Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[3rdeye88]

I hope they don't bring old molds back in whichever form. New stuff will always be more interesting than what we've already seen. As long as it's compatible with earlier systems that is and seeing as it's Lego, it's bound to be, in one for or another.

I definitely agree that new parts are interesting, but what if they brought back some pretty cool older parts in some cool recolors? Wouldn't that be worth it? Hero Factory still employes some Bionicle parts(piraka feet are annoyingly on most of the Ultrabuilds), so they could still bring some old parts back. I kinda wish they would if it means old parts in new colors. Any particular piece you'd love to see recolored? I personally love Tahu Mistika's mask but it sucks it only ever came in dark red. That mask would probably be my favorite if it came in black or silver. Some more translucent weapons would be pretty rad to if they could do that.

[@l3x]

If there is a new theme next year, I'd be interested to see if it centers around the new high-friction towball receptacles. I know that's basically what Mixels is, but they could separate the two lines by focusing on more conventional humanoid characters. Or maybe even produce mini bones with 3mm holes instead of the technic pinholes, and mini HF-style shells that snap onto the towball.

Just fantasizing.

[WARHEAD]

Any particular piece you'd love to see recolored?

Not really to be honest. The ones I use have been released in a myriad of colors already and the ones I don't are way too specialized or I just don't like their aesthetics.

Also, Kanohi are extremely boring when used as heads, IMO.

[Anexcuse]

Not really to be honest. The ones I use have been released in a myriad of colors already and the ones I don't are way too specialized or I just don't like their aesthetics.

Also, Kanohi are extremely boring when used as heads, IMO.

Eh, I like them, but I do kind of see what you mean, I do agree that some of them do look boring, but I do like the Garai mask.

[3rdeye88]

If there is a new theme next year, I'd be interested to see if it centers around the new high-friction towball receptacles. I know that's basically what Mixels is, but they could separate the two lines by focusing on more conventional humanoid characters. Or maybe even produce mini bones with 3mm holes instead of the technic pinholes, and mini HF-style shells that snap onto the towball.

Just fantasizing.

I'm hoping for a hybrid system. Standard CCBS ball and socket joints but then like mini ones for fingers and toes and tapered articulation. How cool would it be to have a part with both kinds of ball joints on it? Lego basically needs to make this but as one piece. I'm really hoping we get to see Mini ball joint style fingers/minifig sized arms next year now that the system is in place. Maybe they'll do Minifig heros again but with these instead, thus making them true mini-heros. *squee*

Not really to be honest. The ones I use have been released in a myriad of colors already and the ones I don't are way too specialized or I just don't like their aesthetics.

Also, Kanohi are extremely boring when used as heads, IMO.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Aanchir, don't fault the system just because you sucked at using it. "its too specific" no, you're just not creative enough to find a use for that part. I dare you to find a bionicle part I can't use. You're talking to a guy who NPU'd BURPs and LURPs without even realizing it. And I'll tell you the same thing I also told Aanchir, by themselves both systems have some weaknesses, but together Bionicle and Hero Factory cancel out each other's short comings with their strengths. Where Hero Factory is too Generic, Bionicle has a nice specific look solution somewhere in it. Where Bionicle lacks the versatility and structure, Hero Factory's bone system makes up for that. Together, they work really really well.

To a point, yeah they can be boring, but sometimes the best solution is to use a mask as a mask. Example. Masks/heads are really great for shaping though.

Very recent example.

Example(Both Bionicle and HF masks in this one)

Another example.

Look, this one uses a whole bunch of masks!

And that's without going to grab other people's examples.

Like I said...Don't fault the system because you sucked at using it.

[WARHEAD]

Like I said...Don't fault the system because you sucked at using it.

Not faulting the system, I just don't like how the parts look. Is that too hard to understand? Pretty sure I talked to you about this like a few times already.

Also throwing insults around is not really an argument.

As for the masks thing, you apparently didn't even read my post. I said masks being used for HEADS on characters are boring. Using them as armor or whatever crap is good.

Edited February 23, 2014 by WARHEAD

[VBBN]

I'm not exactly sure how arguing about the use age of parts has anything to do with the end of hero factory.

When it inevitably ends, I think we will see all new parts. The parts give the theme it's aesthetic. With bionicle, the parts were very mechanical, whereas these parts are very flat and "clean". I might like to see a more rustic studded metal type of look or perhaps organic.

