Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Grima]

Funny you should criticize the way that everything was "dangerous" in the later years, as if it wasn't in the beginning with giant Rahi rampaging through villages and trapping Matoran underwater, for example. Plus which sci-fi/fantasy stories can you think of that are happy-happy-joy-joy all the time? None, because if there were any, they would suck.

Funny you assume disliking one extreme means going straight to the other. is everything that black and white to you? can you see pandas and zebras, or only half of them?

[Toa of Gallifrey]

What are you referring to? Lewa? I'm not exactly sure which post you're replying to, there's so many. XD

Lewa's always been Master of Jungle, even in the INITIAL name leaks we've got. The only people who insisted otherwise were those trying to grasp at paper-thin straws to ease their fears of a reboot.

I think Jay's referring to Okoto (or Okoto, which is it? I've seen both and I don't remember which was the right one). We got this name from an FAQ document, it's gonna be the name of the island that'll be 2015's setting if the document is legit.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Toa of Gallifrey

[Still Raindrop]

No. I want something, anything, from one of its years past Mata Nui to be referenced.

Like, say, the Mask of Creation, for example?

[Kalhiki]

About the Mask of Creation:

2015 seems to be going for a reboot (as in, dropping the old story in favor of a new one. Thought I'd say that to avoid confusion). So what does that say about the MoCr? We don't know if it'll belong to Artakha in this story. Just because it's called the Mask of Creation, can we assume that that's how it looks in the original story?

In other words: Are we going to accept this appearance of the Mask of Creation as the appearance of Artakha's mask in the original story? I assume we could considering the similarities between the Toa's masks.

Also:

is everything that black and white to you? can you see pandas and zebras, or only half of them?

I'm sigging this.

[Lord-Vorahk]

If you want to relive Bionicle 1.0, then go read the stories and comics, play the MNOGs, and dig out your old sets. This Bionicle is a new story for a new generation of fans, not an attempt to please the same group who stopped buying sets and led to the line's cancellation. The presence of the original Toa (I'm not calling them the Mata, because they're neither the same in body, or in character. Similar, yes, but the same, no.) isn't a sign that they're going to pander to us in the old guard. It's a hook to get us interested, before they move on to new things.

We've already got the original Bionicle story. We don't need it again. Seriously, a straight-up remake would be so dull. Here's the story of Mata Nui! He's a robot. This is his evil brother, Makuta! He's the leader of a bunch of viruses in armour, and he's going to win in the eighth year. Here are the legendary Toa, heroes who share a common goal! Now watch them squabble like children for most of their adventures. Here's Matoro! He's going to die. Remember all of this stuff? Great, have some sand!

Most of the worthwhile characters from later years started out on Mata Nui anyway. With the villains, they were either dealt with in flashbacks or had very story-specific roles.

[King of Nynrah]

Like, say, the Mask of Creation, for example?

Yeah, except Greg's been hinting that it has virtually nothing to do with the original MoCr anyway. The name "mask of creation" on its own could mean a lot of things, and now it means something else to what it originally did.

They probably didn't use the name "Mask of Life" because they didn't want little kids to stumble across the old story online, because it was a pretty major plot point.

[Dorek]

No. I want something, anything, from one of its years past Mata Nui to be referenced. It feels like when people talk about Bionicle, the island of Mata Nui is all they seem to think of, when it was much more than that. I get the impression that if it was the average EB member writing the new story, it would just be a bunch of natives with funny masks running around an island and hitting rabid animals for the rest of time.

Aanch made some great points about this before, but what you have seen is the faintest slice of what BIONICLE could be. Not to mention the Mask of Creation, which is pointedly a post-Metru Nui invention. You're very determined to think that LEGO trying to create a thoughtful homage to the BIONICLE line is deliberately excluding you from enjoying it.

Even if this was the only wave we get, it has all the hallmarks of the line we knew, and seems like a damned good attempt at making it fresh.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Dorek

[Loki]

No. I want something, anything, from one of its years past Mata Nui to be referenced. It feels like when people talk about Bionicle, the island of Mata Nui is all they seem to think of, when it was much more than that. I get the impression that if it was the average EB member writing the new story, it would just be a bunch of natives with funny masks running around an island and hitting rabid animals for the rest of time.

Funny you should criticize the way that everything was "dangerous" in the later years, as if it wasn't in the beginning with giant Rahi rampaging through villages and trapping Matoran underwater, for example. Plus which sci-fi/fantasy stories can you think of that are happy-happy-joy-joy all the time? None, because if there were any, they would suck.

