Difference between HE en creator trains

[snaphappyninja]

Hi there, newbie question and apologies if this has been answered elsewhere.

what's the difference between all of the current lego train sets? i.e. why am i spending £180 on a horizon express as opposed to £99 on a passenger train. i assume it's the motor and control functions but it's not obvious.

also what is the difference between current sets and the old sets? i have seen 9v and 12v advertised.

thanks

Mark

[jodawill]

The old 9V sets had metal on the tracks that carried the electricity. A lot of people seem to prefer those. The new ones have a battery pack inside the train, which can be difficult to hide in MOCs.

Without looking them up, I can tell you that the different train sets normally go like this:

a) Train with no power functions and little track, if any

b) Train with power functions, but little track and no extras

c) Train with power functions, lots of track, and a small building

The third one is the Cargo Train. I have the new one. It's expensive, but it's worth every dollar. It has everything you need to get started with Lego trains. I highly recommend it.

[snaphappyninja]

ah thanks for that, it starts to make a little more sense.

it did look like the contents of the sets were quite similar (except for, as you say, more stuff) so i was struggling to figure out what the difference was.

battery power will suit me at this point so will have a look and see what i can find.

thanks

[Jorrith]

The Horizon express is also an advanced "expert" model that has more complicated building techniques and higher parts count, geared for lego fans, while the regular train sets are more geared towards children as a building toy. The HE might be pricey, but it's a great passenger train if not the best Lego has released in years. Still have to get a set or two, but it's not a matter of if, but more a matter of when. ;)

As to track, if you do not intend to collect 9V era trains, you might be better off using the new PF rails. If you happen to collect 9V trains aswell like me, well... It might come in handy to have all your track of the 9V type (they interlock with the new rails, so you also could go hybrid using a 9V loop connected to a PF loop with 9V points)

Personally i would advise against the 12V system. Even though it has benefits like remote controlled (wired) points, lighting, and it is a awesome system with powerfull motors, replacing a motor will cost you, and grey era sleepers crack very easily so it does not seem a logical investment to me. (imho)

Same would be if you are investing in 9V track if you hardly have any 9V trains, or the need for a motorized train without PF. I love the 9V track simply because it has metal rails and i can run older trains, but the new PF system does have the big advantage that you can controll multiple trains on one track.

[jodawill]

Another advantage with the new system is that you can't easily make long tracks with 9V. You would have to have more than one power source for an extra long track.

I agree that you should use the new track if you don't have any old trains. It's definitely a plus that the RC tracks are still in production. I love being able to buy tracks from the Lego store.

[snaphappyninja]

again more excellent advice, thank you all.

as a beginner with nothing at all is there a set you would recommend? i've already had a recommendation for the cargo train and that looks fairly comprehensive as a start. any other recommendations and any comments on kit from ebay?

ta

[Jorrith]

The new cargo train 60052 is a nice set to start with, however it might be better to start with the 7939 cargo train because that one will be on sale more frequent now since the new set is out. (60052 will eventually replace 7939) You can get 60052 anytime when it's on sale. :) I've got the 7939 set before the new set whas out, and even though i don't particulary like the train in the set, (i preffer the red diesel from 3677, but that set is now discontinued for a while) it has a nice load of tracks and accessories.

But it all depends, if you like cargo trains more than passenger trains, that's a start. Even starting out new, i would look for a good deal when purchasing a new set, even the 7938 red passenger train can be owned for just 80 euro's if you wait for the right deal. The 2014 sets will also go on sale eventually, so personally i'd go for those last unless you really want them.

[JopieK]

Hi Mark,

welcome to Eurobricks, why don't you also introduce yourself.

Note: we have some rules here to keep the fora neat and tidy, please also read those, but above all enjoy your stay in this great AFOL community!

[Redimus]

I have very little interest in the actual 9v trains (although one or two look nice if I can find em cheap enough), and only got into Lego trains recently. However I have decided to make my layout 9V compatible because battery packs and IR receivers are very hard to hide in British outline steam locos, and I refuse point blank to have em pulling around a coach to hide the power pack (I like to shunt as well as tail chase).