[DraikNova]

Considering the nature of the details (mostly gears and similar), what the Bionicle parts often implied was that the characters were (in-story) unfinished, without time put in to cover things up, which makes sense giving the reason the Toa, Matoran, Mata Nui, etc. were built, i.e. as a last ditch attempt.

More to the point, it's kind of rude to insult someone, 3rdeye. Anyway, the new building system allows for getting the same complexity much quicker, and without the need for extraneous detailing (which, in my case, caused a Kardas MOD to fall and make a several-inch dent in the wooden floor. You can see why I prefer the newer system).

Mostly, I think the nature of the modern parts is very functional; the details are things you only have to add later, making each part exponentially more useful. On top of this, the cost for the molds is probably increased if you add more details to a single part, so relying on simpler parts drives the parts count up. By making details optional, HF gives you more and more useful parts for the same price.

[3rdeye88]

Not faulting the system, I just don't like how the parts look. Is that too hard to understand? Pretty sure I talked to you about this like a few times already.

Also throwing insults around is not really an argument.

As for the masks thing, you apparently didn't even read my post. I said masks being used for HEADS on characters are boring. Using them as armor or whatever crap is good.

"are way too specialized" That's what everyone who harps on bionicle says about it. This is way too specialized.

And I had a response to that to. Sometimes the best solution is a simple one. But when over done or if that's all the MOCer does then I agree, its uncreative, boring and gets stale really fast.

I'm not exactly sure how arguing about the use age of parts has anything to do with the end of hero factory.

When it inevitably ends, I think we will see all new parts. The parts give the theme it's aesthetic. With bionicle, the parts were very mechanical, whereas these parts are very flat and "clean". I might like to see a more rustic studded metal type of look or perhaps organic.

I guess it doesn't have much to do with it. I won't mention it again.

The clean and flat thing is nice, but its also very aesthetically limiting because all the HF shells are angular and do give that very clean manufactured look then there's various addons that give different options. They were just getting back into some textural options with Brain Attack Last year. I'm with you on that one. Something more rustic, some wood characteristics and morefully organic options would be nice. I don't mind HF base armor parts I just wish they had more variants of parts that function just like HF armor but fundamentally looked different and then you could still do the addon thing. I know its got its own thread, but the LoC Ultrabuilds are the first step in that direction I think. Same function very different vibe about the look of the parts. So I'm actually looking forward to what ever comes next. If 2015 turns out to be the end of HF it wasn't that great IMO, the parts are really nice and that's about it.

Considering the nature of the details (mostly gears and similar), what the Bionicle parts often implied was that the characters were (in-story) unfinished, without time put in to cover things up, which makes sense giving the reason the Toa, Matoran, Mata Nui, etc. were built, i.e. as a last ditch attempt.

More to the point, it's kind of rude to insult someone, 3rdeye. Anyway, the new building system allows for getting the same complexity much quicker, and without the need for extraneous detailing (which, in my case, caused a Kardas MOD to fall and make a several-inch dent in the wooden floor. You can see why I prefer the newer system).

Mostly, I think the nature of the modern parts is very functional; the details are things you only have to add later, making each part exponentially more useful. On top of this, the cost for the molds is probably increased if you add more details to a single part, so relying on simpler parts drives the parts count up. By making details optional, HF gives you more and more useful parts for the same price.

That's like comparing digital photography and photoshop to traditional photography where you actually have to know what you're doing from setting the camera and developing the photo to get the composition right. HF is the Digital Camera And Photoshop of Constraction MOCing. You're right It does allow for more people to get the same level of complexity without as much work. The way you guys praise Hero Factory like that to me instead sounds like "Hero Factory, Bionicle, but for stupid uncreative people." The difference is Bionicle worked well on its own long before Hero Factory came along and Hero Factory just never really worked well on its own. Throw a pure Hero Factory build together and it looks like its missing a lot. Its gappy and only looks good from certain angles. It needs a lot of covering up to look even half way decent. That's why I'm half way hoping what ever they come up with next they either diversify it or do another type of system tweak to what already exists to address some issues. Because like I said before, HF does indeed address some of the issues Bionicle had but it came with its own, which Bionicle makes up for. Edited February 24, 2014 by 3rdeye88

[Aanchir]

The difference is Bionicle worked well on its own long before Hero Factory came along and Hero Factory just never really worked well on its own. Throw a pure Hero Factory build together and it looks like its missing a lot. Its gappy and only looks good from certain angles. It needs a lot of covering up to look even half way decent. That's why I'm half way hoping what ever they come up with next they either diversify it or do another type of system tweak to what already exists to address some issues. Because like I said before, HF does indeed address some of the issues Bionicle had but it came with its own, which Bionicle makes up for.