Anything? Like what? What could they reference past the initial start of the series, into the latter parts, that would make sense? The Metru-Nui characters were all rather integral to that plotline, so I'm doubting we'd see a Toa Vakama pop up from the get go. Maybe they could use the name "Morbuzakh" to not be a murderous plant, or something? But that's the only thing I can really imagine they could reuse without forcing it.

Rahi rampaging, etc... were not written as dark, gritty encounters where we read along as matoran are stabbed and killed on the pages. They weren't dark gods from an analogy of Hell come to do whatever, they weren't bloodthirsty warlords who held six armies that trampled upon whatever they pleased, there wasn't such a focus on bloodshed, on cruelty and on sticking as many dark themes as they could in the early years. Voya-Nui and beyond are pretty far removed from Mata-Nui (even before then, really) not to mention how the entire genre of the story changed to more sci-fi because of one setting change.

I can't think of many stories that aren't without conflict, but darkness and edginess and grittiness doesn't make a good story. It makes a terribly contrived, trite story that's been done to death already and exists purely for shock value and has little content and character.

[Bfahome]

If you're willing to write off the entire line based on one wave of sets that haven't even been released yet, then okay. Bye!

No point in arguing any more than it was arguing with the people who thought they knew everything about The Legend Reborn from the teaser trailer.

Or thought they knew everything about how Hero Factory was going to be from vague leaked shop descriptions.

[King of Nynrah]

Aanch made some great points about this before, but what you have seen is the faintest slice of what BIONICLE could be. Not to mention the Mask of Creation, which is pointedly a post-Metru Nui invention. You're very determined to think that LEGO trying to create a thoughtful homage to the BIONICLE line is deliberately excluding you from enjoying it.

Even if this was the only wave we get, it has all the hallmarks of the line we knew, and seems like a damned good attempt at making it fresh.

See my post which is literally above this one that I'm quoting now.

I'm complaining that they are excluding me because I'm a fan who didn't get interested in 01, and that seems to be all they are going off. Is that so hard to understand?

Anything? Like what? What could they reference past the initial start of the series, into the latter parts, that would make sense? The Metru-Nui characters were all rather integral to that plotline, so I'm doubting we'd see a Toa Vakama pop up from the get go. Maybe they could use the name "Morbuzakh" to not be a murderous plant, or something? But that's the only thing I can really imagine they could reuse without forcing it.

Rahi rampaging, etc... were not written as dark, gritty encounters where we read along as matoran are stabbed and killed on the pages. They weren't dark gods from an analogy of Hell come to do whatever, they weren't bloodthirsty warlords who held six armies that trampled upon whatever they pleased, there wasn't such a focus on bloodshed, on cruelty and on sticking as many dark themes as they could in the early years. Voya-Nui and beyond are pretty far removed from Mata-Nui (even before then, really) not to mention how the entire genre of the story changed to more sci-fi because of one setting change.

I can't think of many stories that aren't without conflict, but darkness and edginess and grittiness doesn't make a good story. It makes a terribly contrived, trite story that's been done to death already and exists purely for shock value and has little content and character.

It'd be nice if the Matoran (assuming there are some in the new story, but of course they'll probably be called something generic like "villagers") could make masks out of different kinds of powerful disks, for example. That would be a nod to the Metru-Nui arc, which wouldn't cause a lot of confusion or as Greg would say, "open a can of worms".

As to your point about it being purely shock value, having little content blah blah blah, that's your opinion. Don't present it as fact.

[Lyichir]

No. I want something, anything, from one of its years past Mata Nui to be referenced. It feels like when people talk about Bionicle, the island of Mata Nui is all they seem to think of, when it was much more than that. I get the impression that if it was the average EB member writing the new story, it would just be a bunch of natives with funny masks running around an island and hitting rabid animals for the rest of time.

Funny you should criticize the way that everything was "dangerous" in the later years, as if it wasn't in the beginning with giant Rahi rampaging through villages and trapping Matoran underwater, for example. Plus which sci-fi/fantasy stories can you think of that are happy-happy-joy-joy all the time? None, because if there were any, they would suck.

Crazy idea: maybe they're not referencing years past 2001 because they want to save ideas for future years. Unless you WANT this to be a one-and-done theme, surely even you can see that introducing the entirety of the Bionicle universe in the first year would be a bad idea.