The track's not too expensive (although getting a lot of it is obviously not cheap either, best bet is to hunt around for bulk lots on ebay until ME models start producing their own track), and the motors are still relatively cheap (although I suspect they'll become rarer), so it's not a bad idea as long as you start early. I'd hate to have been collecting IR for years then descide I want to convert everything to 9v.

[cei]

I'm trying to do that actually, having just bitten the bullet and purchased a Metroliner 9V setup. However I'm deciding how exactly I'm going to deal with my RC/PF trains, which far outnumber the single 9V. One thought is to simply run a single 9V loop, with 9V switches that lead to my existing ABS track. The other is to entirely convert to 9V with the benefit of no longer having to hide battery boxes/IR components, but the downside of rather expensive track purchases.

Equally, I'm actually finding it tricky to find a guide on how to setup a 9V track in terms of maximum lengths etc.

[linaryfind]

good info,battery power will suit me at this point so will have a look and see what i can find.thanks

Edited June 27, 2014 by linaryfind

[Jorrith]

I'm trying to do that actually, having just bitten the bullet and purchased a Metroliner 9V setup. However I'm deciding how exactly I'm going to deal with my RC/PF trains, which far outnumber the single 9V. One thought is to simply run a single 9V loop, with 9V switches that lead to my existing ABS track. The other is to entirely convert to 9V with the benefit of no longer having to hide battery boxes/IR components, but the downside of rather expensive track purchases.

Equally, I'm actually finding it tricky to find a guide on how to setup a 9V track in terms of maximum lengths etc.

What i did at first was exactly that. Small inside loop of 9V rails with 9V points, and the rest RC/PF rails. Even though this worked great, it limits the available track for 9V trains so eventually i started to collect more and more 9V track till a point i had enough to sell the RC/PF track.

One thing i don't do is converting the RC/PF trains to 9V. They run fine on batteries, and the amount of usage these trains get does not justify a 9V motor or even rechargable batteries.

[cei]

Sounds like a reasonable idea, and it'll allow me to slowly expand the 9V track I own, with the arrival of ME's track surely to help things along. I'm not that overly interested in the 9V trains though, none of the designs apart from Metroliner, offer anything much different to what I have in PF/RC.

[legoman666]

Our club uses both PF and 9V components to make a hybrid system. Our tracks are energized to 24VDC using industrial power supplies I get from work and we use hollow 9V motors or custom metal wheels to pick up the power from the track. The 24V feeds a DC-DC converter that supplies a constant 10VDC to the IR receivers (which I am hoping to replace with bluetooth controllers). The great thing about the DC-DC converters is that they output a constant voltage no matter what. So the track voltage can sag significantly without issue and the trains take turns with minimal decrease in speed. And by using a 75W 24V power supply, we get away from the crappy 9V 400mA wall warts that Lego supplies. We can also run multiple trains on the same track. It's kind of like DCC.

Some of our trains have a battery system too that works in tandem with the power from the track. When track power is lost (say on ME Models wide radius plastic turns), the batteries provide power to the DC-DC converter instead. Quite a robust system, although initial investment in each locomotive is high.

Edited June 27, 2014 by legoman666

[toxicbananna]

Our club uses both PF and 9V components to make a hybrid system. Our tracks are energized to 24VDC using industrial power supplies I get from work and we use hollow 9V motors or custom metal wheels to pick up the power from the track. The 24V feeds a DC-DC converter that supplies a constant 10VDC to the IR receivers (which I am hoping to replace with bluetooth controllers). The great thing about the DC-DC converters is that they output a constant voltage no matter what. So the track voltage can sag significantly without issue and the trains take turns with minimal decrease in speed. And by using a 75W 24V power supply, we get away from the crappy 9V 400mA wall warts that Lego supplies. We can also run multiple trains on the same track. It's kind of like DCC.

Some of our trains have a battery system too that works in tandem with the power from the track. When track power is lost (say on ME Models wide radius plastic turns), the batteries provide power to the DC-DC converter instead. Quite a robust system, although initial investment in each locomotive is high.

how do you use dc-dc converter for on your track? multipoint connector?

[legoman666]

It's on the train itself.

