New grays actually closer to neutral gray than the old ones?

[Xfing]

I've gotten to observe the changes made to the gray color in detail, and my impression is:

- Previously, I only had experience with OldGray and OldDkGray, so they seemed fine for what they were. OldGray seemed like perfectly neutral gray. But comparing it to BluishGray it seems that it's not in fact that the new color is bluish, but the old one is actually warm. Next to BluishGray

blocks, the older ones look just that - old, almost rotten, as though aging had discolored them. Weird.

- Same with the dark grays, only here the difference is even more apparent. But in this case I'd say that the old color was too warm to be neutral while the new one is too cold to be neutral, so they both miss the middle ground.

What are your impressions? I know this topic's probably been talked to death by now, but it's still something I like discussing.

[JGW3000]

I agree - having been into digital imaging, and very fussy with color balance, the old grey parts are clearly greenish-tinted, "sick" or "rotten" looking. The new "stone-grey" colored parts are much more neutral in color balance, and are generally more pleasing.

[jodawill]

It greatly annoys me that the difference exists because I have pretty much an equal number of each shade, but I have to say that the new ones are definitely much better than the old ones. But a lot of that has to do with aging, I think. I bought a new in box set (Rocky Reef) a year ago and the grays seemed to be a lot better than my other old grays. But the new ones are still better.

The new brown, on the other hand, is stupid. It doesn't look bad in its own right, but there was nothing wrong with the old brown and the new brown is NEVER consistent. If you put together a big wall of 1x2 reddish brown bricks, it just looks like a pile of random colors. It looks like crap.

[naf]

Next to BluishGray

blocks, the older ones look just that - old, almost rotten, as though aging had discolored them. Weird.

I agree - having been into digital imaging, and very fussy with color balance, the old grey parts are clearly greenish-tinted, "sick" or "rotten" looking. The new "stone-grey" colored parts are much more neutral in color balance, and are generally more pleasing.

This is probably because the older bricks eventually yellowed, which could cause it to look like that. This even happens to brand new bricks still in the original box. I bet they didn't look as "sickly" back when they were brand new.

It greatly annoys me that the difference exists because I have pretty much an equal number of each shade, but I have to say that the new ones are definitely much better than the old ones. But a lot of that has to do with aging, I think. I bought a new in box set (Rocky Reef) a year ago and the grays seemed to be a lot better than my other old grays. But the new ones are still better.

The new brown, on the other hand, is stupid. It doesn't look bad in its own right, but there was nothing wrong with the old brown and the new brown is NEVER consistent. If you put together a big wall of 1x2 reddish brown bricks, it just looks like a pile of random colors. It looks like crap.

I agree, there is no consistnecy in the reddish brown. I bought a bunch off of the pick a brick wall, and while I was stacking the 1x2 bricks there were 2-3 difference shades of reddish brown. I agree with Lego changing greys to bluish grey, they just look better. While I like reddish brown, I really didn't think they needed to change it. Old brown looked fine to me.

[Blondie-Wan]

This is probably because the older bricks eventually yellowed, which could cause it to look like that. This even happens to brand new bricks still in the original box. I bet they didn't look as "sickly" back when they were brand new.

That might be part of it, but I think they still don't look that way to most eyes, unless you put the old and new grays right next to each other. Similarly, even back in 2003 when the new gray was introduced, it made the old gray look that way by comparison, even if the old gray was from a still-new set released just before the new grays came out.

[Hrw-Amen]

I would say that old dark grey is definately 'sickly' looking compared to dark blueish grey. I have quite a few of the old ones and whilst I prefer the new it does not mean there are no places for the old ones to be used.

With normal grey and light blueish grey, I have to say unless it is very good daylight I find it very hard to tell the difference. The thing I look for is that the old one look more Matt as opposed to the new ones which appear more varnished, but essentially the same colour.

Now the reddish brown, well I like it a lot, but it does have so many variations. In away that is not a bad thing as it is a natural 'woodish' colour that lost of use will use for trees or things made of trees, like log cabins or in horses or whatever, but a little variation in that can be a good thing. I often find that the brown and reddish brown are really hard to tell apart simply becuase the range of colours in reddish brown make them all seem like one that is just a different batch and slighly browner than redder if that makes any sence?