I disagree. I put pure HF builds together all the time and don't feel like they look incomplete. There's a simple seven-inch figure sitting on my desk right now that I've never photographed because it's not terribly unique in design. Nevertheless, it has very appealing proportions, and no part of it looks particularly gappy. There are even plenty of sets based on this building system that look remarkably complete. One I'm quite fond of is CHI Worriz.

In the meantime, there are plenty of BIONICLE sets that also look somewhat incomplete. Take Mistika Toa Tahu, for instance. Now, there are parts of this set I'm, to be honest, like the blades on the shins and the jets mounted on the torso. It definitely has a unique look. But its upper arms and legs are ridiculously thin compared to its lower arms and legs, and its chest is perfectly flat (and in some places, hollow or empty). In fact, a lot of BIONICLE parts were designed with conspicuous gaps as part of the aesthetic — these were decorative and would sometimes include pistons or other details. The Piraka torso is just one example — others include the Piraka upper leg shell and the Rahkshi lower leg beam. This problem was not limited to canister sets or small sets, either — some BIONICLE titan sets also had a somewhat gappy and incomplete look, such as Krekka or Maxilos (not to mention Ultimate Dume).

My point isn't that this is a fault of the building system. Creating a more solid, cohesive design with BIONICLE parts and building styles is not particularly difficult. But this is just as true of Hero Factory. Just because not every design looks complete doesn't mean that the building system is inherently flawed when it comes to creating complete-looking designs.

And of course, there's a certain amount of subjectivity involved in what looks complete and what does not. Since both Hero Factory and BIONICLE are based on robotic-looking characters, a certain amount of gappiness can be forgiven if it is built into a model's design aesthetic. One of my favorite Hero Factory sets is XT4. Many of XT4's arm and leg beams are not armored at all, but I like this look as it makes the model look like an industrial robot rather than an android with lots of naturalistic shaping and aesthetic polish. Krekka's gappiness can be somewhat forgiven in this regard as well — after all, even though he is not a drone-like character the way XT4 is, his overall aesthetic is still crude and asymmetrical, so it merits a less elegant, shapely design than the same year's Nidhiki or Nivawk.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Aanchir

[Jetrax99]

TBH, I don't know how they would end it as there's way too many loose ends (kinda like the last Maximum Ride book). For Bionicle, even though it was planned out past 2010, they still managed to find a decent way to wrap it all up.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Jetrax99

[Bfahome]

TBH, I don't know how they would end it as there's way too many loose ends (kinda like the last Maximum Ride book). For Bionicle, even though it was planned out past 2010, they still managed to find a decent way to wrap it all up.

Well Exo-Force just kind of stopped, so there's no guarantee of a clean ending.

[DraikNova]

Look, let's just stop this off-topic arguing before it descends into mutual Fan Dumb. We disagree, and arguing will just polarize our opinions.

[Aanchir]

TBH, I don't know how they would end it as there's way too many loose ends (kinda like the last Maximum Ride book). For Bionicle, even though it was planned out past 2010, they still managed to find a decent way to wrap it all up.

But how much is there to wrap up, really? It's not like BIONICLE where everything that happened for the whole lifespan of the theme was building towards a final confrontation, and also there were a bunch of side-stories that left major characters in mortal peril. Rather, the only loose ends/cliffhangers are setting up possible future stories. They may very well have been included just to leave the door open for future storytelling opportunities, including non-canon play opportunities for fans. (Brain Attack 2: Electric Boogaloo!)

Nor is it like Exo-Force where the resolution of an entire story year is being left open-ended. Each story year to date has had a beginning, a middle, and an end. Even if the ending doesn't wrap everything up neatly, the story for that year has still been told.

