Problems with BS / Is BrickShelf no more ???

[Troy]

Actually I believe I said I wouldn't post in that thread anymore, which wasn't a problem since you locked it after you told me off.

Actually it was talked about on the Bricklink forums that it was going pay, and was I wrong about that?

Except we've all seen that isn't the case. And if he is, god bless him, but I will not allow my right to have an opinion become infringed upon by someone with an ego-boosted power trip.

Your exact words:

"I'm not replying in another thread about BS if one pops up."

Something stated on BrickLink, by someone not involved with BrickShelf, does not make it fact.

And how have we seen that this is not the case? Kevin could very well be working right now, we have no way of knowing. And that is what is at the core of my issues with you (and others). You don't know, but yet you make statements as if you do.

You call Kevin an extortionist just because a loophole got blocked. You have no knowledge of his motives, but that doesn't stop you. It is equally possible that if the site is having bandwidth issues, that someone watching the server log files at the host blocked https when they saw the jump in traffic.

It is also way to late for you to take the moral high ground on this issue. You have been negative from the start and you continue to be negative. Blaming me for it when I call you on it is laughable.

It has nothing to do with me having an "ego-boosted power trip". It has to do with you not knowing the difference between expressing an opinion and making a personal attack.

Troy

[Starwars4J]

Something stated on BrickLink, by someone not involved with BrickShelf, does not make it fact.

And how have we seen that this is not the case? Kevin could very well be working right now, we have no way of knowing. And that is what is at the core of my issues with you (and others). You don't know, but yet you make statements as if you do.

And you also talk like you know, and yet you have no proof. So maybe you should allow both opinions to live until there's something one way or the other, instead of just censoring everything that is contrary to your 'holy opinion'.

You call Kevin an extortionist just because a loophole got blocked. You have no knowledge of his motives, but that doesn't stop you. It is equally possible that if the site is having bandwidth issues, that someone watching the server log files at the host blocked https when they saw the jump in traffic.

Oh yes, I had a theory, how DARE I have a theory. You called us all a bunch of vultures because we used a free site. What exactly gives you that right?

It is also way to late for you to take the moral high ground on this issue. You have been negative from the start and you continue to be negative. Blaming me for it when I call you on it is laughable.

I'm trying to take the moral highground? Let's see, I express an opinion that you don't agree with. Instead of talking to me about it, you BLOCK ME. Instead of trying to calm the community, you scream at them, instilling fear, and ban the only person who actually doesn't turn tail. What exactly is wrong with you that you can't sit down and have a nice, civil conversation? Why must you ban? Why must you lock? Why must you run away?

It has nothing to do with me having an "ego-boosted power trip". It has to do with you not knowing the difference between expressing an opinion and making a personal attack.

Troy

First of all, I think you're the one who doesn't know the difference. You made a personal attack on the entire community. Who in god's name do you think you are to do that sort of thing? Not only do you owe me an apology, you owe one to every single person on classic-castle and LUGNet.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Starwars4J

[dviddy]

And how have we seen that this is not the case? Kevin could very well be working right now, we have no way of knowing. And that is what is at the core of my issues with you (and others). You don't know, but yet you make statements as if you do.

You call Kevin an extortionist just because a loophole got blocked. You have no knowledge of his motives, but that doesn't stop you. It is equally possible that if the site is having bandwidth issues, that someone watching the server log files at the host blocked https when they saw the jump in traffic.

Sure, bandwidth.

Except Maj, which from what I understand shares not only a server with BS, but most of the coding, and even files and protocols themselves, which brings in more bandwidth than BS, which gains near twice as many files a day as BS, is still there.

There is no reason for any of us to think anything but a purposeful and intentional shut down. Maj still exists. All the BS files still exist, we know, we saw them on the backdoor. Then the backdoor was shut, and locked. There was no way this was anything but intentional.

You know something we don't? Fine. Tell us what it is, or stop lording it over us. Kevin has proven himself an ineffective communicator with the on-line community, AFOL, or otherwise. He may have provided an essential service to the community, but his aloof status within the community, and his love of 'plug-pulling' is more than just a disrespectful slap in the face of the community he 'served'.

But what's worse than his lack of communication is your unexplainable 'I know something you don't know, now shut up, whining vultures' attitude. I lost five years worth of MOC pictures to this stunt Kevin is pulling.