I have to admit that I also find the blues to be hard. Old blue is blue and that is fine although again you do get quite a few variations within it. But the main ones that I find hard are the medium blue (Which I like and use a lot.) and the Maresk blue. The main way I find to tell them apart is 'cost' in Bricklink! But no, seriously again it is like the Maresk is simply the unvarnished version of Medium blue. Another that I find hard to tell apart especially in photos or over a little difference is all these turquoise and dark Azure, Medium Azure and all that lot, They all pretty much look the same from a distance, it is only when you hold the bricks right up against each other that you can tell they are different.

[Xfing]

Well, the old grays definitely have their charm. A lot of it in fact, especially in fantasy settings such as Castle. Actually they fit it much more than the new grays, I'd say.

But I've grown very fond of the new grays, which I didn't expect would happen. I had thought I'd stand by the old colors stalwartly, while in fact it took only buying 3 newer sets to grow enamored with the new grays. They're for all intents and purposes simply better.

I would like to expand my collection of Old Gray and Old Dark Gray pieces, though. I think buying the Aquazone set "Stingray Stormer" will help me with that somewhat.

[naf]

I like new gray when building futuristic models, and I prefer old gray when building castles. As funny as it sounds, I think old gray bricks that have yellowed look good for castles, as it makes the bricks look a little weathered.

[antp]

But the main ones that I find hard are the medium blue

Even if they are close, there is a quite different hue there to me.

But I can understand why they may seem similar: blue/green shades is where most of the people have problems for noticing color differences.

For the greys, using daylight it is not too hard to see the difference when the parts are a little old as they tend to be more yellowish as said above. But I have a few like-new parts from just before the color change, these are harder to classify: I have to compare them to other ones to be sure to which category of grey they belong.

As also said above daylight light is much easier for that.

Hence why on the desk on which I have all my Lego parts I have a lamp with a Philips "daylight" bulb rather than a common yellowish lamp. It makes color sorting so easier.

And to come back to the original topic: I also find that the new gley looks probably more "neutral", being "colder" than the other one.

Edited March 25, 2014 by antp

[1974]

I'm quite the opposite

Bluish looks cheap, cold and clonish (just take a look at the clones, you'll see) - I'll have nothing of that in my MOCs!

Old grey actually blends with the natural 'warmness' of the other colours. Old grey/dark grey actually have the same colour balance as the rest of TLGs normal colours

I build mostly Classic Castle and Space and that shiny cold look don't work. At all .. imho, that is

[rob-cubed]

I'm a graphic designer, so am particularly sensitive to color. The newer bley color is indeed slightly bluish-gray but it's a little closer to pure neutral than the old light gray. Same with dark-bley / dark gray. Both of the older colors are warm grays on the yellow side (vs red) which gives them their greenish tint.

Personally I like the new gray, it's more compatible with other colors, but I'm happy we have more than one shade to play with. Mixing them looks particularly good on castle walls and roofs.

[1974]

But the other colours are not neutral, they're warm too! I read a great post on lugnet years ago about that subject (comments from a graphic designer as well)

I'll see if I can dig it up ...

[IvanStorm]

Graphic designer here as well. I love the new grays - they are pretty close to neutral and the old ones really look tainted and sickly in comparison. I don't like using them even for old walls.

[BrickG]

The old yellowish greys were better for one thing IMO. The Millenium Falcon. Blue-Grey Falcon is kind of odd.

[TheOrcKing]

I find that the old grays look rather dirty and somewhat brown in comparison with the new grays. Admittedly, new gray looks great for just about everything from City to Space but seems a tad off when used for Castle. I mean, it still works but new gray can make any Castle design look as if it was just built yesterday instead of the way how old gray could made it look as though the fortress has seen better days being around for a while. Course then again if you trying to go for that brand new look or appearance of an aristocratic castle then new gray is where it is at!

