Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Nekchir]

It's funny, I knew people would make wild assumptions and criticisms about the new Bionicle, leading up to its grand release.

Edited October 1, 2014 by MonkeyChud

[Kalhiki]

I don't get that impression at all. When I think magic, I think mysterious supernatural powers. Have you read any books by Neil Gaiman? He writes some wonderful fantasy stories that are not the least bit subtle about invoking magical ideas or even the word "magic" itself.

I don't know. That's just how I feel with the term (I'm ashamed to say I haven't read any Neil Gaiman. I need to). I guess I don't really have any problems with "magic", but "raw magic" just sounds silly to me. Magic's magic. Is there really anything that can be "raw" about it? What's unrefined magic? (I guess we all have different interpretations of the concept)

Also, I'm the kind of person who doesn't really need explanation in anything. Toa have elemental powers because they do. Masks have powers because they do. Toa Stones turn Matoran into Toa because they do. It's part of the.... Magic of the theme. Why does a fantasy world need over explanation?

Whatever. I'm getting worked up over "raw magic" and discussing something that I could really care less about.

So. Okoto. That sounds cool. I can dig it.

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

...Or AWUWDPAUW for short! Wait, that's not short at all.

Something else to keep in mind is that starting BIONICLE with a more fantasy approach will help it stand out from Hero Factory for new users, just like its tribal-inspired masks and torso decorations.

I'll be quite pleased if we see a progression similar to BIONICLE 1, from a magical to technological setting. It would also be interesting if, instead of transitioning smoothly, with the magic being revealed as technology, there were actually some clash between literal magic, a parallel set of laws, and technology, the applied primary laws of the BIONICLE universe, similar to the conflict in Arcanum.

Actually, that would be neat as a plot point. The MOCr being of "raw magic" would make it the ideal conduit for its wearer to use of parallel magical laws of the universe through... but at this point I'm starting to write a fanfic instead of speculating reasonably.

That's me! Think up a bunch of premises at inappropriate times and then never do anything with them!

Edited October 1, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[King of Nynrah]

I suppose I should have clarified that I'm assuming that the "leaked document" is legit, and going from there.

But let's face it, after the story that was given to Bionicle's replacement, and them kicking GregF off the story team (one of the only people at TLG who helped the story live up to its true potential), I have every right to be troubled by this development.

[Timeline15]

I'll be quite pleased if we see a progression similar to BIONICLE 1, from a magical to technological setting.

Only if it doesn't mean the inclusion of gratuitous silver in the colour schemes this time *shakes fist at mistika*

It would also be interesting if, instead of transitioning smoothly, with the magic being revealed as technology, there were actually some clash between literal magic, a parallel set of laws, and technology,

Wasn't that basically the toa vs the bohrok, or the toa metru vs the vahki? Speaking of which, I forgot about the vahki until just now. Funny how our "mystical" theme had full on robot enemies as early as 2004.

after the story that was given to Bionicle's replacement, and them kicking GregF off the story team

1: Greg wrote the HF story.

2: Greg wasn't "kicked off" the story team because there was to team to kick him off. He simply wasn't brought back on for the new Bionicle, and, for he record, he's acting as a consultant, something lego wouldn't have done unless they planned to build off the old themes or story in some way.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Timeline15

[Jetrax99]

I suppose I should have clarified that I'm assuming that the "leaked document" is legit, and going from there.

But let's face it, after the story that was given to Bionicle's replacement, and them kicking GregF off the story team (one of the only people at TLG who helped the story live up to its true potential), I have every right to be troubled by this development.

That's awfully close to saying "GregF IS BIONICLE". He isn't. Him not being on the story team doesn't mean it's automatically horrible.

[mysteriouspi]

I can guarantee that terms like Toa/Turaga/Matoran/Rahi/Kanohi won't be used in the story anymore either.

Um...the leaked document (should it be true) referred to the Toa as such. So there's that?

[Jetrax99]

Only if it doesn't mean the inclusion of gratuitous silver in the colour schemes this time *shakes fist at mistika*

Hey, the Mistika were awesome.