The main cliffhanger that was very definitely preparing for a story yet to be told was the whole galactic conspiracy thing in the chapter books, and since those were side-stories, that was never meant to be something that continued outside the book series. It was simply unfortunate that Scholastic wasn't interested in a sixth Hero Factory chapter book.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Aanchir

[VBBN]

It was made clear when the theme first started by Greg that Hero Factory would be episode based theme, storyline elements from one year would not continue to the next. Some things of course stay same, like characters, but the storyline of previously is basically "in the past". That decision was based on lego's attempt to make the story more kid-friendly, so they can jump in and not be missing out on information from previous years. So really, the theme can end at any time, I don't think that is going to be a factor in their decision. However as Meso has said I would expect it to be a "last hoorah" when they go out, but having very high stakes, powerful enemies, etc. Many think IFB is the end because it is such large monsters, but personally I'd like to see a "shadow team" or shattered glass version of the heroes. "The greatest conflict is within us" Would be an interesting tagline. However that's a completely different topic of discussion. Did we ever have a "what would you like to see next in hero factory thread?" If not, I think that may be in order.

Look, let's just stop this off-topic arguing before it descends into mutual Fan Dumb. We disagree, and arguing will just polarize our opinions.

I think I'm disappointed with how poorly the arguing has been handled. On an adult forum I would expect people to respect others opinions, and there has been a whole lot of not-that lately. If someone ha a valid point, then creating a new topic to share the thoughts is perfectly fine, but some of the hostility I've seen isn't the right way to go about it.

[dviddy]

I like Kanohi as faces and I also like Kanohi as armour and I think pieces can always be used for something other than intended, but also have a big bin of parts that I, personally, think are useless to me and the way I build. I like BIONICLE parts (especially that there are so many big chunky parts that make great structural parts on larger MOCs) but find myself using less and less of them as I progress with time, because I just enjoy the HF aesthetic so much more. The peices mesh with system parts aestheticall so much better it's unreal. I feel like I can finally actually make the action figure character MOCs I've always wanted to build. This is an exciting time.

If a new theme appears, I'm not particularly keen on the story, it is secondary to my usage, but I hope it's not terrible at the same time? A super-successful Ninjago type theme but constraction would be great- but I'd never expect it again. I just want some more great parts that err on the HF side of things aesthetically.

[WARHEAD]

I like Kanohi as faces and I also like Kanohi as armour and I think pieces can always be used for something other than intended, but also have a big bin of parts that I, personally, think are useless to me and the way I build. I like BIONICLE parts (especially that there are so many big chunky parts that make great structural parts on larger MOCs) but find myself using less and less of them as I progress with time, because I just enjoy the HF aesthetic so much more. The peices mesh with system parts aestheticall so much better it's unreal. I feel like I can finally actually make the action figure character MOCs I've always wanted to build. This is an exciting time.

If a new theme appears, I'm not particularly keen on the story, it is secondary to my usage, but I hope it's not terrible at the same time? A super-successful Ninjago type theme but constraction would be great- but I'd never expect it again. I just want some more great parts that err on the HF side of things aesthetically.

Agreed on all points. I've been shifting to System lately as well, for the very same reasons.

I guess I don't mind Kanohi that much when used as faces for Bionicle characters since it ties into the story or whatever but after so many years of seeing the same bunch of molds being reused over and over again it gets kinda dull and uninspired, you know? Just an opinion.

Edited February 24, 2014 by WARHEAD

[3rdeye88]

TBH, I don't know how they would end it as there's way too many loose ends (kinda like the last Maximum Ride book). For Bionicle, even though it was planned out past 2010, they still managed to find a decent way to wrap it all up.

I wouldn't hold your breath for a clean neatly wrapped up ending. They left pretty much every story arch open if they wanted to come back to it and unless they come with some grand mastermind scheme they'll probably remain roads that lead to nowhere.

Well Exo-Force just kind of stopped, so there's no guarantee of a clean ending.

Bfahome has a good point there.

[3rdeye88]

I disagree. I put pure HF builds together all the time and don't feel like they look incomplete. There's a simple seven-inch figure sitting on my desk right now that I've never photographed because it's not terribly unique in design. Nevertheless, it has very appealing proportions, and no part of it looks particularly gappy. There are even plenty of sets based on this building system that look remarkably complete. One I'm quite fond of is CHI Worriz.

