Mechs without knees

[Mandate]

I sincerely hope that I'm not the only one that feels this way, or that has noticed this. Over the past few years, there has been an abundant lack of LEGO non-licensed System (take your 2014 HF sets outside the thread, please) mechs that feature actual, working knees. Or to be more specific: three points of articulation per leg.

An exception to this rule is the Exo-Suit, but aside from that there have been nearly, if not zero, mechs with knees. One could bring up examples from NINJAGO, such as the Earth Mech, but an example such as that suffers from a lack of feet (or in other words, whether or not it can be described as having knees is debatable). A significant amount of posing is lost with this development, and it's inexcusable when it happens with virtually every mech they release now.

Does anyone know exactly why this is? It's not a cost problem, because EXO-FORCE defies all logic in that department. It's not a structural problem, because again, EXO-FORCE defies all logic in that department, and it's not an aesthetic reason either because some sets have still managed to make the legs look worse, and EXO-FORCE again has cases where looks were a non-issue because of parts usage.

Even if it was a cost problem, when you're releasing a set with two mechs later this year, one of which has four arms, is it really unreasonable to expect that there would be some decent poseability? That in itself is another problem, because far too often sets fail to feature the best possible combinations of the ball and socket hybrid pieces, a notable example being the set Jay's ElectroMech, which uses an inferior connection style to the most commonly used method of attaching feet to a Mech/robot/CCBS human which has had significant and dominant usage since 2001.

I apologize if this seems like an incoherent rant (it's 1:20 AM), but I'm really disappointed with the lack of three points of articulation on System Mechs despite its heavy usage in the past and sloppy set design. Am I being unreasonable in expecting more out of sets and designs, particularly when aside from Exo-Suit there hasn't been three points of articulation in years?

I'd also like to note that I'm speaking of non-licensed Mechs. Sorry Star Wars fans

[fred67]

I think it's less about pose-ability than play-ability. These are probably easier for kids to keep them standing.

[Mandate]

I think it's less about pose-ability than play-ability. These are probably easier for kids to keep them standing.

But why where they a staple of EXO-FORCE sets for two and a half years, if that was the case? Why do they still exist in Star Wars and action figures? Why is it that in non-licensed non-exclusive sets they never show up now?

[legoman19892]

Mechs Without Knees sounds like the name of an activist group.

[notaromantic]

Mechs Without Knees sounds like the name of an activist group.

... or a band, fusion - kind of a post-rock, experimental jazz, ambient hybrid. I'm calling it.

But I agree, although it's not my particular area of interest, that a mech without knees is quite a pitiful. To be a mech without knees would be just awful.

Are there even any action figures still made without leg articulation?

I remember, when I was kid, ordering one of those amazing sets of army men that were advertised in the back pages of the comic books - for like $1.00 or something. I sent off my money order, and then I waited - so long that I eventually forgot that I had ordered them. Some outrageous amount of time later, unexpectedly, this small package arrived for me, and lo and behold... It was my army men. Army men, and tanks, and planes, etc..., that, from the front or back, looked great, but from the side - they were completely flat. Molded flat. I was so disappointed.

So I don't buy the 'playability' argument ^. What kid wants a mech without knees, a misfit toy for sure? There's just no good excuse.

[Blondie-Wan]

Well, most LEGO people (minifigures) lack posable knees, and those are based on real-life beings that have them. If they don't have them, why should mechs, which generally aren't even based upon real-life knee-equipped objects? :p ;)

I imagine it actually is indeed a cost issue.

[notaromantic]

Well, most LEGO people (minifigures) lack posable knees, and those are based on real-life beings that have them. If they don't have them, why should mechs, which generally aren't even based upon real-life knee-equipped objects? :p ;)

That's a very good argument.

However, now that I think of it, it's all the more reason to have knees on your mechs - because you don't have them yourself. If the mech represents the ideal of our physical form, our body wish-list realized with technology if you will, then it really is all the more reason to give them knees. If I was a Lego-person, and was constantly annoyed at my own lack of knees, my mech is surely going to have knees! What, knee upgrade will cost me how much!?... Sorry honey, we were unable to afford the air-conditioning this time around. Maybe next mech. I'd be out in the garage, polishing the knees again.