YOUR attitude is a slap in the face to the community itself, and if this is what the AFOL leadership looks like, I'm glad I've stayed out of it. Those of us who lost so very, very much have every right to be angry and upset. A simple two days worth of notice would have sufficed. But this silence, and sudden plug-pulling?

Inexcusable.

And your excuses and pandering to the elitist Lugnet crowd is not going to help things in the community. You claim the community is unable to do anything, and is far too divided, and so it's laughable. Yet by making such comments, you do nothing to add to the unity in the community you belong to, and at the same time attack.

<<DV>>

Edited July 16, 2007 by Darth Vader

[Troy]

We all know that too. But where do you fit in to all this?

Now that I'm thinkin' about it, what is so dire that you can't speak of it?

Did the site go kablooey / get moved and Kevin's working on it? So what. We have patience.

Did he run out of money? So what? We have money.

Did he have no time? So what?We have volunteers.

Beyond that... the only other reasons are dark ones (that I can think of anyway).

You HAVE to realize that one is not a "whiney vulture" to lament it's sudden closing.

And I'm rather offended that you started the incivility by calling us names.

Where i fit in was clearly stated in my initial post to Lugnet and Classic-Castle. When the site went down, I wanted to see what I could do to help get it back. To this end I contacted people that I know that could help to that end. So I am simply a guy that wanted to help out.

I was then hit with the negativity generated initially on Lugnet and on Classic-Castle. This got me to thinking "What is the point of bringing it back, if all that you get are a bunch of people attacking you"? This is what directly lead to my posts.

I do understand that this has been poorly handled. And I do understand that people are rightiously upset about it. I too am upset about it. I just think it would be more constructive to discuss how to fix the problem than to whine and complain about it.

There is nothing dire about what I know. What I know is just incomplete and I do not want to make any assumptions. If I knew the full story, I would share, but I don't so I will refrain. It is people making assumptions, mostly negative, that have led to these arguments.

What I do know is that the images are all intact, and that is not merely because I saw them when the https backdoor was working. I am also confident that Kevin is doing his best so that nobody will lose any of their data. I am also confident that if Kevin does not bring the site back completely, there are others willing to do so.

I also know that those simply lamenting the loss of the site are not whiney vultures. That statement, like all inflmatory statements, has taken on a life of its own. It was not targetted at everyone, but rather to a very specific subset that went beyond lamenting to personal attacks on BrickShelf and Kevin.

Troy

[Starwars4J]

I also know that those simply lamenting the loss of the site are not whiney vultures. That statement, like all inflmatory statements, has taken on a life of its own. It was not targetted at everyone, but rather to a very specific subset that went beyond lamenting to personal attacks on BrickShelf and Kevin.

And yet you made that comment, and directed it towards me, when all I said was that he should have warned us. And this is also the first time I've heard you mention that you also thought this was so poorly handled.

What gives you the right to insult anyone, Troy? If you believe it was wrong of us to insult Kevin, was it not just as wrong of you to insult us? Was screaming and yelling to the point of scaring your userbase wise or just? Was calling names mature? If you were so right, if you are on the moral highground, how come so many people are disgusted by your actions? How come so many people were appalled at how you handled it? Not on EB, but right at your very home. I believe not everyone agreed with your decision? Maybe that's a sign that you took this too personally and too far. Your actions have been that of an angry little boy who is throwing a temper tantraum that people aren't listening to his opinion.

I hate to say this Troy, but not everyone does, or will agree with you. And just because you dislike what they say doesn't give you a right to take the action, or say the things you've said.

[JINZONINGEN73]

Troy:

Where i fit in was clearly stated in my initial post to Lugnet and Classic-Castle. When the site went down, I wanted to see what I could do to help get it back. To this end I contacted people that I know that could help to that end. So I am simply a guy that wanted to help out.

Good for you. But for us, Kevin is habitually a person who does not answer email, pulls plugs on websites he gets bored with, etc... ...there's noone to go to and ask how to help.

I was then hit with the negativity generated initially on Lugnet and on Classic-Castle.

You're suprised by negativity?

HOW?