In the meantime, there are plenty of BIONICLE sets that also look somewhat incomplete. Take Mistika Toa Tahu, for instance. Now, there are parts of this set I'm, to be honest, like the blades on the shins and the jets mounted on the torso. It definitely has a unique look. But its upper arms and legs are ridiculously thin compared to its lower arms and legs, and its chest is perfectly flat (and in some places, hollow or empty). In fact, a lot of BIONICLE parts were designed with conspicuous gaps as part of the aesthetic — these were decorative and would sometimes include pistons or other details. The Piraka torso is just one example — others include the Piraka upper leg shell and the Rahkshi lower leg beam. This problem was not limited to canister sets or small sets, either — some BIONICLE titan sets also had a somewhat gappy and incomplete look, such as Krekka or Maxilos (not to mention Ultimate Dume).

My point isn't that this is a fault of the building system. Creating a more solid, cohesive design with BIONICLE parts and building styles is not particularly difficult. But this is just as true of Hero Factory. Just because not every design looks complete doesn't mean that the building system is inherently flawed when it comes to creating complete-looking designs.

And of course, there's a certain amount of subjectivity involved in what looks complete and what does not. Since both Hero Factory and BIONICLE are based on robotic-looking characters, a certain amount of gappiness can be forgiven if it is built into a model's design aesthetic. One of my favorite Hero Factory sets is XT4. Many of XT4's arm and leg beams are not armored at all, but I like this look as it makes the model look like an industrial robot rather than an android with lots of naturalistic shaping and aesthetic polish. Krekka's gappiness can be somewhat forgiven in this regard as well — after all, even though he is not a drone-like character the way XT4 is, his overall aesthetic is still crude and asymmetrical, so it merits a less elegant, shapely design than the same year's Nidhiki or Nivawk.

Very good points there but I have to disagree about the completeness look of Hero Factory. A prime example that stands out in my mind is this. And I'd consider the look that a HF shell on a bone piece when looked at from the other angle as incomplete. I don't have CHI Worriz yet but I imagine that if you spin him around and look at him from the back he doesn't look so good. Bionicle definitely had its case of this to but it wasn't so blaringly obvious and took far less effort to cover up. A Shin piece took maybe one lift arm or a brick or plate to cover it up decently. There was also more solid connections to do that in those parts to. OOO or OO pin holes which clutch studs. You only get that on the extra long bone pieces and none at all in the bottom three smallest bone parts(I believe you guys refer to them as A and B beams?). Hero Factory has to be put more back to back to look good from all sides. Bionicle carried its aesthetics throughout the parts, front, back side to side. The very part you use is an example of that, the Piraka torso.

I would say your bit about the MOC sitting on your desk is an indication of what I mean. You can throw together something simple that looks alright, but its nothing special. It took way more thought and ingenuity to get something nice out of bionicle. It required more of the builder and that's why I maintain that it was a better system than HF was/is. So when you say you build better with Hero Factory, that's like saying "I play this game better on easy mode." That's just how I see it being a long time bionicle MOCer who had quite a collection of MOCs about 6-7 years before HF ever came around.

It was made clear when the theme first started by Greg that Hero Factory would be episode based theme, storyline elements from one year would not continue to the next. Some things of course stay same, like characters, but the storyline of previously is basically "in the past". That decision was based on lego's attempt to make the story more kid-friendly, so they can jump in and not be missing out on information from previous years. So really, the theme can end at any time, I don't think that is going to be a factor in their decision. However as Meso has said I would expect it to be a "last hoorah" when they go out, but having very high stakes, powerful enemies, etc. Many think IFB is the end because it is such large monsters, but personally I'd like to see a "shadow team" or shattered glass version of the heroes. "The greatest conflict is within us" Would be an interesting tagline. However that's a completely different topic of discussion. Did we ever have a "what would you like to see next in hero factory thread?" If not, I think that may be in order.

I think I'm disappointed with how poorly the arguing has been handled. On an adult forum I would expect people to respect others opinions, and there has been a whole lot of not-that lately. If someone ha a valid point, then creating a new topic to share the thoughts is perfectly fine, but some of the hostility I've seen isn't the right way to go about it.