Take care of your knees, people.

[alanyuppie]

Well, most LEGO people (minifigures) lack posable knees, and those are based on real-life beings that have them. If they don't have them, why should mechs, which generally aren't even based upon real-life knee-equipped objects? :p ;)

I imagine it actually is indeed a cost issue.

If its cost issue, then the mechs would've lacked ELABORATE upper body designs and backpacks.

[Gnac]

Fewer things to explode.

[dr_spock]

I think having knees would make them taller. Maybe there is some corporate design height limit.

Not a mech but a knight with knees. Took a bit longer to straighten the legs with an extra joint to adjust from sitting position.

[Artanis I]

(Saying "mechs shouldn't have knees since minifigs don't" doesn't really work, since minifigs don't have fingers but many mechs do. They also have elbow & wrist joints, and most of the time, better articulation in every joint.)

I think having knees would make them taller.

I think it may well be due to that. Having solid upper & lower legs adds greatly to the height.

I also found the exo-suit to be more difficult to pose than system sets without it getting all crooked, trying to get one leg to work with the other, what with all of the joints.

But I imagine it's primarily the increased cost & increased height.

[Master_Data]

I think having knees would make them taller. Maybe there is some corporate design height limit.

The new Mixel joints solve that (Groot was probably a bad example because he was massive to begin with, but the Mixel joints barely add to the height at all).

[Blondie-Wan]

(Saying "mechs shouldn't have knees since minifigs don't" doesn't really work, since minifigs don't have fingers but many mechs do. They also have elbow & wrist joints, and most of the time, better articulation in every joint.)

It was more a joke than a serious comment (hence the ":p" and ";)" appended to it).

[rodiziorobs]

The new Mixel joints solve that (Groot was probably a bad example because he was massive to begin with, but the Mixel joints barely add to the height at all).

The mixel joints, however, aren't able to hold up much weight. They enable knees without much height increase, but you couldn't support a fully-armored mech with them. Heck, you probably couldn't support even a barely-armored mech.

[Saberwing40k]

I think the fact that many mechs lack knees is a bit ridiculous. If it's a poseability issue, then why do we have Bionicle figures with knees? I think the lack of knees is a combo of cost cutting, and "They're kids, they're not going to care anyway."

I mean, for a kid, they'd most likely prefer a mech that has four arms over one with knees. I'm the opposite way, however, which is why I prefer building my own mechs, key exception being the Exo-Suit, which is one of my favorites.

And I never had problems posing any mech with knees.

[Mandate]

Well, most LEGO people (minifigures) lack posable knees, and those are based on real-life beings that have them. If they don't have them, why should mechs, which generally aren't even based upon real-life knee-equipped objects? :p ;)

I imagine it actually is indeed a cost issue.

I understand you were joking, but even HF got Mechs that featured knees, despite the "Herofigures" lacking them. If it were a cost issue, we would have never seen EXO-FORCE release every notable Mech with knees. Granted, some were missing elbows (or entire limbs, *cough*GoldenGuardianbutitwassoawesomenooneshouldcare*cough*) but for the most part they all featured it. I think you have to agree with me though, when I mentioned that there has been no non-licensed System-specific Mech that has featured knees in the past few years. Exo-Suit was based more around Technic than anything else, so it can also be considered and exception to the rule. Some sets certainly have to deal with pricing issues, but to have seen none in recent time is nothing short of ridiculous.

[Blondie-Wan]

Speaking of lacking knees...

[Im a brickmaster.]

If it bothers you that much just scrap the mech or redesign it so it has knees! And yes I totally get the frustration of poorly articulated things, like most action figures now days! Heck, when I was a kid (granted I'm not that old) you could buy an insanely detailed and articulated action figure anywhere! Now you have to hunt stuff like that down. And I agree, Exo force as I great example of cool mechs with fairly low parts/ enexpensive prices.

[M'Kyuun]

Playing devil's advocate, my guess is that it's for both simplicity and stability, as the sets are generally aimed at 7-12 year olds, and for whatever reason, the semblance of a perma-bent knee has become the design standard. I'm thinking of the Hulkbuster sets, as well as any number of Ninjago mechs. Maybe they don't think younglings can handle that magnitude of poseability. 