Habitually absent communication

PLUS

Other sites pulled

PLUS

Very final sounding message

EQUALS "Oh my god, Brickshelf's been pulled too".

This got me to thinking "What is the point of bringing it back, if all that you get are a bunch of people attacking you"? This is what directly lead to my posts.

The point is, it's moral. People devoted years of their life to this art.

To not give them a chance to reclaim it is immoral, no matter how "free" it is.

Add in too, some people HAVE donated money to the site.

I do understand that this has been poorly handled. And I do understand that people are rightiously upset about it. I too am upset about it. I just think it would be more constructive to discuss how to fix the problem than to whine and complain about it.

PROBLEM... there was no "fixing" of zerostuds or geekshelf.

They were just GONE.

And there was no avenue of communication to plea for their life, or the hard work (content) people contributed to them.

The only "fix" appeared to be move on & create our own sites.

The only "fix" is Lego fans coming together to restore off disks and hard drives what little of our work's survived the test of time.

But fixing Brickshelf? We can't. How would the populace even go about it?!?

There is nothing dire about what I know. What I know is just incomplete and I do not want to make any assumptions. If I knew the full story, I would share, but I don't so I will refrain. It is people making assumptions, mostly negative, that have led to these arguments.

You'll refrain? But you're "confident" Kevin is working on restoring it? What? That's an assumption that gives what appears to be false, time-wasting hope.

Now, if what you know is not "dire", then what is the nature of your secrecy?

What I do know is that the images are all intact, and that is not merely because I saw them when the https backdoor was working.

Stop being childish and describe how you know what you know.

If this crisis is just regular, run of the mill internet website crashing, then stop acting like you're on some childish, inner circle of super-secret spy stuff.

Problem: Brickshelf went down with a final sounding message.

Cause: (fill in the blank)

It's not rocket science. And I'd be hard pressed to believe whatever data you have is so important, that it threatens the success of him fixing it.

I am also confident that Kevin is doing his best so that nobody will lose any of their data. I am also confident that if Kevin does not bring the site back completely, there are others willing to do so.

PROBLEM: It's easy to think, based on the past, and his final-sounding message, that he would have no care to be bothered handing over the data to a new operator. He got BORED / displeased with the direction of zerostuds, then instantly killed it.

If the brief moment he was seen was any indication, it was due to "kids" who like Bionicle swarming in.

Needless to say, Brickshelf has also been crushed under less-than-par Bionicle mocs as well.

I also know that those simply lamenting the loss of the site are not whiney vultures. That statement, like all inflmatory statements, has taken on a life of its own. It was not targetted at everyone, but rather to a very specific subset that went beyond lamenting to personal attacks on BrickShelf and Kevin.

Troy

Classic castle:

Troy:

Those that used the service for free, and then whined when it went down, without knowing the circumstances, are vultures.

Very specific subset? You realize just how many people you were going holier than thou on?

Lots of people use Firefox and never donate.

Lots of people use Google and never donate.

And with Brickshelf, if there was a plea to help keep the site alive, do you REALLY think it'd not be met with loving success?

Yes, I have paid money to BrickShelf in the past, because I found it a valuable service. If more people had done this, it is possible that the site would still be there.

So you're saying you know it was a money thing? Or is it assumption?

Claiming that you are owed something by someone who was providing a free service is whining. "Man, it sucks that BS went down" is expressing your opinion. "Kevin owed us a warning" is whining. You were owed nothing.

Granted. But saying, "Kevin did this AGAIN?!? Get the hell out! Is he selling it or did he lose interest again?!?"

is trying to BEGIN to work to a resolution. For once you know the story to something, you can go from there.

All he did was leave us guessing, which is NOT cool no matter how free it was.

By contrast, you do not know why BrickShelf is down, but yet are making judgements on what you are "owed"

Again, we might not know why Brickshelf is down, but his message was MOST FINAL in tone.

Look, if you were in an art gallery filled with your works that the owner let you place there for free (and which they aquired advertising revenue from)... you're saying it's A-OK for the doors to just be locked one day, your art still inside?

Dude... seriously? 8-

Edited July 16, 2007 by JINZONINGEN 73

[Norrington]

I've been watching from the side-lines, and to be frank Troy, you're fighting a losing battle.

This has been said before, but Kevin had ignored e-mails, and pulled plugs on 3 popular sites without warning.