Plus, if you're going to complain about all their silver, the Phantoka were mostly grey.

[the last chronicler]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -Arthur C. Clarke.

I think people relate magic to lazy explanations when in reality any fake explanation is a fake explanation.

But what magic does is it draws from the same excitement that science gives us when we search for answers. Science gives us a 'how, 'but I think what were really looking for is a 'why'. The reason we explore science, the reason we look to the stars or the reason the Toa collect the Kanohi is far more important than the how, it's the kind of magic that plays to the soul, wheras explanation is exciting and cool, but without reason it's just empty facts.

Early Bionicle works because despite the mystery the characters do believe in themselves, and that they will reach there goals if they follow their hearts (and the UDD).

[Refy L.S.]

We can't really expect LEGO to use the old terminology right off the bat. How is a new fan meant to know what a "kanohi forged from protodermis" is? Of course we will be seeing more understandable words like 'magic' and 'gold'

Speaking of which, I hope they drop the 'everything is protodermis' thing if we are still in the MU. It made things awfully confusing.

[Grima]

I don't know. That's just how I feel with the term (I'm ashamed to say I haven't read any Neil Gaiman. I need to). I guess I don't really have any problems with "magic", but "raw magic" just sounds silly to me. Magic's magic. Is there really anything that can be "raw" about it? What's unrefined magic? (I guess we all have different interpretations of the concept)

It's simple, really. If magic is a natural resource, then its natural state could be described as raw, or unrefined. When applied by a being, it is then refined and directed. It's like any other resource, like iron. At least, that's my take on it.

Hey, the Mistika were awesome.

Plus, if you're going to complain about all their silver, the Phantoka were mostly grey.

Trust me, complaining about the Mistika's terrible color schemes and the Phantoka's terrible color schemes go hand in hand. Not a single terrible color scheme will go uncomplained about.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Grima

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

Wasn't that basically the toa vs the bohrok, or the toa metru vs the vahki? Speaking of which, I forgot about the vahki until just now. Funny how our "mystical" theme had full on robot enemies as early as 2004.

Similar, but I was thinking of it being an ideological conflict as well as a physical one. I suppose the conflict with the Vahki was sort of like that, with many of their staffs having power to temporarily return a Matoran to a more robotic state, but that was never a central plot point for 2004.

Edited October 1, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[Grima]

Wasn't that basically the toa vs the bohrok, or the toa metru vs the vahki? Speaking of which, I forgot about the vahki until just now. Funny how our "mystical" theme had full on robot enemies as early as 2004.

I said it was a combination of fantasy and sci fi, not one or the other. Remember that the robotic Vahki were still the opponents of beings who wear magical masks and wield magical elemental powers.

[InfurnallDragon]

Was it ever specifically said the that MOCr (I really love how that sounds like MoC'er in my mind) is also made of Protodermis? It might not even be craftable like the Mask of Time, as we know that no lesser form of the mask is possible as no disc combination is even possible. As a mask worn exclusively by a Great Being it may indeed have its own (insert applied phlebotinum here).

I said it was a combination of fantasy and sci fi, not one or the other. Remember that the robotic Vahki were still the opponents of beings who wear magical masks and wield magical elemental powers.

I hold this belief about BIONICLE too. To me its also just part of the Biomechanical motif, where magic can be organic and Sc-Fi is more mechanics.

Edited October 1, 2014 by InfurnallDragon

[Aanchir]

I can guarantee that terms like Toa/Turaga/Matoran/Rahi/Kanohi won't be used in the story anymore either. I suppose it's my fault for getting my hopes up and thinking perhaps that TLG would find some way to honour the fans that had stuck with it till the very end and beyond, but I was wrong.

They've done plenty to honor the fans who stuck with it. Just not the needlessly picky and demanding ones. I apologize if you fall into that category.

(I'm ashamed to say I haven't read any Neil Gaiman. I need to).

His latest book The Ocean at the End of the Lane could be a great place to start!

1: Greg wrote the HF story.

