirred up a lot of confusion. :wink:

Except that you shouldn't WANT revenge on the town. As an oak, you win or lose based on whether the TOWN wins or loses. Even if the other townies tick you off and lynch you, you should still want them to win so that you get the win too. Mafia is a team game, not individual.

For example - fhomes and bob lynching me, even though we were scum together. It gave them a lot of town cred the next day since people wouldn't assume the scum would bus someone so late in the game, or place the first vote on a fellow scum.

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Except that you shouldn't WANT revenge on the town. As an oak, you win or lose based on whether the TOWN wins or loses. Even if the other townies tick you off and lynch you, you should still want them to win so that you get the win too. Mafia is a team game, not individual.

For example - fhomes and bob lynching me, even though we were scum together. It gave them a lot of town cred the next day since people wouldn't assume the scum would bus someone so late in the game, or place the first vote on a fellow scum.

This is very true, it is important to always play as a team player. And there was stump discussion about why Bob would seal the lynch on you if he were scum. I think that was part of what lead to the belief he was the SK.

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Nah, you're the reverse-conclusion-miller–clearly Scum.

:tongue:

My brain hurts now. :grin:

I also noticed I have a new title, did you give this to moi? I love it! :wub:

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Oh, and can we just start referencing this game in all future mafia intros as rule #1: "DO NOT CONFIDE IN HINCKLEY ON DAY 1. OR EVER."?

:laugh:

I explained in back on page 1. Basically, the host PMed me saying I was currently slated to die but that could change so I went into "spreadarrow-10x10.png confusionarrow-10x10.png" mode. I tried to prevent the kill by claiming the bomb part (it worked on the vig) and wanted to implicate oak that were in contact with me. It worked somewhat, dragonfire was killed soon after (sorry dragonfire). Basically, I knew I was about to die, knew I'd be janitored, and figured I should spread some confusion.

Don't be sorry. You played really well, and you didn't actually get me lynched. mostlytechnic got me lynched by janitoring Goliath :wink:

No. That is not what I was told.

Maybe not, but it's correct. The Maples did win as well, after all.

Except that you shouldn't WANT revenge on the town. As an oak, you winarrow-10x10.png or lose based on whether the TOWN wins or loses. Even if the other townies tick you off and lynch you, you should still want them to winarrow-10x10.png so that you get the win too. Mafia is a team game, not individual.

This is a very important point. I've learned this from previous experience.

I also noticed I have a new title, did you give this to moi? I love it! :wub:

Jealous :tongue: I wish I had a title.

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Walter seems to have told you what the case is with lynches, but from what I can see, Dragonfire is right.

That's the point. We seem to have been given conflicting win conditions. At least explicitly a solo win. And it would've been a different outcome. I'm not upset, I swear. :blush: I understand that adding to the winning team is better than keeping it from five people who deserve it. My ego may heal some day. :laugh: But I would've made different decisions and I feel bad for killing the Town when I was working with them the whole time. For example, I know how much you and Tammo put into Scum-hunting and I had the chance to let that pay off for you and I didn't because I wanted the solo win. This probably worked out for the best because the Scum did deserve the win...but it was supposed to have been in my hands to decide that. :devil:

Anyway, I have lots of things to say constructively, but my main criticism for Walter is that you should have clear win conditions that don't conflict. :grin: We all learn. I don't think this detracts from the enjoyment and quality of the game. I've certainly never been in a three-way stand-off at the end of a game as player or host. That was exciting and I can understand how it's hard to keep everything straight, especially when you're not feeling well.

To conclude, I'm disappointed I didn't win solo. But I still had a great time and winning as the Serial Killer along with an excellent Scum team feels good. Great game for many reasons.

I also noticed I have a new title, did you give this to moi? I love it! :wub:

I'm pretty sure it was me. :blush:

Maybe not, but it's correct. The Maples did win as well, after all.

:wall: See what I said above. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying I was told different information and that's what informed my actions. Had I been given the correct information, I would've made different decisions.

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:wall: See what I said above. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying I was told different information and that's what informed my actions. Had I been given the correct information, I would've made different decisions.