I'm afraid he is not really responsible enough to run BS. He has to start communicating with the community. If he can't, he should give control of BS, and all the means of running it, to someone else.

That's all I have to say.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Norrington

[CopMike]

1. With all due respect, I think you guys that

[JINZONINGEN73]

14. TERMINATION ...... Brickshelf may also in its sole discretion and at any time discontinue providing the Service, or any part thereof, with or without notice. You agree that any termination of your access to the Service under any provision of this TOS may be effected without prior notice, and acknowledge and agree that Brickshelf may immediately deactivate or delete your Brickshelf folder and all related information and files in your Brickshelf folder and/or bar any further access to such files or the Service. Further, you agree that Brickshelf shall not be liable to you or any third-party for any termination of your access to the Service.

Yes, within his rights.

But at times, within your rights is not the same as doing what's right.

: /

[Vader]

Seems to me this is quite simple:

Fact: BS is down and we

[xwingyoda]

1. With all due respect, I think you guys that

[JINZONINGEN73]

It's not totally a non-issue.

This Troy says he knows something behind the scenes that only he knows, reassuring us we should just be patient, because he knows something noone else knows and we don't know it yet because we're not him, he who knows something we don't know.

Then again... I see your point. :-|

Edited July 16, 2007 by JINZONINGEN 73

[xwingyoda]

It's not totally a non-issue.

This Troy says he knows something behind the scenes that only he knows, reassuring us we should just be patient, because he knows something noone else knows and we don't know it yet because we're not him, he who knows something we don't know.

And so ?

Are we the owner of BS ? NO

Is there anything that we can do in that regard ? NO

Then its clearly a non issue ;-)

The fact that he claims he knows... that is irrelevent to us as of now. Let him gloat about that.

*yoda*

[Hinckley]

I actually used that reference the other day and nobody got it :'-( I can always count on you, Hinckley *wub*

On topic though, this sounds like quite a large undertaking. Are you guys actually considering it, or bouncing ideas off each other?

I'm just bouncing ideas around. I think the idea bounced me back into reality by the time I was done typing that post. :-D :-D :-D I certainly want to do something with the domain I purchased, but only time will tell...

as the old commercial said, "so the world would have to wait for those two great tastes to come together again."

[JINZONINGEN73]

The fact that he claims he knows... that is irrelevent to us as of now. Let him gloat about that.

*yoda*

Ah, I gotcha. Like when kids make topics that they've seen the 2009 Lego Star Wars line.

But can't show the pics because their computer's acting up.

You always make so much sense. *wub*

[Brainbox]

I'm away from the computer for a day, and all Hell breaks loose.

Thankfully, I've got half my pictures saved on a CD, and the other half still on my PC. So all I need to do is move the important ones to Maj, or set up a Flickr accoun. Or, if push comes to shove, I can host them on Photobucket or Imageshack. Sure, no one will be able to view them there, but I can still post them here.

However, that doesn't make it any better for the hundreds of users who don't have hard copies of their pictures. We know they still exist, but we can't get at them. And, not to breed worry, we don't know whether they will contiue to be 'there.'

The problem with making BS an obligatory pay-site is that it would divide the whole AFOL community, and distance large numbers of people. And what about all the younger users, or those users who can't afford to pay for the privilige of hosting their images on a site. What about children, or students? That includes myself. Budgetting is very important, and I'm having to work out what I can afford right now, having to take into account food, clothes, transport, magazine subscription fees, phone credit, new Lego purchases, film tickets, DVDs, etc.

It's an incredible blow to the whole Lego community, never mind just the AFOL one. I frequently checked out Brickshelf for other people's MOCs/MODs/set pictures, using them as either inspiration, or simply entertainment. The other sites just aren't as easy to browse. MOCPages only lets you upload a few pictures, and people are free to comment on your creations. That's not something I really want, with the exception of people here. Flickr tends to take a while to load the picture you're trying to view, and again there's the feedback thing. Maj isn't really for Lego, and since it's essentially the same as BS, it might be volatile. And Imageshack and Photobucket you can't really browse.