But I don't see why I'm arguing with you, because you're so full of idiotic pretensions none of it is going to get through to you. You are the epitome of the worst kind of Bionicle fan, and I'm glad Lego isn't pandering to people like you—the theme will be all the better and more successful for it.

[Bfahome]

I'm complaining that they are excluding me because I'm a fan who didn't get interested in 01, and that seems to be all they are going off. Is that so hard to understand?

Sounds more like you're complaining that they aren't pandering to you, specifically.

You are not being "excluded" from anything. The fact that your fancies aren't the ones being tickled yet is a really vain reason to write off the whole thing, even more so when you describe it as "excluding" you.

[Still Raindrop]

Yeah, except Greg's been hinting that it has virtually nothing to do with the original MoCr anyway. The name "mask of creation" on its own could mean a lot of things, and now it means something else to what it originally did.

They probably didn't use the name "Mask of Life" because they didn't want little kids to stumble across the old story online, because it was a pretty major plot point.

But it's still a reference. Arguing that it isn't would be like arguing that, because these Masters could have different personalities or powers, their names and masks aren't references to the 2001 story. They may not be exactly the same (or they may--who knows), but they are at least named after and inspired by the Toa Mata. Same with the Mask of Creation--it doesn't have to be the exact same to be a reference or a nod. I haven't seen what Greg's been hunting, but I doubt that we know too many specifics about this mask yet (particularly since Greg is a master of the non-answer).

Honestly, I'm fine if you don't like Bionicle 2015, and even if you decide against it before finding out what the story is (after all, if you go into something convinced that you're not going to like it, chances are you'll be right), but it does, in fact, have references from post-2001 Bionicle, and even post-Mata Nui Bionicle.

[GK733]

The theme is not meant to be reintroduced only little kids in mind, nor do us. It's being intorduced as what it was back in 2001 and made it succesful and will grow on from that. I'm okay with tribal start but hope we will get to know about the universe around Otoko and the planet, or whatever a little sooner.

Dudes in cloaks and only creating in mind is not enough for me of the GBs.

It's like... you think you are about to see the God right after your death and there's nothing. It just stops.

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

As to your point about it being purely shock value, having little content blah blah blah, that's your opinion. Don't present it as fact.

Do you mean to say that it holds no value for being an opinion? You don't exactly discuss why you disagree, all you say is that it is an opinion, and then brush his ideas away.

What does that imply we might "fairly" do to your opinions, by your own reasoning?

Edited October 1, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[King of Nynrah]

Crazy idea: maybe they're not referencing years past 2001 because they want to save ideas for future years. Unless you WANT this to be a one-and-done theme, surely even you can see that introducing the entirety of the Bionicle universe in the first year would be a bad idea.

Even without acknowledging anything past the Mata Nui era, it still looks like everything has been dumbed down way more than it was originally, which is disappointing (again, assuming that the document leak is real). That is the reason why me and many others didn't care for HF. It claimed to be the successor of Bionicle and yet shared virtually no similarities to it whatsoever (they even changed the building system a year later!)

But I don't see why I'm arguing with you, because you're so full of idiotic pretensions none of it is going to get through to you. You are the epitome of the worst kind of Bionicle fan, and I'm glad Lego isn't pandering to people like you—the theme will be all the better and more successful for it.

lol ok. Not my fault that you're mad. I'm not trying to make anyone mad, just presenting my opinions. That is what a discussion topic is for, right?

[Loki]

Even without acknowledging anything past the Mata Nui era, it still looks like everything has been dumbed down way more than it was originally, which is disappointing (again, assuming that the document leak is real). That is the reason why me and many others didn't care for HF. It claimed to be the successor of Bionicle and yet shared virtually no similarities to it whatsoever (they even changed the building system a year later!)

Simplyfing something over complicated and full of unnecessary jargon is fine, especially since this is also to appeal to a young audience who likely would appreciate that simplification as they get into the story and start to understand it all. Those who want an over-complex, over-thought, over-extended version can look at the original line as that's what it was.

lol ok. Not my fault that you're mad. I'm not trying to make anyone mad, just presenting my opinions. That is what a discussion topic is for, right?

[...] blah blah blah, that's your opinion. Don't present it as fact.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Loki

[King of Nynrah]

Simplyfing something over complicated and full of unnecessary jargon is fine, especially since this is also to appeal to a young audience who likely would appreciate that simplification as they get into the story and start to understand it all. Those who want an over-complex, over-thought, over-extended version can look at the original line as that's what it was.

