Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[DraikNova]

It could also mean that the parent(s) build the protectors. It'd be a little less disturbing for a children's toy line than the alternative.

Edited February 6, 2015 by DraikNova

[Dorek]

It could also mean that the parent(s) build the protectors. It'd be a little less disturbing for a children's toy line than the alternative.

See, I think that's OVERthinking it. When you say "parent to child", that generally doesn't raise any red flags; kids understand that they have parents. I would think the idea of parents literally constructing their child is a lot more disturbing (emotionally, not physically; babies are gross) than just the very basic idea of generational reproduction.

[mysteriouspi]

Why is it suddenly so disturbing for normal reproduction (even for a biomechanical race) to be a possibility? Because that happens in nearly every story. Obviously TLG doesn't focus on it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Side note: what a strange conversation this is.

[VBBN]

The truth behind how the little protectors grow has been revealed

In regards to the earlier discussion about the Skull villains personalities, i wouldn't be too disappointed if these villains are kinda dry personality wise, as long as somewhere down the line we get Piraka-styled crazy awesome and dark personalities. It kinda raises the stakes when villains become more sentient. Assuming we stick with the Toa Nuva for three years, I'd want the villains to become more dangerous as the years go on.

I'd rather not start off with a really awesome set of villains, and then bounce back to some disappointing horde-style villains again next year.

[GK733]

If they would confirm the reproduction, that would certainly take a notice and appear as negative backlash. Simply hiding this process may just be for the good. Do you really explain to five year old kid how humans reproduce with genitals? No. Should you explain how bio-mechanic characters reproduce then? No. Remember that we are not the target audience, but a minority which they still care about. Greg only now just revealed how the matorans reproduce. This thing hasn't been touched even on NinjaGo or Chima. Why do you expect it happens in Bionicle?

Edited February 6, 2015 by GK733

[Still Raindrop]

I'm pretty sure that you don't have to focus on the mechanics of biological reproduction just because it exists. Plenty of characters in kids' stories have kids, with the implication being biological reproduction--but they don't focus on that (like Ninjago, for example). Saying "father to son" or "generations," in my mind, is a way of implying that these characters have kids without getting into all the details of bionic penises and such.

[Dorek]

If they would confirm the reproduction, that would certainly take a notice and appear as negative backlash. Simply hiding this process may just be for the good. Do you really explain to five year old kid how humans reproduce with genitals? No. Should you explain how bio-mechanic characters reproduce then? No. Remember that we are not the target audience, but a minority which they still care about. Greg only now just revealed how the matorans reproduce. This thing hasn't been touched even on NinjaGo or Chima. Why do you expect it happens in Bionicle?

They're not necessarily going to "confirm" it in the way we expect them to (although that's such a G1 way of thinking anyway), but the usage of "father and son", to me, is more confirmation than we'll ever need.

Just saying that there are such things as parents and offspring should not and, as far as I know, is not going to lead to too many awkward conversations. It was different for G1 because these sort of elements stuck out at the get-go; a large population of small beings can't be related to the incredibly small population of larger beings. If Hewkii/Macku hadn't been a thing in the MNOG, I doubt there ever would have been such a huge interest in the topic anyway.

But plenty of other lines deal with it just by presenting the incredibly simple idea of lineage. And I don't quite get the Ninjago/Chima examples; I don't pay attention to the lines, granted, but I know they both have father/son dynamics (and sibling dynamics), and it's not a confusing thing there. If you draw attention to it and present it in a way that is different from a child's point of view (like BIONICLE G1 did) then yes, that can be confusing, but the target audience won't completely stupefied by the idea of "mother, father, child".

[Still Raindrop]

Right--it's not about how it works, it's about establishing familial relationships.

[CabooseBM]

See, I think that's OVERthinking it. When you say "parent to child", that generally doesn't raise any red flags; kids understand that they have parents. I would think the idea of parents literally constructing their child is a lot more disturbing (emotionally, not physically; babies are gross) than just the very basic idea of generational reproduction.

How is it more disturbing? In any way? I'd imagine the absence of pregnancy makes it less disturbing on the outset*! And they're kinda constructing their child either way, if you think about it.

*(This is not a "pregnancy is ew" comment BTW. But an acknowledgement of the mental, physical, and emotional toll it takes on the parent carrying the child.)

[Dorek]

How is it more disturbing? In any way? I'd imagine the absence of pregnancy makes it less disturbing on the outset*! And they're kinda constructing their child either way, if you think about it.

*(This is not a "pregnancy is ew" comment BTW. But an acknowledgement of the mental, physical, and emotional toll it takes on the parent carrying the child.)

Hey, I fully acknowledge that childbirth, for all its emotional beauty, is one of the most physically disgusting things I can think of =P. My point being that I'm assuming these guys aren't full robots; it's sort of cyclical in that "it would be gross if they were robots so they can't be robots otherwise that would be gross", but we've been presented with the simple notion that there is at least a concept of "father to son". If we take that at face value (which I'm inclined to do, otherwise we're back at "omg the universes are connected!"), it means a very basic sense of reproduction, if not in so many words.