What? No he didn't. He wrote five books and a handful of comics for the theme but wasn't on its story team and had no role in its story development that I'm aware of. Most of the comics were adaptations of the TV episodes, but saying that made him responsible for those episodes' story is like saying he was responsible for Legends of Metru Nui or C.A. Hapka was responsible for Mask of Light.

But with that said, treating Greg as the ONLY person who can do BIONICLE justice is beyond silly. Yes, he did a lot for BIONICLE. But he's not the ONLY person who did a lot for BIONICLE. And he's not the only person who COULD do a lot for BIONICLE. For every good story Greg wrote, there are hundreds that he DIDN'T, and hundreds that nobody has written — yet.

And anyway, if in the end it turns out the new BIONICLE isn't for you? Well, I guess that's unfortunate. But that doesn't mean it's a bad story. Other people might prefer different types of storytelling, for completely legitimate reasons. To some people, Greg's writing was the pinnacle of BIONICLE's storytelling. Other people preferred the movies. Other people preferred the Mata Nui Online Game. The new BIONICLE story doesn't have to cater to all those different storytelling preferences to remain faithful to the theme's concept.

BIONICLE was a story about powerful and righteous elemental heroes, magic masks, and dark forces bent on conquest. Even without using all of its characteristic jargon, that description is no less accurate.

[Dorek]

Was it ever specifically said the that MOCr (I really love how that sounds like MoC'er in my mind) is also made of Protodermis? It might not even be craftable like the Mask of Time, as we know that no lesser form of the mask is possible as no disc combination is even possible. As a mask worn exclusively by a Great Being it may indeed have its own (insert applied phlebotinum here).

If you mean original story...

Everything in the MU is made out of protodermis, so yes, this one was too. Artakha is not a Great Being (though mistaken for one often!), but is the only one known to use the mask. A disc combination doesn't have to be possible, either (ignoring some recent canonizations...) as the Ignika certainly was not made from disks, but is still made from protodermis.

But since this is probably a reboot, none of that matters. MoCr will do what it does.

[InfurnallDragon]

Sorry I keep forgetting he is Karzhanni's brother. Im still surprised there are no exceptions to the protodermis rule at all, even with super unique objects. This would definitely make it Bionicle's plot convenience wand.

I think the prescence of a goldish color in every Toa set has to mean something. Could they be making them out of some new element?

Edited October 1, 2014 by InfurnallDragon

[King of Nynrah]

They've done plenty to honor the fans who stuck with it. Just not the needlessly picky and demanding ones. I apologize if you fall into that category.

Like what? Reusing the names of the Mata? Because that's not what I meant. You could have checked out Bionicle when it first launched in 01, given up and walked away a year later, but you'd still know who they were when you decided to give it another go in 2015.

I'm talking about the fans who stuck with it to the very end. 2001-2010. Understand?

[Clone 01354 Productions]

"Okoto......Nope, I'm done! That's what did it for me; now I won't buy any!" SERIOUSLY PEOPLE? They brought back Bionicle, and the Toa Mata, and some people complained about the island's name? So what?

Also, not sure if anyone else pointed this out, but Kopaka has trans-blue hands!

[Aanchir]

Like what? Reusing the names of the Mata? Because that's not what I meant. You could have checked out Bionicle when it first launched in 01, given up and walked away a year later, but you'd still know who they were when you decided to give it another go in 2015.

I'm talking about the fans who stuck with it to the very end. 2001-2010. Understand?

Using the names of the Toa Mata, introducing new mask designs that echo the original masks, introducing the first physical version of the Mask of Creation, directly soliciting help from certain advanced builders within the community (still no telling what that consisted of, but I'm sure we'll find out in time), keeping the logo similar to how it's looked traditionally, sending out New York Comic-Con tickets to major AFOL fansites...

Frankly it doesn't matter how long fans stuck with BIONICLE. I stuck with it from 2001–2010 and I think most of what I've seen looks amazing. There are other people who were only BIONICLE fans for a shorter time, either towards the beginning, towards the end, or somewhere in the middle, who will probably still really like the new BIONICLE, and others in all of those categories who won't. Sticking with BIONICLE to the very end doesn't make you, or me for that matter, any more deserving of the LEGO Group's attention than people who only enjoyed it for a short time or even people who never experienced it. And expecting to see a lot of fanservice for long-time fans in what little we've seen is a bit selfish and impertinent. We've hardly seen anything, but already you're saying not enough of it has been targeted towards fans like you and me than what we've gotten!

