Castle Eras and Factions

[x105Black]

Ok, but this is nothing but your opinion. Is there any official document from Lego (I mean catalogs, boxes, etc.) speaking about such civil war? No, so please don't mix your opinions with the FACTS.

This theory seems even absurder when you realize that DG and BK have diffent commanders (Majisto and that "Black Monarch"), and absolutely different lookings, structures, etc. They have nothing to do one with the other.

I actually stated that this is what "I think." Wasn't trying to confuse any opinion with fact. But it still makes sense to me. And of course they would have different commanders. Did the North and South have the same commanders in the American Civil War?

They have almost identical heraldry. Only the color is different. I'd say that this means they have a lot in common.

But I don't know if there is any official word on this. It would be nice to have a book to resolve these issues and give more flavor to those interested in keeping factual consistency.

[dgherko]

The black knights pre-date dragon masters and had much better castle designs 8085 and 8086 are still among the best castles ever. Although they had a dragon on their shield, the black knights had no dragons the only animals were birds, horses and monkeys - from the pirate themes.

The dragons, first the green with red wings then other variants were brought in with the dragon masters led by Majisto then with the fright knights led by the evil Bat Lord and the witch Willa. The fright knights seemed to be the first "bad guy" faction.

None of the first factions were considered evil - they all had the smiley faced heads.

[Mr. Cube]

Well, even the first pirates had smiley faced heads (with some additional prints - beard, moustache...) and I think that everybody will agree that they were "bad guys". For me, the Dragon Masters are separated "rebel" sub-faction of Black Knights.

[Artanis I]

Robbers, bandits and the bad space-guys all had smiles up until mid 90s or so, and there were some very happy looking prisoners...

[x105Black]

Well, even the first pirates had smiley faced heads (with some additional prints - beard, moustache...) and I think that everybody will agree that they were "bad guys".

The Pirates were the good guys, it was the Imperials who were the bad guys!

At least, that's how I always felt.

[InvincibleEagle]

I remember when minifigs started having facial expressions besides smiles; it was almost a big deal when I was a kid.

"The Lego good guys are stupid!" my brother said to me. "They're always smiling!"

"Not the ninja good guys!" I'd retort back. (Those were the grey ninjas, right?) "They never smile!"

"Yeah, that's because they all have daggers shoved up their butts!"

I then changed my argument by pointing out the Aquashark with the John Conner hair. "Look at him! He's a bad guy, and he's smiling!"

***

Castle (LotR included) is my favorite theme; it's what keeps me into Lego to this day. So, I'd like to read a book all about the history and dynamics of the theme over the years

[Ardelon]

I also looked at the Dragon Masters as a splinter group off the Black Knights, lured away from the main faction by Majisto. But I still think the two are separate factions and shouldnt be grouped toghether. Take away the shields, and you wouldnt really recognize them as being similar.

[Sigolf Brimabane]

I think the poll was really hard to understand. I would have liked to see Royal Knights, Black Knights etc. Instead of the way it is done now.

Anyways, I actually always liked the Royal Knights because of nostalgia. My brother and I called the king Arthur, the red knight Richard the Lionheart and the other unique knight Prince Valiant. We also had a second king who was Prince John. Good times.

I have just ordered pieces for the Dungeon Master's/Black Knight's Castle. And in hindsight I must say that the Black Knights and Black Falcons are the best ones. Although I liked the Fright Knights when I was a kid.

[VintageLegoEra]

I think the poll was really hard to understand. I would have liked to see Royal Knights, Black Knights etc. Instead of the way it is done now.

Anyways, I actually always liked the Royal Knights because of nostalgia. My brother and I called the king Arthur, the red knight Richard the Lionheart and the other unique knight Prince Valiant. We also had a second king who was Prince John. Good times.

I have just ordered pieces for the Dungeon Master's/Black Knight's Castle. And in hindsight I must say that the Black Knights and Black Falcons are the best ones. Although I liked the Fright Knights when I was a kid.

I Totally Agree with you as i am feeling the same Feeling toward these old Nostalgia Sets

[Ardelon]

I actually have a hard time seeing the original Black Knights and the „Dungeon Masters“ (the Black Knights centered around the 6086 Black Knights Castle of 1992) as the same faction. The seconds ones used the kite shield alongside the classic shield, had dragon-styled plumes, the big flag, and apparently, much more lax regulations on facial hair – not to mention the alternate name of Dungeon Masters in some parts of the world. I kind of wondered (and still do) whether I should see them as another splinter group, or a special force within the Black Knights, or what.