That would be a good Thread. *nods* I also think a big "huh" with hero Factory this year is that they didn't ever explain what was up with the guy sending out the brain bugs all over the place. That was very much set up as a "next week on..." and then we just pick up with some construction dudes digging a hole. It was a bit jarring for anyone actually following the series. So unless they circle back on it, It looks like it'll remain a mystery, a-"Why did the chicken cross the road? He look a penny, OH NO THE PENNY IS CURSED!" Some of us are still wondering what was up with the chicken.

I'm sorry. I know I've contributed to the hostility. But I feel its that classic "Your opinion is fine, so long as it agrees with mine' which mine often doesn't. I contributed to it to in turn. Two wrongs don't make a right.(but three rights make a left).

[3rdeye88]

I like Kanohi as faces and I also like Kanohi as armour and I think pieces can always be used for something other than intended, but also have a big bin of parts that I, personally, think are useless to me and the way I build. I like BIONICLE parts (especially that there are so many big chunky parts that make great structural parts on larger MOCs) but find myself using less and less of them as I progress with time, because I just enjoy the HF aesthetic so much more. The peices mesh with system parts aestheticall so much better it's unreal. I feel like I can finally actually make the action figure character MOCs I've always wanted to build. This is an exciting time.

If a new theme appears, I'm not particularly keen on the story, it is secondary to my usage, but I hope it's not terrible at the same time? A super-successful Ninjago type theme but constraction would be great- but I'd never expect it again. I just want some more great parts that err on the HF side of things aesthetically.

I couldn't agree more with you about the fact that the parts are the best thing and the story has fallen by the wayside, at least as a secondary thing. I Was a big fan of the story aspect of Bionicle though. So to see that become what it has with HF was saddening and a little angering.

Overall my MOCing has moved more to a style of blending everything. I've taken to integrating way more smaller system elements into my MOCs and using Bionicle and HF interchangeably. Dala is probably a good example of that. I try to break it down to a more simple aspect of shape recognition. "does this Bionicle part or HF part have the right shape I need here?" The biggest decision I make when I start a MOC now is how much system will factor into it. And it varies from almost none at all to greatly. And I've done a few predominantly System MOCs. I also buy way more system sets than I used to. I find I use my bionicle weapon and armor parts more now than I use like the body parts, torsos, and stuff like that.

Agreed on all points. I've been shifting to System lately as well, for the very same reasons.

I guess I don't mind Kanohi that much when used as faces for Bionicle characters since it ties into the story or whatever but after so many years of seeing the same bunch of molds being reused over and over again it gets kinda dull and uninspired, you know? Just an opinion.

Your system MOCs have been really neat to BTW. Very simple but effective approach to things.

[Aanchir]

Very good points there but I have to disagree about the completeness look of Hero Factory. A prime example that stands out in my mind is this. And I'd consider the look that a HF shell on a bone piece when looked at from the other angle as incomplete. I don't have CHI Worriz yet but I imagine that if you spin him around and look at him from the back he doesn't look so good. Bionicle definitely had its case of this to but it wasn't so blaringly obvious and took far less effort to cover up. A Shin piece took maybe one lift arm or a brick or plate to cover it up decently. There was also more solid connections to do that in those parts to. OOO or OO pin holes which clutch studs. You only get that on the extra long bone pieces and none at all in the bottom three smallest bone parts(I believe you guys refer to them as A and B beams?). Hero Factory has to be put more back to back to look good from all sides. Bionicle carried its aesthetics throughout the parts, front, back side to side. The very part you use is an example of that, the Piraka torso.

See, I disagree that the back side of a shell looks incomplete. At least, with the smaller shells. With 90650 or 90652 you might want to do something to cover up the reverse side, since it leaves such a considerable gap. But the back of a Hero Factory beam covered with one of the narrower Hero Factory shells looks no less complete to me than the back of a BIONICLE beam covered with a BIONICLE shell (like the Piraka, Inika, or Metru thigh shells). And I never had any sense that an exposed beam looked "incomplete" in BIONICLE, either — in fact, I find many attempts to fill in the back of a BIONICLE beam to be terribly inelegant, since they just add unnecessary bulk.

Also, if you're using those larger Hero Factory shells, chances are you're also using a larger beam, which means it will have additional Technic pin holes, so filling in the back is not an impossible task.

