Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Mandate]

That post I made... wasn't even directed at you. And when I mentioned people calling the theme childish for using terms like "raw magic" I was referring to comments I'd seen on other sites, not to yours. I'm sorry if you got confused and thought I was stereotyping/attacking you. =/

Oh, sorry. Just you seemed to be using something I said. I didn't think you were singling me out at all. My apologies. It was my fault for the confusion. Again, sorry. I've had a rough life when it comes to arguments and getting singled out by other people

[Kalhiki]

Why does everyone flip out over the term "raw magic"? Do you object to the term "raw materials"? All it means is magic in a pure, unprocessed form, like a natural resource

I feel "magic" has gained a connotation to it. I hear "magic" and think of the stereotypical wizard/magician with a wand and cape and whatever other paraphernalia. Applying the term magic to Bionicle just doesn't sit right.

"Pure energy" or an equivalent would sound much better and more... Bionicle-y to me.

[Grima]

I feel "magic" has gained a connotation to it. I hear "magic" and think of the stereotypical wizard/magician with a wand and cape and whatever other paraphernalia. Applying the term magic to Bionicle just doesn't sit right.

"Pure energy" or an equivalent would sound much better and more... Bionicle-y to me.

...even though "pure energy" is far more nonsensical than "raw magic"?

[Aanchir]

I feel "magic" has gained a connotation to it. I hear "magic" and think of the stereotypical wizard/magician with a wand and cape and whatever other paraphernalia. Applying the term magic to Bionicle just doesn't sit right.

I don't get that impression at all. When I think magic, I think mysterious supernatural powers. Have you read any books by Neil Gaiman? He writes some wonderful fantasy stories that are not the least bit subtle about invoking magical ideas or even the word "magic" itself.

Another interesting fact: The term "magic" is actually fairly commonplace in girl-oriented marketing whereas boy-oriented marketing will often favor more "macho" terms like "Power". BIONICLE was no stranger to this. Find the Power, Power Lies Beneath, Battle for Power... those kinds of cliche slogans almost started to feel like a bad joke by the end. I'm not saying that the new BIONICLE will be marketing itself with less ridiculously masculine approach, but if it were to do so... I sure wouldn't complain. A little less testosterone won't kill anyone.

...even though "pure energy" is far more nonsensical than "raw magic"?

I actually can't hear "pure energy" without thinking of the final episode of Galidor: Defenders of the Outer Dimension. "You wanted power... let's see if you can handle it!"

That's... actually one of maybe three or four episodes I've seen.

[Lord-Vorahk]

I think magic carries a bit of a stigma because of these two little phrases:

"A wizard did it!"

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it!"

It's gained a reputation as an easy way for writers to avoid giving their universe cohesion.

[Grima]

I think magic carries a bit of a stigma because of these two little phrases:

"A wizard did it!"

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it!"

It's gained a reputation as an easy way for writers to avoid giving their universe cohesion.

Bionicle's no stranger to that. How do disks work? Toa's elemental powers? How is Protodermis able to take all those forms? How, exactly, do Matoran turn into Toa with stones full of "energy"? Waving things off is all part of the Bionicle tradition. They just never outright said "magic".

EDIT: Oh, and how could I forget Vakama's visions? never got an explanation for those.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Grima

[InfurnallDragon]

I think magic carries a bit of a stigma because of these two little phrases:

"A wizard did it!"

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it!"

It's gained a reputation as an easy way for writers to avoid giving their universe cohesion.

You can also do this by waving the "advanced technology" wand baton as well, which is something I pointed out in my first post on this site when we first reacted to the use of magic as an explanation. Using advanced tech as an explanation usually forces an author to go deeper in-depth with why some plot element works, which can get the main plot sidetracked while they spend a few pages telling you why this makes sense. Magic and other supernatural plot elements have the characteristic of being mysterious or organic. I still hope that they can use fantasy and science fiction at the same time. If it is done right (Eberron) it can turn out really great. I have always figured that BIONICLE was a bit of magic and technology to begin with, and it is one of the things I always liked about it.

Edited September 30, 2014 by InfurnallDragon

[GK733]

Bionicle's no stranger to that. How do disks work? Toa's elemental powers? How is Protodermis able to take all those forms? How, exactly, do Matoran turn into Toa with stones full of "energy"? Waving things off is all part of the Bionicle tradition. They just never outright said "magic".

EDIT: Oh, and how could I forget Vakama's visions? never got an explanation for those.

The reason why Bionicle went downhill was because they tried to explain nearly everything. I'm fine with magic. Magic is just a word for science you can't yet explain. eg. Masters think that the mask is forged from magic rather than ancient unknown technology used by... Great Beings?

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

You can also do this by waving the "advanced technology" wand baton as well, which is something I pointed out in my first post on this site.

Pretty much this.

Established rules, whether they be for magic or Warp Drives, are what make a universe coherent, not the terminology itself. Likewise, it doesn't matter whether or not you cloak an incoherent universe in technobabble, it's still a mess.