You could argue that "construction" would be its own form of lineage, but I feel like that's a very different theme than what they're going for; unlike G1, where they're all just AI anyway, you'd literally be making life from nothing. That sort of added complexity, which drove G1 fans nuts as it is, seems like something they'd want to avoid.

[Clone 01354 Productions]

Saying "father to son" or "generations," in my mind, is a way of implying that these characters have kids without getting into all the details of bionic penises and such.

This. (But thanks for that disturbing image....)

If they said "father to son", but then later said that "father" just meant "demented old guy that used machines to create artificial life", I think it gets weirder......At this point, we probably got as much confirmation as we'll ever get.

Also, just saw the new episode, and I really enjoyed it. But, I think the narrator just really, really likes to say "Master of Fiyaaaaa!!!" But at least he's mixing it up, and he threw in an extra roar at the end.

Edited February 7, 2015 by LN-01354

[CabooseBM]

Hey, I fully acknowledge that childbirth, for all its emotional beauty, is one of the most physically disgusting things I can think of =P. My point being that I'm assuming these guys aren't full robots; it's sort of cyclical in that "it would be gross if they were robots so they can't be robots otherwise that would be gross", but we've been presented with the simple notion that there is at least a concept of "father to son". If we take that at face value (which I'm inclined to do, otherwise we're back at "omg the universes are connected!"), it means a very basic sense of reproduction, if not in so many words.

You could argue that "construction" would be its own form of lineage, but I feel like that's a very different theme than what they're going for; unlike G1, where they're all just AI anyway, you'd literally be making life from nothing. That sort of added complexity, which drove G1 fans nuts as it is, seems like something they'd want to avoid.

I'm completely with you on the first paragraph except for the "robots are gross" thing, which I don't understand?

I get what you're saying in the second paragraph, it makes more sense to handwave it away in this universe and I'm hardly complaining about that. But honestly I really like the thematic link of "building" the inhabitants of a constraction toyline. And since I'm already willing to accept the handwave of organic reproduction in the first place, I am totally up for handwaving away the "life from nothing" complaint.

Edited February 6, 2015 by CabooseBM

[Dorek]

I meant that if they're robots, "building" each other (in a literal sense) is less weird, but if they aren't, it makes it very strange. Heck, Tahu putting himself together at the beginning of G1 is still a bizarre image.

(also, given the "confirmation", more or less, of a machine that builds Matoran... why has nobody made Hero Factory crossover jokes yet)

[Jetrax99]

(also, given the "confirmation", more or less, of a machine that builds Matoran... why has nobody made Hero Factory crossover jokes yet)

Actually, somebody did, just not here.

Gerth on TFW2005 made a crack at the whole factory aspect.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jetrax99

[Timeline15]

I meant that if they're robots, "building" each other (in a literal sense) is less weird, but if they aren't, it makes it very strange. Heck, Tahu putting himself together at the beginning of G1 is still a bizarre image.

I wasn't really around for the story in 2001, so I just assumed that add of the toa assembling themselves was non canon, and was very surprised to find it actually happened. I also wasn't aware that the Matoran upgrades of 03 were done using pieces of destroyed bohrok (which is kinda dark given what we now know about bohrok).

It's just a bit weird to me that they're actually able to come apart in universe. I always assumed the whole construction aspect was just for the toys. The idea that these people can dismantle themselves is very strange to me. How is it possible to even kill one? Could a Matoran just walk down the street, pass a severed head, and be like "hey Ohpu" and the head's just like "oh hey Teihri, 'sup dude?"

And if there was just a machine that made Matoran, how had the Turaga not figured out that they were inside a giant robot? "hey Turaga Vakama, where do the Matoran in that machine come from?" "DON'T QUESTION THE GREAT SPIRIT!!"

[CabooseBM]

I meant that if they're robots, "building" each other (in a literal sense) is less weird, but if they aren't, it makes it very strange. Heck, Tahu putting himself together at the beginning of G1 is still a bizarre image.

(also, given the "confirmation", more or less, of a machine that builds Matoran... why has nobody made Hero Factory crossover jokes yet)

Oh, okay, I see now. I don't agree in the case of MU inhabitants, but I see what you're saying.

[ZORK64]

Terms like "parents" and "children" don't necessarily mean that the folks in Bionicle reproduce through the magic of hanky-panky. Take a look at Transformers, for example. The concept of family (especially siblings) isn't unkown among the Cybertronians (though it is arguably sometimes somewhat loosely interpreted), despite not reproducing sexually. Of course, it gets weirder if we take into account that in some TF series, Cybertronians in romantic relationships can engage in some sort of... uh... intimate interaction, though it doesn't seem to serve the purpose of creating new life (there are also some series with the opposite approach, such as Animated).