Would you have killed fhomess had you been given the information I put forward?

Oh, and thanks for granting my wish :classic: I feel special :blush:

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And explicitly, the Maples probably wouldn't have won had I been told they would win if I killed Foog. Who knows, but in my "confession" I clearly take it as a slight to the Town, meaning I was considering letting them win with me or taking it for myself. Understand my frustration in that case?

Would you have killed fhomess had you been given the information I put forward?

Oh, and thanks for granting my wish :classic: I feel special :blush:

Do I have to beat you over the head with it??? Yes, for God's sake. All I've said is I would've made a different choice. What other choice was there? I would've killed fhomess. Jesus... :hmpf:

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And explicitly, the Maples probably wouldn't have won had I been told they would winarrow-10x10.png if I killed Foog. Who knows, but in my "confession" I clearly take it as a slight to the Town, meaning I was considering letting them winarrow-10x10.png with me or taking it for myself. Understand my frustration in that case?

Do I have to beat you over the head with it??? Yes, for God's sake. All I've said is I would've made a different choice. What other choice was there? I would've killed fhomess. Jesus... :hmpf:

OK, OK, I misread it....Guess I deserve my new title :blush:

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Good game all! There was a lot more moving parts than I'm used to, but it ended up totally balanced - don't know if that was luck, skill, or some combination of both but it made for an incredibly interesting and fun game. :thumbup:

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Oh, and can we just start referencing this game in all future mafia intros as rule #1: "DO NOT CONFIDE IN HINCKLEY ON DAY 1. OR EVER."?

:laugh:

Hinckley.

It may be a while. I'm trying to finish up a second degree and then find a job.

Oh ok, well I'm looking forward to it, Hinckley! :classic:

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Here are some notes I took (in my role PM, so Walter knew my internal thought process). You can follow, thought by thought, my reaction to being investigated by jamesn...and how I just knew TPRU and Foog were Scum. :blush:

More notes:

What a lucky break for me. The Scum have sent someone to pretend to be the investigator. They got the reading "Oak" on me. megablocking liar. And Tammo just told me that the real investigator just investigated him. :laugh: Unfortunately the results come in as "Oak".

If I'm patient, this can totally work to my advantage. If we tell the real investigator the Scum contacted me, then they'll "know" I'm Town and not have to investigate me. Can I be patient? I know that jamesn is Scum and I can't do shit about it until Tammo gets the real investigator to investigate him. I suppose I can tell Tammo I know which one is lying but that would give me away... Patience is so not my strong suit though. :laugh:

Further notes:

I believe I was role-copped by the Scum last night and they're not even being shy about it. Foog, TPRU, jamesn; all Scum, I think. I may need to confess to Tammo and say I'm the neutral survivor... It depends on how Jamesn answers my question about how the results come in.

Notes:

The Scum (TPRU, Foog, jamesn) clearly know I'm the SK, but they think I killed Dave. What do I do with all I know? I feel like being proactive and "coming out" to Tammo". That sounds like the safest course of action, but it also leads me to losing. I wonder if jamesn is trying to get me to target him. Maybe they have a redirector and want to use my kill and redirect it from Jamesn to Tammo... Or something like that. I do believe I won't be killing until I know what Actions we have and which ones I can control if we can continue with a Town block. I might be able to move forward with only the Scum knowing there is a serial killer. Maybe I'll stop killing until I know who everyone is. :sweet: That sounds like a great idea. Maybe this mess with Scaevola will free me from needing an investigation. My plan with Tammo won't work because we'd be revealing the real investigator to jamesn. Then Scaevola might really investigate me next though. Perhaps I should let the two investigate each other and be rid of the role cop and the investigator. Jamesn is likely to be a rolecop and when he targets Scaevola... OK. This is severely hurting my brain.

Neutral is the most interesting way to play. :grin:

I'll see if there's anything else interesting.

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Thanks for the brain dump Hinck. Always interesting (to me at least) to see how other people are interpreting what's going on.

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I'll see if there's anything else interesting.

I'm still kind of proud that we figured out there were two investigators and didn't lose our minds over it.

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