Edited September 30, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[Grima]

The reason why Bionicle went downhill was because they tried to explain nearly everything. I'm fine with magic. Magic is just a word for science you can't yet explain. eg. Masters think that the mask is forged from magic rather than ancient unknown technology used by... Great Beings?

That was my point, though. I was making the point that people were perfectly fine with unexplained things like those before, and it's ridiculous that they would suddenly not be fine if something similar happened but instead of saying "technology", they say "magic"

it's incredibly telling that people are more willing to accept the term "pure energy", which makes absolutely no sense, than the term "raw magic", which, in a world with magic, makes perfect sense.

[Timeline15]

As someone who lies it when little details are explained, I sort of dislike the use of the term magic, because, by definition, it works beyond the laws of physics and is unexplained. Basically, its a get out clause for never explaining how anything works. It doesn't strike me as something lego will bother making established rules for. Unfortunately, that seems to be exactly what everyone wants, since the old story was apparently "too convoluted/confusing".

I realise that just saying it's advanced technology is an equal cop-out, but at least that term holds the writer accountable to make some sort of explanation at some point. As it is, it's highly likely we will never know how the powers in this universe work, unlike in Bionicle 1, which, while welcome relief for some people, is an annoyance for me personally.

You have no idea how excited I was when the "great spirit" turned out to be a robot, and the Matoran that had previously just "blinked into being when needed" were now nanobots maintaining him. The strange processes that had happened throughout early Bionicle finally made sense. Hand-waving it away as something as unexplainable as magic just makes me worry that this universe won't have as much thought put into it.

Oh, and gold is a daft thing to make a mask out of. Super heavy and super soft. I hope Artakha has a robust neck.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Timeline15

[Grima]

As someone who lies it when little details are explained, I sort of dislike the use of the term magic, because, by definition, it works beyond the laws of physics and is unexplained. Basically, its a get out clause for never explaining how anything works. It doesn't strike me as something lego will bother making established rules for. Unfortunately, that seems to be exactly what everyone wants, since the old story was apparently "too convoluted/confusing".

I realise that just saying it's advanced technology is an equal cop-out, but at least that term holds the writer accountable to make some sort of explanation at some point. As it is, it's highly likely we will never know how the powers in this universe work, unlike in Bionicle 1, which, while welcome relief for some people, is an annoyance for me personally.

It really doesn't hold writers accountable for anything. As long as people are willing to let the issue drop at the terms "advanced technology", it will always be exactly like the term "magic". Anyone can whip it out, or some nonsense term like "hypertonic particles", and everyone just nods their head and goes "of course".

I doubt the new Bionicle will rely on magic any more than the old bionicle; it'll just call a duck a duck instead of an Autonomous Waterfoul Unit With Diving Processors And Ultra Wings

[Timeline15]

The tiny optimist in me hopes that it would be more than technobabble, and actually have thought out processes and the like, but I don't know how likely that ever was...

My large preference of sci-fi over fantasy probably plays a part in my opinion too (though one wonders why I was so unimpressed by Hero factory in comparison to bionicle then, even before it became apparent that the story of HF was rubbish )

Edited September 30, 2014 by Timeline15

[The Kumquat Alchemist]

As someone who lies it when little details are explained, I sort of dislike the use of the term magic, because, by definition, it works beyond the laws of physics and is unexplained. Basically, its a get out clause for never explaining how anything works. It doesn't strike me as something lego will bother making established rules for. Unfortunately, that seems to be exactly what everyone wants, since the old story was apparently "too convoluted/confusing".

I realise that just saying it's advanced technology is an equal cop-out, but at least that term holds the writer accountable to make some sort of explanation at some point. As it is, it's highly likely we will never know how the powers in this universe work, unlike in Bionicle 1, which, while welcome relief for some people, is an annoyance for me personally.

"Magic" is exactly what LEGO used in BIONICLE 1, under the name of Energized Protodermis; it did whatever the plot required of it, eventually gaining sentience and becoming the cause of Spherus Magna's Shattering. Introducing the vague concept of "Destiny" as the determinator for how beings are affected by EP was no better. They both seem like the get out clauses you dislike.

Also, what laws of physics are you referring to when you say that magic, by definition, works outside of them; the laws of our universe, or the fictional universe in which magic is used? Because by the laws of our universe, the technology of BIONICLE is hands-down magical, and in another universe, magic or similar could be a part of its laws or a parallel set of laws, such as the Alchemy used in Fullmetal Alchemist.

Lastly, I think technobabble-laden sci-fi, though quite willing to give "explanations" for its miraculous feats, leaves the writers less accountable for coherency, since they can cloak incoherent absurdities behind a veil of misused scientific terms, whereas an author writing about magic will be called out for inconsistencies far more quickly.

Edited October 1, 2014 by The Kumquat Alchemist

[Grima]

Bionicle has always been a combination of sci fi and fantasy; people just insisted on tearing more and more of the fantasy away as time went on.