Come to think of it, I had (well, still have) the same conundrum with the „blue lion on yellow“ vs „yellow lion on blue“ Crusaders. And whats with Dark Forest using the same crest as the Forestmen? And Leos knights of 2000 having the same lion charge as the Royal Knights? And why would the Dwarves have the same crest colors and similar heraldry to the Crownies - was there a common ancestor to the Human and Dwarf royal families? (the Trolls I could understand, since they are just showing allegiance to the wizard) Boy, I am overthinking this way too much.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Ardelon

[BrickJagger]

Should we update this poll to include Nexo Knights?

[Ardelon]

Gosh, I hope not!

[BrickJagger]

Gosh, I hope not!

I mean, it's not by much, but the community has spoken, no?

[thetang22]

I mean, it's not by much, but the community has spoken, no?

Location, location, location. It's easy to get the answer you intend if you rig the poll. Place the poll in the Castle forum, and you'll likely get a different answer.

[Captain Dee]

If NK gets added to the poll I might have to change my answer to the third question...

On a more serious note, I voted in favor of the Dragon Knights only because the Black Knights are grouped with them, which seems downright silly to me. The Black Knights were easily my favorite as a child, and the Dragon Masters were easily my least favorite when they came out. But a few more offerings bumped the DM up from the bottom, even though I still dislike them.

[x105Black]

Gosh, I hope not!

I agree.

That poll may be in favor of Nexo Knights being a Castle theme, but there have been 170 votes, and only 8 separate the Yes from the No (at this point). That's only a 4.7% difference, hardly enough to be definitive. I'd say both sides of the community have spoken.

[BrickJagger]

Location, location, location. It's easy to get the answer you intend if you rig the poll. Place the poll in the Castle forum, and you'll likely get a different answer.

And? There is no neutral site for the poll. The poll could have gone in Castle or Action, and it's in Action because that's where the NK thread is.

Also, there are far more users in Action who care about the sets themselves, as Historic is mainly MOCers, hence GOH having a sub-forum.

I agree.

That poll may be in favor of Nexo Knights being a Castle theme, but there have been 170 votes, and only 8 separate the Yes from the No (at this point). That's only a 4.7% difference, hardly enough to be definitive. I'd say both sides of the community have spoken.

And one of the "Yes" votes comes from the principal designer of the theme itself.

[thetang22]

And?

And......context is EVERYTHING.

And one of the "Yes" votes comes from the principal designer of the theme itself.

Seeing as how far from the "Castle" mold the Nexo Knights sets are, I'm not sure I'd put a whole lot of stock in the designer's opinion on the matter. That isn't an insult. The sets are designed well enough for their intended audience...but the intended audience isn't fans of traditional Castle.

[BrickJagger]

And......context is EVERYTHING.

I think you just missed the point.

Seeing as how far from the "Castle" mold the Nexo Knights sets are, I'm not sure I'd put a whole lot of stock in the designer's opinion on the matter. That isn't an insult. The sets are designed well enough for their intended audience...but the intended audience isn't fans of traditional Castle.

Of course it's not for traditional Castle fans. Neither was KK2. However, just like Castle 2013, had there been a "Real" Castle theme coming out next year there would have been endless complaining and disappointment. Literally nothing can totally please a large body of people, and Lego understands that.

They are now in a cycle of Fantasy Castle---> Regular Castle--->Big Bang Castle and it's quite effective.

After it ends, NK will be considered almost totally by this board to be a Castle theme. Take a look at this poll.

A sizable majority voted that KK2 is not a Castle theme and should be treated differently, simply because the poll was made during the theme's run and people then were upset that an "Awful" sub theme could ruin their perfect "Castle" line.

Yet here's KK2, in this poll about Castle themes.

Funny, isn't it?

Edited December 1, 2015 by BrickJagger

[Rogue Angel]

KK2 was entirely castle with no futuristic elements. It was garish with some stupid design choices (wheeled horses), but it was similar to a <insert that tiresome argument> castle theme. I will never consider NK a castle theme.

BUT, I didn't create this topic to be a NK discussion.

I had always considered the Dragon Masters to be an odd spin off of the Black Knights. Likely a splinter faction that rebelled. The problem was that I saw no use in having a separate Dragon faction that had the same emblem, but in Green Red and Yellow instead of Blue, red and yellow. Combine this with the facts that this green shield variant only ever appeared in oval form (not triangular), the Black Knights had no emblemed torsos of their own (only plate and scale/chain) torsos), and the Dragon Master soldiers were red black and blue, I was led to make one overarcing Dragon faction using the blue, red and yellow shields, the dragon master torsos/shields/plumes). I ditched the multicolored legs, and reasoned the green,red and yellow shields could be used for a separate calvary force. I used Majisto instead as a wandering Mage,severing his ties with the Dragon army. This gave me one cohesive force to use, and this is why I consider them one faction, even though they were separate in Lego lore.