The fact that you don't appreciate either the things that have been kept the same or the things that have changed (neither of which is inherently a bad thing for long-time fans) has nothing to do with how the LEGO Group feels about what you've put into BIONICLE and everything to do with how you feel about what they've put into it.

[Loki]

Like what? Reusing the names of the Mata? Because that's not what I meant. You could have checked out Bionicle when it first launched in 01, given up and walked away a year later, but you'd still know who they were when you decided to give it another go in 2015.

I'm talking about the fans who stuck with it to the very end. 2001-2010. Understand?

So, are you saying you want all the convoluted plots to be referenced, the characters that sat so far removed from the original direction Lego's trying to recapture with the new line to come back into this new story, or something? Since it seems more like Lego's rebooting what they had, which means starting over, which means going back to the beginning -- 2001 -- Six Toa Mata, island, with the unique tribal/mystic atmosphere they had in the early years (the stuff way later, or after this arch, wouldn't be seen yet?). I can't imagine them starting off in Metru-Nui with everything slowly devolving into unimaginative and uninspired science fiction, with dangerous islands, dangerous inhabitants, dangerous heroes, dangerous everything coming into the forefront.

Since... yeah, I mean, for knowing nothing about the story aside from the six heroes and some villains... what more could you want out of that, right now? They all have their old names, old elements (besides for, perhaps, Lewa if the Jungle thing turns out accurate), some have tools that reference their old tools (Nuva or Mata) and their masks are derivative of the old masks in some ways (and more so in some than others). There's a lot of iconography that's referencing the old story.

[Mandate]

Wait, what? When did the name change? Was it in the fresh batch of leaks we just got?

[InfurnallDragon]

I for one welcome our new Japanese BIONICLE theme, and our potential Keetongu remake overlords

Edited October 1, 2014 by InfurnallDragon

[Mesonak]

Wait, what? When did the name change? Was it in the fresh batch of leaks we just got?

What are you referring to? Lewa? I'm not exactly sure which post you're replying to, there's so many. XD

Lewa's always been Master of Jungle, even in the INITIAL name leaks we've got. The only people who insisted otherwise were those trying to grasp at paper-thin straws to ease their fears of a reboot.

[King of Nynrah]

So, are you saying you want all the convoluted plots to be referenced, the characters that sat so far removed from the original direction Lego's trying to recapture with the new line to come back into this new story, or something? Since it seems more like Lego's rebooting what they had, which means starting over, which means going back to the beginning -- 2001 -- Six Toa Mata, island, with the unique tribal/mystic atmosphere they had in the early years (the stuff way later, or after this arch, wouldn't be seen yet?). I can't imagine them starting off in Metru-Nui with everything slowly devolving into unimaginative and uninspired science fiction, with dangerous islands, dangerous inhabitants, dangerous heroes, dangerous everything coming into the forefront.

Since... yeah, I mean, for knowing nothing about the story aside from the six heroes and some villains... what more could you want out of that, right now? They all have their old names, old elements (besides for, perhaps, Lewa if the Jungle thing turns out accurate), some have tools that reference their old tools (Nuva or Mata) and their masks are derivative of the old masks in some ways (and more so in some than others). There's a lot of iconography that's referencing the old story.

No. I want something, anything, from one of its years past Mata Nui to be referenced. It feels like when people talk about Bionicle, the island of Mata Nui is all they seem to think of, when it was much more than that. I get the impression that if it was the average EB member writing the new story, it would just be a bunch of natives with funny masks running around an island and hitting rabid animals for the rest of time.

Funny you should criticize the way that everything was "dangerous" in the later years, as if it wasn't in the beginning with giant Rahi rampaging through villages and trapping Matoran underwater, for example. Plus which sci-fi/fantasy stories can you think of that are happy-happy-joy-joy all the time? None, because if there were any, they would suck.