[Redimus]

What i did at first was exactly that. Small inside loop of 9V rails with 9V points, and the rest RC/PF rails. Even though this worked great, it limits the available track for 9V trains so eventually i started to collect more and more 9V track till a point i had enough to sell the RC/PF track.

One thing i don't do is converting the RC/PF trains to 9V. They run fine on batteries, and the amount of usage these trains get does not justify a 9V motor or even rechargable batteries.

My current set up is one loop with a long passing loop and a small set of sidings coming off the inner passing loop. The initial 9v plan is to ensure the inner loop and the rest of the mainline are 9v track, including all points off it. When ME bring out their short 9v straits, the outer loop will also go full 9v, but unfortunately, until then, I have to rely on the plastic flexi track to make it fit in the available space and still be long enough for a full 6 car Horizon Express. Unless I can find one extra cheap set of points, the sidings will remain plastic, as the IR set up seems to be a little more responsive than the 9v set up (but will probably be 9v too eventually).

As for trains, all city releases I buy (currently only got the yellow freight train) will remain IR. My custom steam loco will go 9v, because I'm not happy with the tender as is, and any other custom steam or small diesel will go 9v too. The only real quandry I have right now is the full HE. One power unit is too weak for a full train. I have several options, including 2x 9v, 2x completely independent IR locos (probably won't do that) 2x IR motors (one on each loco) powered by either one or two battery packs but controlled by only one IR receiver (will require a fair bit of wiring either way).

On a not completely unrelated side note, how much of a difference to grip do the old train weights make on the two types of 9v train motor?

[cei]

For HE, I have two PF motors running on the front engine, one of which has had its polarity reversed so it runs 'backwards'. Plenty of power for pulling 8 units in total, and because the two motors are running off the same IR input there's no problem with signals not being received by both at the same time. The only downside is the draw on the battery, but I have put my sole rechargeable in that unit.

[Redimus]

How did you over come the fact the rear bogie is shorter than the front bogie?

[cei]

Err, no it isn't? The front unit is just the motor unit with the side skirts, as standard on the train. The rear is the reversed polarity motor, side skirts and the magnet assembly on the rear (which, in fact, makes it longer than the front).

http://www.ibrickcity.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Lego-Creator-Horizon-express-10233-ibrickcity-19.jpg

See? Same size except the magnet.

[Redimus]

Hmm... I may have suffered a brainfart, I'd convinced myself the back bogie was shorter... lol

In which case, I'll just double up the power on the front loco until I can lay my hands on some extra wires (would still rather have power at both ends for better dual direction driving).

[ronenson]

Hmm... I may have suffered a brainfart, I'd convinced myself the back bogie was shorter... lol

In which case, I'll just double up the power on the front loco until I can lay my hands on some extra wires (would still rather have power at both ends for better dual direction driving).

Actually, the back bogie is shorter. Its 9 studs long, where the motor is 10 studs long. It doesn't matter for powering, it still fits. The magnet simply is placed slightly to the back if you double-power it. I've got mine equipped with 2 motor in 1 loco as well.

[Redimus]

Actually, the back bogie is shorter. Its 9 studs long, where the motor is 10 studs long. It doesn't matter for powering, it still fits. The magnet simply is placed slightly to the back if you double-power it. I've got mine equipped with 2 motor in 1 loco as well.

On inspection later that night I came to the same conclusion. For that reason alone, I chose not to do the double powered front loco option, because having the front and back locos different distances away from the coaches would annoy the crap out of me, as would having the distance between corridors further than it need be. Turns out I have some stupidly long old Technic wires that will easily stretch the length of the train, so I am trailing two from the front to the back (one for motive power, one for lights so I can maintain the red for go, blue for lights set up) and using short modern cables to act as connecting points between the locos and the coaches and to convert from the old conducting stud system to the new whatever that is system (why not keep the old conducting stud system? It was so much simpler).

[Jorrith]

The older system was much simpler, but only had one channel (just power) running trough the cable. The new system has 2, and power:

Gives more options, and besides, atleast the new cables are backward compatible. I think lego did make this change due to the PWM signal that is sent to the motors.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Jorrith

[Redimus]

Hmm, that means I may not be able to use my old epicly long technic cable, at least for the 2nd motor.