[AndyC]

Wasn't that the whole justification for introducing the new greys in the first place? That in order to make the wider range of clouds more useful, they had opted to us more neutral greys and browns than in the past?

[Xfing]

I remember that there was a website that gave RGB values for all the colors. If the scale was from 0 to 255, A perfect, 50% gray would be around 127/127/127, amirite?

OldGrey is 161 165 162

while Bley is

163 162 164

DarkOldGrey is

109 110 108

while Dark Bley is 99 95 97

Funny how the differences seem really negligible, yet the outcome is distinguishable. From the numbers, though, one can see that the newer light grays are indeed closer to perfect neutrality than the old ones, while with the dark grays the situation is opposite. Kinda my sentiments too.

EDIT: There's no use arguing, when there is a simple test we can perform.

I have put together the grays with the old ones on the left and the new ones on the right, with perfectly neutral grays in the middle for comparison. It would seem that indeed, "Bley" is an almost perfect neutral gray, with only one variable slightly shifted.

On the other hand, while Old Dark Gray was almost perfectly neutral as well, Dark Bley definitely leans towards purple (assuming that, since Red + Blue give Purple, and these colors are dominant over Green here). So, Old Gray and Dark Bley are the ones that are leaning. In case of Bley, it can be definitely seen that Lego was going towards a perfect gray. I can't say i have such an impression from Dark Bley, though.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Xfing

[rob-cubed]

Xfing, this is a really interesting exercise, thanks for sharing! Unfortunately, it's not *quite* as scientific as it sounds. Start with a subtractive color like dyed ABS plastic, and we can theoretically obtain an exact match using additive color. But the problem is accurately reproducing that RGB color build. There is no color display consistency between monitors or even operating systems (PC colors are darker than Mac, and LCDs trend bluer than CRTs). In other words, the RGB build that is an exact match for old gray on my monitor will probably not look like an exact match on yours.

That said, the slight variations shown by your chart seem pretty spot-on. Both old grays are a little on the greenish side, new bley is pretty close to neutral on the bluish side and new dark bley is just a tiny bit on the reddish side by comparison.

I have often wondered what color control system LEGO uses to standardize their output. I've noticed a fair amount of variation in sand green and reddish brown, for example, while other colors tend to be very consistent. It's not an easy task to get consistent color, especially when dealing with multiple production facilities.

[antp]

Displays use RGB colors but real-life objects (printing, painting, etc.) are rather expressed using CMYK colors

http://en.wikipedia....th_RGB_displays

So the RGB values will always be an approximation, and as said above they depend on the monitor.

Recent versions of Windows can handle color correction and screen calibration, like MacOS does since longer time, to try to make your screen's colors as close as possible to the "real" ones. If the monitor does not come with a color profile from the manufacturer it can be configured manually (Control Panel -> Color Management).

I've noticed a fair amount of variation in sand green and reddish brown, for example, while other colors tend to be very consistent. It's not an easy task to get consistent color, especially when dealing with multiple production facilities.

They're not so consistent, color variations can be observed in many colors. Yellow for example isn't so consistent since a few years despite being an old classic color.

One of those that caused the most problems to Lego seems to be dark purple a few years ago (with the Harry Potter bus).

Edited April 8, 2014 by antp

[Xfing]

Peeron actually also gives CMYK values for all those colors as well. I could redo the experiment using CMYK values. But I'd need a minute or three at home for that. Can't do it with MS Paint here at work, haha

[rob-cubed]

Peeron actually also gives CMYK values for all those colors as well.

Nifty, I need to spend more time poking around on Peeron:

http://www.peeron.com/cgi-bin/invcgis/colorguide.cgi

http://www.peeron.com/inv/colors

The Pantone colors listed are far more valuable as a standard, since these are custom-mixed inks much like the dye used to color LEGO. It's about the only way to get consistent color in the print world. Even CMYK values won't reproduce the same depending on substrate, ink density, and a host of other variables. Their CMYK builds they listed are also very different than Pantone's own lookup values. That's not necessarily a bad thing... but it just illustrates how difficult trying to match color can be.