It's not an argument I buy, however, as even in the 80's, I always wanted more articulation in toys. G.I. Joe, and later Micronauts, set a good standard, IMHO. Star Wars figures were poor, offering only 4-5 points of articulation. Anyway, Exo-Force was indeed revolutionary when it came out, as it was the first mech-centric theme, homaged the anime influence really well, and gave us some really poseable, albeit rather anemic, mecha. It was ahead of its time, somewhat short-lived, but it planted the seeds, and provided some nice ratcheting joints, for future mecha sets. Alas, as time has marched on and mecha , both MOC and official, have become more complex, LEGO hasn't really kept up with the trend. Voltron was my personal hope for some new stronger ratcheting joints, especially for hips, and they let the opportunity slip away, and what we got was a pretty statue of Voltron rather than a nice articulated action figure. 

The minifig, objectively, has not aged well, either, by contemporary standards. It's iconic, but it's poseability is very limited. While my preference is and always shall be for LEGO as my favored building medium, I was intrigued enough by MegaBloks' Collector Construction sets, namely their Harrier jump jet and their AH-64 Apache. The figures they created for these sets are wonderful, in terms of poseability in a very small figure, and I find myself wishing that LEGO would make some sort of equivalent, a midi-figure, if you will, with greatly improved articulation, perhaps for sets aimed at the teen and above demographic. I doubt it'll ever come to pass, as LEGO continues to cling to the minifig. Don't get me wrong, I love the minifig, but as sets continue to advance, I wish there was an official figure that matched that advancement for a greater range of playability.

[Peppermint_M]

Minifigs are always the absolute best and as "nice" as the Construx action-ish figures are, those things fall apart terribly. I had bought some to look at when they were reduced and those I kept (I gave away a lot of the Halo ones) are now crumbling to pieces or missing limbs due to design flaws that mean the joints fall apart from even minimal posing. Year on year I am throwing out more and more of the broken figures while my inherited 70's minifigures are going strong.

As for mechs? If you want something nice and bulked up but stable, knees are terrible.

Creating a bendable/poseable knee joint really pares down the "bulk" you can give the joint. So, if you have a goodly sized mech, the knees will not support it unless they are solid. As I type, my Fire Mech is on the shelf and yes, the knees are hinted at, but they could not exist if I wanted it to stand on my shelf for any length of time.  Sadly, the limitations of the medium (ie LEGO) means we can have skinny mecha with full posabilit, or sturdy titans that have static knees.

Not that I haven't tried to create mecha with the full range of movement. (it mainly ends in the clatter of plastic and swearing on my part...)

[anothergol]

On 2/28/2015 at 4:23 PM, Mandate said:

It's not a structural problem, because again, EXO-FORCE defies all logic in that department

It certainly is, it's just that Lego's standards as for sturdiness have changed.

While sets of my childhood were bottom-up, very fragile builds, today's sets focus too much on sturdiness, to the point that it becomes boring to waste every first & second bag on structure alone. But hey, kids can then toss them around. And it's probably the father who builds it, seeing how Lego always puts minifigs in the first bags, so that the kid has something to play with while daddy is busy.
Keep in mind that Lego assumes the ball-joints will get loose, puts them in ovens, etc, & that's most likely why they only use them in light Constraction characters. Of course knees don't need ball-joints, but if you start bending knees, you then need ball-joints for the feet anyway, and you still end up with a stability problem. With new parts, IMHO 1 ball joint with friction extender would work for most of Lego's mechs, but again, only when they're new, and Lego takes into account that hinges get loose.

As for knees however, I find myself making more mechs without articulated knees. *However* IMHO the problem with, say the Hulkbuster or Ninjago mechs isn't so much that it has unarticulated knees, it's that they're in a boring, standing-up pause.
I have no problem with mecs without bendable knees when they're locked to the He-Man pause, which some Lego sets have.
This pause can mean "wrestling" as much as "standing up" IMHO, it's perfect. Perhaps not when placing them into vehicles but that's another story.

I've made this one with no bendable knees (well, perhaps no knees at all), but I have no problem with it because it's locked to the He-Man pause, which is what I've locked most of my other mechs to anyway (& being an adult, it's not like I was playing with them).

Edited October 28, 2018 by anothergol