More recent series, such as Transformers Prime, are also prone to potray the characters somewhat more organic. Energon, which is the main energy source of the Transformers since the early days of the franchise's fiction usually appears in the form of crystals or energy cubes, is also shown as a fluid the characters actually bleed if they get hurt. Transformers Prime also sheds some light on Cybertronian physiology, making it clear they are somewhat organic, despite being still completely more robot like compared to humans. But they still come into life by other means than humans do.

To be more on-topic, I bought Lewa today (yesterday?) and got the promo bag with him.

[MakutaOfWar]

Robots(cyborgs) "building" their "children" is less apealing to me because it implies that the characters are more machine and less sentient, meaning they don't have emotions, personality, etc.

And this "target audience", I don't care about the "target audience". I'm a gen 1 fan coming from a time when TLG actually gave a shit about the fans and not just making some toys. They're not just "some toys" to me. Everybody needs to stop being sales specialists or whatever on this forum.

And is it just me or did anyone else make Tanma and Gavla have a relationship? Just me? Oh...

[CabooseBM]

Robots(cyborgs) "building" their "children" is less apealing to me because it implies that the characters are more machine and less sentient, meaning they don't have emotions, personality, etc

But they aren't less sentient, so it implies nothing of the sort. Not to mention decades of robot fiction from Astro Boy to I, Robot to Wall-E to Transformers to Short Circuit are all about robots with sentience and fully functional emotions. Like it's one of the most basic robot tropes there are! Why the Bonkles fandom can't get that through their thick, metal-plated skulls I'll never understand.

[mysteriouspi]

But they aren't less sentient, so it implies nothing of the sort. Not to mention decades of robot fiction from Astro Boy to I, Robot to Wall-E to Transformers to Short Circuit are all about robots with sentience and fully functional emotions. Like it's one of the most basic robot tropes there are! Why the Bonkles fandom can't get that through their thick, metal-plated skulls I'll never understand.

Because we have thick, plastic-plated skulls.

No but seriously I agree with you. Apparently when Hero Factory was the main constraction line (I wasn't around at the time), some people were complaining about the Heroes because they were robots and therefore couldn't have emotions or personalities. And yet they evidently did.

And you're absolutely correct, it is very common for story robots to have emotions and such. Star Wars, anyone?

[Clone 01354 Productions]

But they aren't less sentient, so it implies nothing of the sort. Not to mention decades of robot fiction from Astro Boy to I, Robot to Wall-E to Transformers to Short Circuit are all about robots with sentience and fully functional emotions.

It just makes it harder to understand for me. When I look at things such as droids in Star Wars, like C-3PO, of course they're shown with personalities and a "soul". But when you try to think about it, it is extremely confusing and mind-crushing to just attempt to make sense of HOW they can have a soul.

To me, the concept that a being's cells could evolve to the point that it takes on the appearance and characteristics of a metal is more** believable than the idea that a guy makes a computer, and then POP--it now has a soul!

**Still pretty confusing, but at least it is somewhat scientifically possible. Animals can grow shells, or exoskeletons, and it is possible for it to evolve into harder substances.

[Quisoves Pugnat]

To me, the concept that a being's cells could evolve to the point that it takes on the appearance and characteristics of a metal is more** believable than the idea that a guy makes a computer, and then POP--it now has a soul!

How could you tell such a thing? You are not the robot, and so you cannot see what it sees. Whether or not it is actually observing, as opposed to merely responding, the end result would be indistinguishable to anyone else, methinks. Are R2D2 and C-3P0 aware?.We really have no evidence one way or the other, in the Star Wars films.

That said, we are talking about fictional universes, which are not obliged in any way to follow the rules of our universe.

E: I absent-mindedly wrote "physical universes." Oops. =P

Edited February 7, 2015 by Quisoves Pugnat

[Cirkit]

Picked up the Protector of Fire tonight. Having a blast posing him around with the Skull Spider latching on his legs, ripping off his mask, being riddled with stud-shots.. I dislike the lack of elbows, but luckily it looks alright on him in person.

Hoping to pick up LOSS or PoI soon ^^

[ToaDraco]

This talk of Matoran/Protectors assembling their children reminds me of that mediocre RoBoTs animated movie with Robin Williams where the start of the movie is the protagonist's parents putting him together after his parts were shipped to them in a box. Honestly, I think with what we have seen, the Protectors birth and raise children as we do and it isn't meant to be focused on, just something to make them relateble and 'normal'. The way this subject was handled in gen1 was just rather strange and distancing in terms of relateabillity of the characters, which is something you really don't want when trying to create a compelling story.

[dviddy]

The series says "father to son" and "across generations" and we have a clearly child-sized Protector-kid and everyone gets into a big discussion/argument over whether or not there's biological reproduction (like there is assumed in almost all media in the history of civilization, even in kids' franchises) or whether they build themselves like they did in G1. And people arguing about what's confirmed and what's not canon and all I can think of is "man G1's literal word of God canonization via Greg ruined the franchise's ability to handle subtlety and ambiguity".

The sooner that dies out for the new line the better.