I would say your bit about the MOC sitting on your desk is an indication of what I mean. You can throw together something simple that looks alright, but its nothing special. It took way more thought and ingenuity to get something nice out of bionicle. It required more of the builder and that's why I maintain that it was a better system than HF was/is. So when you say you build better with Hero Factory, that's like saying "I play this game better on easy mode." That's just how I see it being a long time bionicle MOCer who had quite a collection of MOCs about 6-7 years before HF ever came around.

So, what am I getting from this? A good building toy should place high demands on a builder? I don't agree with that idea whatsoever. The LEGO System has been so successful in part due to being simple and user-friendly. More complex building systems like Erector/Meccano are still with us, of course... but they have not been nearly successful enough to be the foundation of the second-largest toy company in the world. In my eyes, Hero Factory has brought things more on par with LEGO System in this regard. It is more design-oriented and less engineering-oriented. It takes less time and effort to figure out how to make things work, so you can focus that effort on figuring out how to make things work best. And it's not just a matter of simplifying things for kids' sake — what's good for kids is often good for adults as well.

And for the record, I'm not much of a gamer anymore, but back when I was, "easy mode" was my territory. Once I'm investing more into an experience than what I'm getting out of it, that's when I begin to lose both patience and interest. Part of the reason I stopped playing video game was because I realized my time and energy was much better spent on self-expression, whether that was in the form of creative activity or online discussion. And nowadays, if I do play any games, I am what some people would call a "filthy casual". New Super Mario Bros. and Professor Layton are more my speed than any RPG, MMOG, or FPS.

I understand that some people get a thrill out of games and hobbies that demand a lot from them, but that's not me. I admire the elegance of a difficult, thought– and reflex-intensive game just as much as I admire the elegance of an incredibly large and elaborate LEGO MOC or a detailed painting, but it's not the sort of thing I want to be investing my time and energy into when I can get just as much enjoyment out of simpler, less ambitious challenges.

[bacem]

correct me if i'm wrong, but why did the conversations suddenly shifted to "which one is better between HF and bionicle"?. isn't this feels kinda off-topic?

[3rdeye88]

See, I disagree that the back side of a shell looks incomplete. At least, with the smaller shells. With 90650 or 90652 you might want to do something to cover up the reverse side, since it leaves such a considerable gap. But the back of a Hero Factory beam covered with one of the narrower Hero Factory shells looks no less complete to me than the back of a BIONICLE beam covered with a BIONICLE shell (like the Piraka, Inika, or Metru thigh shells). And I never had any sense that an exposed beam looked "incomplete" in BIONICLE, either — in fact, I find many attempts to fill in the back of a BIONICLE beam to be terribly inelegant, since they just add unnecessary bulk.

Also, if you're using those larger Hero Factory shells, chances are you're also using a larger beam, which means it will have additional Technic pin holes, so filling in the back is not an impossible task.

So, what am I getting from this? A good building toy should place high demands on a builder? I don't agree with that idea whatsoever. The LEGO System has been so successful in part due to being simple and user-friendly. More complex building systems like Erector/Meccano are still with us, of course... but they have not been nearly successful enough to be the foundation of the second-largest toy company in the world. In my eyes, Hero Factory has brought things more on par with LEGO System in this regard. It is more design-oriented and less engineering-oriented. It takes less time and effort to figure out how to make things work, so you can focus that effort on figuring out how to make things work best. And it's not just a matter of simplifying things for kids' sake — what's good for kids is often good for adults as well.

And for the record, I'm not much of a gamer anymore, but back when I was, "easy mode" was my territory. Once I'm investing more into an experience than what I'm getting out of it, that's when I begin to lose both patience and interest. Part of the reason I stopped playing video game was because I realized my time and energy was much better spent on self-expression, whether that was in the form of creative activity or online discussion. And nowadays, if I do play any games, I am what some people would call a "filthy casual". New Super Mario Bros. and Professor Layton are more my speed than any RPG, MMOG, or FPS.

I understand that some people get a thrill out of games and hobbies that demand a lot from them, but that's not me. I admire the elegance of a difficult, thought– and reflex-intensive game just as much as I admire the elegance of an incredibly large and elaborate LEGO MOC or a detailed painting, but it's not the sort of thing I want to be investing my time and energy into when I can get just as much enjoyment out of simpler, less ambitious challenges.