So the original terminology was over complicated and full of unnecessary jargon? I thought that was your favourite era!

Also please explain how I am presenting my opinions as fact.

Edited October 1, 2014 by King of Nynrah

[Bfahome]

So the original terminology was over complicated and full of unnecessary jargon? I thought that was your favourite era!

If you think people liked the '01 era because of the words then you really don't understand BIONICLE.

[Loki]

So the original terminology was over complicated and full of unnecessary jargon? I thought that was your favourite era!

... So? I don't understand what you point is, unless you're trying to invalidate my statement with preferences I had with the story direction... which I can criticize all day if I felt like it, anyhow.

My biggest point isn't that I loved 2001 more, though I liked that setting the most (not the... words?), but it's that Lego seems to want to recapture the atmosphere Bionicle had at the beginning, not the latter years. If they wanted to capture the latter years they may as well do a continuation. I'm not against things being referenced, but I am against things being forcefully referenced as it'll show in the story and ultimately distract and detract from whatever they were trying to do.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Loki

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

So the original terminology was over complicated and full of unnecessary jargon? I thought that was your favourite era!

Also please explain how I am presenting my opinions as fact.

You are not presenting your opinions as fact; however, you do seem to esteem your own opinions quite highly, while being dismissive of those belonging to everyone else.

Some bias is inevitable, but you look to have taken it to an extreme that makes these discussions exceedingly unpleasant. Perhaps you must learn to accept that, when voicing an opinion, you are opening it to criticism?

Edited October 1, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[Aanchir]

I'm complaining that they are excluding me because I'm a fan who didn't get interested in 01, and that seems to be all they are going off. Is that so hard to understand?

Have you considered that maybe getting to experience some of these story concepts that you missed out on originally could be a good thing? That you might still enjoy an island setting featuring the six original Toa even if you never had the chance to do so in the past?

Frankly, the BIONICLE theme's early years were some of it's most successful, so it's only natural the LEGO Group thinks of them as some of the ones with the most widespread and timeless appeal. That doesn't mean there aren't going to be any references to other years in the future of the revived BIONICLE theme, but complaining about them not showing up right away is like complaining about Picard and Worf not showing up in the recent Star Trek reboot. The LEGO Group is not going out of the way to exclude anyone. But they can't possibly include everybody's favorite characters, artifacts, concepts, and settings in a single wave.

Even without acknowledging anything past the Mata Nui era, it still looks like everything has been dumbed down way more than it was originally, which is disappointing (again, assuming that the document leak is real).

What about the document leak makes it seem dumbed down? Do you really think an FAQ to BIONICLE ought to include every bit of jargon in the theme? The reason this FAQ exists is so that store employees will be able to answer customer questions in a way that they will be able to understand. They don't need to know the entirety of the new story in complete detail to do that. If a customer asks what the BIONICLE story is, it won't do anybody any good for salesperson to say "sit down for a couple hours while I tell you about protodermis". Describing the story in its simplest, most relatable form tells the customer everything they'll likely need to know to make a purchasing decision.

And anyway, making something more accessible isn't the same as dumbing it down. The intelligence and sophistication of a franchise isn't measured by how confusing it is or how difficult it is to explain or how many words it can make up.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Aanchir

[King of Nynrah]

If you think people liked the '01 era because of the words then you really don't understand BIONICLE.

I guess I don't. I always saw it as an epic sci-fi/fantasy story, when it seems that only the "true fans!" are allowed to like it, with the reason that it's about "a bunch of natives with funny masks running around an island and hitting rabid animals".

Greg also stated that his favourite thing about Bionicle was the "depth and complexity of the story", so I guess he's wrong too. Good thing he's gone then, huh?

[Toa of Gallifrey]

Personally I was a fan of Metru Nui, Mahri Nui and Karda Nui most of all, with Mata Nui being one of the lower settings on my list, but I'm okay with a restart to the tribal feel. I'd like more sci-fi-ness later on but I'm just looking forward to things to come. I also really liked the convulted plot but I know I'm in the minority in that and thus I hope it's more streamlined.

[Bfahome]

it seems that only the "true fans!" are allowed to like it, with the reason that it's about "a bunch of natives with funny masks running around an island and hitting rabid animals".

Okay yeah, you definitely don't understand BIONICLE.