But like I said, I've got my pictures saved as a back-up, so I won't do anything with them yet, with the exception of my contest entries, which I'll probably upload to Maj for the time being, just so they can still be used as entries. I'll wait and see how this pans out, and if BS comes back, as it may well do, then good. If not, I'll have to find another route.

I mean, I've still got here.

[Siegfried]

On topic though, this sounds like quite a large undertaking. Are you guys actually considering it, or bouncing ideas off each other?

I think more bouncing. I am intending to write my own Peer-to-Peer program and this could be a good application, but I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. This isn't going to happen tomorrow, and probably not even this year, so it certianly isn't the solution to the current problem.

I did loose a whole lot of pics in there !! Look all the reviews I did that are now worthless >:-( Will I rant further on that ? NO because there is no point !! Will I move all those pics to Maj ? NO because I won't loose all the time !!

Darn. I forgot that. :'-( I just had a quick browse and noticed that most reviews are missing pictures now. Silly me assumed that admins had a lot of local server space and stored them here...

[Hinckley]

I think more bouncing. I am intending to write my own Peer-to-Peer program and this could be a good application, but I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. This isn't going to happen tomorrow, and probably not even this year, so it certianly isn't the solution to the current problem.

Thanks a lot, Sinner. And I thought we could count on you to save us |-/

I've heard no mention of MOCPages here. What are people's feeling about that site? It seems like an all right alternative and they've been around for a while. Their homepage says they are hosting people's LEGO images for free for the time being. Were they charging before? Or are they just covering their megablocks if their server suddenly crashes tomorrow and they need to purchase more bandwidth?

I have long wanted to see an alternative to Brickshelf that was by submission and judged. Meaning we wouldn't have a million blurry pictures of some kids Bionicle collection or other such non-sense. I think if I did something with the site I purchased it would be to get some good MOC builders together and have them help out deciding which MOCs to feature. Any one can submit photos, new creations posted once a week or something like that. Much easier than peer to peer apps, or trying to communicate with a walrus, for that matter. Those are just my first thoughts now that I've gone out and hastily purchase a domain...

[JINZONINGEN73]

I've heard no mention of MOCPages here. What are people's feeling about that site?

Played around with it when it first began.

DESPISED the interface.

Same with Flickr.

Same with EVERYWHERE not brickshelf. :-D

The simple interface is godlike. No gunk all over the place, quick access to pics, never (well, usually) goes down.

[Hinckley]

(snip) never (well, usually) goes down.

Unless it's abrupt an permanent :-D :-D :-D :'-(

[black bart(artamus)]

When i called bs a "backbone" earlier in this topic this is exactly what i thought would happen but, do any of you personally know kevin(probably not) at least how i see it, i'm not defending him but, we do not know the circumstances as to why he shut it down. If bs was to become a fee site i would not pay and i'm sure alot of others wouldn't either maybe the could have something on the new homepage saying they gratefully accept donations or something but, kevin probably has the sense to know it would not last as a paysite.

[Siegfried]

Thanks a lot, Sinner. And I thought we could count on you to save us |-/

-snip-

Those are just my first thoughts now that I've gone out and hastily purchase a domain...

Hey, don't blame me. I did say...

However, please don't get me wrong; I am not a miracle worker and I do not have the ability to produce this magical Peer-to-Peer index out of my M$g!Bl&cks overnight.

What did you get? "WalrusShelf.com" has a certain ring to it...

[Hinckley]

Hey, don't blame me. I did say...

What did you get? "WalrusShelf.com" has a certain ring to it...

I got ShutYourWalrusFace.com :-P

I hastily and whisky-impaired...edly bought brickdisplay.net ??!! *wacko* Most of my posts this weekend were whiskey induced as I am on vacation. I purchased a better domain that's more in line with what I'm capable of. I'll PM you about it as I don't want anyone to steal my half-baked idea!

[Brainbox]

maybe the could have something on the new homepage saying they gratefully accept donations or something but, kevin probably has the sense to know it would not last as a paysite.

They did on the old hompage.

[Widdi]

I'm just beginning to move my old BS-content over to maj.com. The Renderings will get up on there, too ASAP, which means when I found enough time to rehash them out of my CAD-Files. I'm still hoping, that BS gets resurrected but hopefully not as a pay-site. If it gets profit, I'll wait until a new FREE Lego-Image hosting server comes around, which is just a matter of time.