Okay if you want to get specific. This is exactly what I'm talking about. The gaps in the bionicle armor part are more part of the aesthetics. The gaps in the HF armor is ...I don't even know. Its certainly not helping. And the worse part, if I wanted to used this design there really isn't **** I could do to make that look any better or cover that hideous mess up. However the BIonicle part gives me plenty of connection points in the exactly same amount of space to put something over that if I felt it needed covering up. A simple 1X3 lift arm in dark red would probably be enough. Sure, it may be bulkier but at least I have the option to work something in there. HF has this nice clean flat aesthetic, until you look at the underside of it and then it looks like a kibbly mess. And I can't stress the options thing enough.

So, what am I getting from this? A good building toy should place high demands on a builder? I don't agree with that idea whatsoever. The LEGO System has been so successful in part due to being simple and user-friendly. More complex building systems like Erector/Meccano are still with us, of course... but they have not been nearly successful enough to be the foundation of the second-largest toy company in the world. In my eyes, Hero Factory has brought things more on par with LEGO System in this regard. It is more design-oriented and less engineering-oriented. It takes less time and effort to figure out how to make things work, so you can focus that effort on figuring out how to make things work best. And it's not just a matter of simplifying things for kids' sake — what's good for kids is often good for adults as well.

My counter argument is then why is Technic still so wildly successful? There's more coming out this year. A more complex engineering based system is exactly what technic is. So clearly there's a place for that. Bionicle was built off the back of that system so it was inherently engineering oriented from day one. Bionicle at first was a stylized form of technic...which is still around. You say it brings it more in line with system. Well we already have system. Go build with that then if its too complicated for you. "what's good for kids is often good for adults as well." I absolutely don't agree with that.

I like my friend Liam's(welcometothedarksyde on Deviantart) take on things. Targeting a slightly older demographic has the advantage of including them but still getting younger kids interested because young children often want to partake in what the older kids are doing. You look at advertizing and that a common tactic used in the commercials. The toy itself may be intended for a younger demo but they get a kid(kids) a few years older to be in the commercial. I think lego could have the best of both worlds here. Have the simpler "canister" figure style sets and provide a range of complexity throughout the theme with bigger sets. Towards the end that's what Bionicle had with the canister figures, then the varying pricepoint vehicles. The best thing to come out of HF design wise in my opinion was Witch Doctor and even that was kinda hamfisted and clunky.

And for the record, I'm not much of a gamer anymore, but back when I was, "easy mode" was my territory. Once I'm investing more into an experience than what I'm getting out of it, that's when I begin to lose both patience and interest. Part of the reason I stopped playing video game was because I realized my time and energy was much better spent on self-expression, whether that was in the form of creative activity or online discussion. And nowadays, if I do play any games, I am what some people would call a "filthy casual". New Super Mario Bros. and Professor Layton are more my speed than any RPG, MMOG, or FPS.

I understand that some people get a thrill out of games and hobbies that demand a lot from them, but that's not me. I admire the elegance of a difficult, thought– and reflex-intensive game just as much as I admire the elegance of an incredibly large and elaborate LEGO MOC or a detailed painting, but it's not the sort of thing I want to be investing my time and energy into when I can get just as much enjoyment out of simpler, less ambitious challenges.

I see what you mean. That's a very fair point I think. To each their own. In the grand scope of things I'd say hero factory is the "normal difficulty" setting, Bionicle "hard mode" and technic the "ultra hard" mode. At least it can be when on the level of guys like Sheepo or Sariel.

correct me if i'm wrong, but why did the conversations suddenly shifted to "which one is better between HF and bionicle"?. isn't this feels kinda off-topic?

*looks at which topic this is* Oh you're completely right. I don't know why but I thought this was the HF discussion topic. Aanchir and I should probably move that conversation elsewhere or start its own thread.

[Jetrax99]

Oh...here's a thought. Display your figures from the front, and then those "gaps" as you call them won't bother you.

But...seriously. Gaps? Really? Are you that desperate to find a fault in the system in order to prove it's inferior to bionicle? If you are, good luck, you're not gonna find one. That so called "gap" is for the armor to attach, just like bionicle armor.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Jetrax99

[Transparency for Effect]

For people thinking it's a BIONICLE return (if that idea's still relevant :p ): This'd be a fun idea, but with nothing besides the statement it pretty much also suggests that Slizers or Robo Riders could come back.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Transparency for Effect