I treat the lions/leo's/Crownies in the same way. I can only justify two different Lion factions in my world, so I toss out Leo, and I consider the Crown/Lion amalgam to be Crownies only. I consider the newest lions (red/gray) to be a separate faction.

In my world, there would be multiple dragon species, so I can accept multiple Dragon forces (BK, KK2, Fant, 2013).

[thetang22]

I think you just missed the point.

If your point has to do with the part about how there is no neutral place to conduct a vote...I got it. I had a much bigger response that I cut back for one big reason: this topic really doesn't matter. It's not as though this particular thread is anything official...so you arguing to add Nexo or me arguing against it really is kind of a waste. Your viewpoint came from a poll from another forum sub-section....my viewpoint came from the case that Nexo (as far as this site is concerned) has been moved away from the Castle (history) section...so putting forth effort to include it back in topics related to the history section seems counter productive.

[x105Black]

However, just like Castle 2013, had there been a "Real" Castle theme coming out next year there would have been endless complaining and disappointment.

After it ends, NK will be considered almost totally by this board to be a Castle theme.

Now that's a lot of assumption.

Maybe there would have been complaints, but there are plenty of complaints about every theme, including Nexo Knights.

Maybe it will be considered a Castle theme, maybe it won't. I sure hope that it isn't. If it is, it would likely be a mostly superficial comparison.

A sizable majority voted that KK2 is not a Castle theme and should be treated differently, simply because the poll was made during the theme's run and people then were upset that an "Awful" sub theme could ruin their perfect "Castle" line.

Yet here's KK2, in this poll about Castle themes.

Funny, isn't it?

Not really. These are just a couple of polls about the subject. A majority of people did vote that KK2 wasn't a Castle theme. I'd say that this poll shows that those sentiments are still true today. I'd love to see where those few votes in support of KK2 would go if it weren't included here, but even more, I'd love to see where the overwhelming majority of votes against it would go. More votes against the Skeletons, Fright Knights, or Bulls, perhaps?

I don't think the topic of Nexo Knights being a Castle theme is really appropriate for this topic, personally, but I gave it more attention than it deserves.

I love the fact that the Forestmen have the most overall votes in support (at this point), and that Classic Castle has the majority of votes. It would seem to me that a future Castle wave could be successful with the following:

Forestmen Faction

Black Falcon Faction

Wolfpack Faction

Classic Castle Elements

Fantasy Elements

Dragons

And without the following:

Colorful Jellybeanish Knights

Skeletons

Fright Knights

Bull Knights

Trolls

I left Crusaders and Leo off of the lists because I feel the support for the former and opposition to the latter somewhat cancel each other out, seeing as they are fairly similar factions overall. Would most people here agree to the above concept?

Edited December 1, 2015 by x105Black

[VintageLegoEra]

I left Crusaders and Leo off of the lists because I feel the support for the former and opposition to the latter somewhat cancel each other out, seeing as they are fairly similar factions overall. Would most people here agree to the above concept?

I agree. I dont know how or who came out with 2 factions for the Crusaders?....The Crusaders are originally ones with Cross Symbol and the Lion theme is the one with Leo Symbol .

[thetang22]

I don't think it's far-fetched at all to understand why there is confusion between Lion/Crusader/Leo. Crusaders came first, and used a Lion symbol on their shields, and its just evolved since then. They've clearly all used VERY similar inspiration for the faction designs...so lots of people tend to lump them together (rightfully so).

[Rogue Angel]

We have had 5? 6? Lion shields so far, and the two full body emblems are similar in color and the 3 lion head emblems are similar in color, so I can't justify having more than 2 lion factions in my world. I don't use 3 of the lion shields at all, which is a waste.

I don't think you can leave crusaders out of the classic castle lineup because they were one of the two core factions initially (1980s on).

I personally think a rerelease if the classic theme would be a waste. I would expect them to tweak everything slightly (classic blue/yellow Black Falcon vs. Joust Silver Black Falcon) making the classic figs potentially obsolete, which would be of no use to me. If they kept everything the same, this would still be a ware because I already have all the classic figs I could want.

I realize that many people would disagree with me on this, but I would rather see new ideas over recycled concepts. I have no issue with an occasional release (Black Falcon's fortress a few years ago) but I don't need to see a revamp of the classic factions.