As a general rule of thumb, if it can only be explained by bonesiii pulling something out his pseudological rear, it was probably never meant to be explained.

[Dorek]

See, I usually find that it's actually the other way around. "Advanced technology" gets a pass because delving into the scientific complexities is going to turn your book into a different genre than intended (i.e. Ender's Game), while magic always has a very clearly defined set of rules of what it can and cannot do.

[Timeline15]

I suppose it's because I got into Bionicle in 2006, when the more techy feel had overtaken the tribal, mystic theme. The Inika canister were all barbed-wire and stuff. I didn't even really follow the story until 2008, so I only ever really saw the futuristic, sci-fi esque toa designs etc.

I'm not adverse to magic as a whole (indeed, I watch a show where tiny colourful horses talk about little else), I guess it just doesn't fit with what I had experienced Bionicle as being like. This will really be my first time experiencing Bionicle the way it was back in 2001, so that should be interesting at least.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Timeline15

[CabooseBM]

Congratulations! You've discovered a couple things that BIONICLE has always, always had in common with Power Rangers! And realized for the first time that BIONICLE was ruined in 2001, but you were able to ignore it because like Power Rangers it was part of your childhood! Have a cookie!

Holy cow Aanchir that snark is so thick I could cut it with a knife, spread it on toast, and consume it as nourishment.

You should do that more often! =P

[Zenerius]

It's funny to see everyone making this assumptions based on a single word in a teaser. "Magic" was probably just thrown in there to invoke an effect of mystery. We've seen stuff like that before; somebody at Lego slips a word and the community goes crazy.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Zenerius

[Aanchir]

I doubt the new Bionicle will rely on magic any more than the old bionicle; it'll just call a duck a duck instead of an Autonomous Waterfoul Unit With Diving Processors And Ultra Wings

...Or AWUWDPAUW for short! Wait, that's not short at all.

Something else to keep in mind is that starting BIONICLE with a more fantasy approach will help it stand out from Hero Factory for new users, just like its tribal-inspired masks and torso decorations.

[King of Nynrah]

They should have just stuck with HF if they're going to dumb it down this much. This isn't BIONICLE, just a shadow of 2001 with generic villains and no alien terminology whatsoever. Apart from the six Toa Mata (who aren't even going to be called that anymore), there is absolutely no relation to the real BIONICLE at all.

I can guarantee that terms like Toa/Turaga/Matoran/Rahi/Kanohi won't be used in the story anymore either. I suppose it's my fault for getting my hopes up and thinking perhaps that TLG would find some way to honour the fans that had stuck with it till the very end and beyond, but I was wrong.

I'll be back in a few years to see if the story has evolved to a point where it's worth bothering about - but I did that with HF, and look where that ended up.

[Mesonak]

^ok

In the meantime, if legitimate, this all sounds pretty intriguing! I look forward to seeing where this goes.

[Zenerius]

They should have just stuck with HF if they're going to dumb it down this much. This isn't BIONICLE, just a shadow of 2001 with generic villains and no alien terminology whatsoever. Apart from the six Toa Mata (who aren't even going to be called that anymore), there is absolutely no relation to the real BIONICLE at all.

I can guarantee that terms like Toa/Turaga/Matoran/Rahi/Kanohi won't be used in the story anymore either. I suppose it's my fault for getting my hopes up and thinking perhaps that TLG would find some way to honour the fans that had stuck with it till the very end and beyond, but I was wrong.

I'll be back in a few years to see if the story has evolved to a point where it's worth bothering about - but I did that with HF, and look where that ended up.

We can't really make too many assumptions on the story based on what we've already seen, but pretty much all of us have known that the new Bionicle would be more accessible for younger audiences. Sure, those terms may not be used by Lego themselves, but it doesn't mean we can't use them.

[Timeline15]

I can guarantee that terms like Toa/Turaga/Matoran/Rahi/Kanohi won't be used in the story anymore either.

Do you know something we don't?

Also, I've said it before an I'll say it again. There's no reason to believe they're dropping the term toa, as that term rarely appeared on the actual set canisters early in Bionicle's run. Also, I doubt lego would be daft enough to try and name a species "masters", when some toa will inevitably be young or inexperienced. (I hope to god they don't decide to stick to the mata for the whole run. Alpha team all over again).

Heck, this may even be a sort of "soft reboot" not in terms of story, but in terms of terminology. Lego uses basic names to draw in a wide audience, but old fans can see the story with a greater depth. Everyone's happy.

None the less, I hope for the inclusion of Bionicle-esque names, as that's mainly what separates it from HF. (and even that dabbled a bit later or, Scarox anyone?) Ironically, a more Bionicle sounding name than "lord of skull spiders".

Edited October 1, 2014 by Timeline15

[Mesonak]

Even if they DO hypothetically end up dropping BIONICLE terminology, while that would be unfortunate, it wouldn't immediately torpedo the storyline. It is possible to tell a well crafted story without using a lot of odd-sounding words, even if those words were part of what INITIALLY made BIONICLE unique.