How about more 'Realistic' Technic Models?

[Blakbird]

Right now it's all a blob, where you can't remove any part without dissasembilng half of the model.

you forgot Nat Kuipers... it's concept car is for me one of the best build supercar and cause of its outstanding modularity it demonstrates kids how nowadays cars are manufactured... just see the marriage of chassis, gearbox and motor (this is realism pure), but this only BTW... ;-) - of course the supercars of crownkiller and some others are also great and outstanding

Right. Although the NK supercar has the same type of double wishbone suspension as other models, the modular construction is actually pretty similar to how a real car is assembled.

[nicjasno]

allanp: i'm fully onboard with the lambo idea. In white.

[aol000xw]

Well their previous aproaches to Lambo where less than stellar even for a creator series.

[allanp]

That's cos they haven't took my approach

[Meatman]

Nice but Nothing really new... Gearbox is simple a better Design, but remember the Way better gear switching mechanism of the 8880 cause of its unique gearstick... And what the hell is remarkable about a reverse gear???

Suspension of 8880 is too stiff right, but the 8448 is too weak.. But anyway: nothing New to the table

Modular Build is just another Design principle nothing more... Well, to be honest, a very good design principle... ;-)

Summary: i like the 8448 as a set and as a build but it brings nothing really New to the table....

I don't know how you can write off the addition of a reverse gear so easily(not to mention the addition of the 5th gear) The driving ring extension and bevel gears that were introduced in this set went on to revolutionize the way that people would build transmissions and gearboxes for the next 14+ years.

And like someone said on the previous page, when you look at the 8448 and compare it to the 8880 from a visual standpoint, it's not even close. It is like comparing a silk slipper to an old work boot. I think that visual appearance is just as important as the number of functions when talking about realism.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Meatman

[Kumbbl]

I don't know how you can write off the addition of a reverse gear so easily(not to mention the addition of the 5th gear) The driving ring extension and bevel gears that were introduced in this set went on to revolutionize the way that people would build transmissions and gearboxes for the next 14+ years.

do not misunderstand me: you are right but again i would say: nothing really new to the table - overall this is still the same principle - building a gearbox with one-size clutch-gears and combining other gears to get the needed rations - well, the 8448 gearbox is more compact and to reach this for 6 gears you need the driving ring-extension - that's it... but where is the revolution, in contrary: this is far away from being revolutionary... revolutinary was 8880-gearbox and introducing switching gears with clutches and driving rings - this is something really new to the table... but the 8448 stuff is simply a good improvement of already existing design, not less but surely not more... (IMHO)

and if i must choose between 8448 and 8880-gearbox-style: i would always choose the 8880 4-speed-gearbox (maybe optimized in compactness), because gear-switching is way way way better and more realistic and 4 speed are enough for a toy - 5+1 speed adds nothing new to the table... agein: IMHO

And like someone said on the previous page, when you look at the 8448 and compare it to the 8880 from a visual standpoint, it's not even close. It is like comparing a silk slipper to an old work boot. I think that visual appearance is just as important as the number of functions when talking about realism.

yes, the 8448 looks better (though for my eyes the 8880 looks very good and unique) and more realistic like a real car.. but i disagree for the importance of the visual appearance... if this is important or not is a) a very personal decision and b) depends on the goals of TLG for the technic line and/or supercars: For me the sentence is still true: Form follow functions...

[nicjasno]

The problem with the 8448 was also, that the chassis was the weakest of all supercars to date. It was like chewing gum, torsionally bending. That's why the suspension needed to be so soft.

I have no idea how the 8070 compares to that, or the ferrari modesl, because i totally lost interest in them, since the same suspension was recycled over and over and over... Maybe someone who bought them can comment.

[jorgeopesi]

Lego Ferrari cars had the perfect type suspension to build MODs, they hadn´t got it . The more complex suspension you want to build the bigger scale you have to choose in my opinion.

[nicjasno]

Not necessarily. The limiting factor with suspension in lego are in my opinion the wheels, and the lack of space inside the rims.

[Sheepo]

Not necessarily. The limiting factor with suspension in lego are in my opinion the wheels, and the lack of space inside the rims.

Completely agree!!

This is the main reason why I can't make more complex suspensionsin my cars keeping the size of the car.

To make it better I used the 8448 wheels in my 911, but the price of that wheels and the poor quantity available in BL make this wheels hard to use ;(

Even a ~86-88mm of diameter wheels can be a great size.

This is a great discussion with very interesting point of views. I will be pending.

[1974]

Sure, technic has play value I don't deny that. I also think play value is very important. But let me ask you this, do you spend more time building technic or playing with it after it's built? For me building time outweighs playing time about 10 to 1. I just think play value is not it's strongest attribute and increased authenticity almost always leads to increased play value. The authentic functions of the unimog were fun to play with, the non authentic steering was not fun to play with. There are exceptions to every rule but that's mostly how it seems to me. Remember, from the horses mouth the 3 main goals of technic is authenticity, complexity and challenging building, which I think is as it should be. I would rather they pursue those three main goal before playability despite what playability technic has and because those three goals will automatically generate lots of playability anyway among other good things as well.

It's not important what _I_ do with Technic, nor any other AFOLs. It's LEGO, it's a toy, it's made for children/teenagers, not adults. And this is straight from the horses mouth as well

Also, the only authentic function in the Unimog is the suspension

[nicjasno]

The problem is, that in the unimog not even the suspension is really authentic. And it's very poorly executed.

[jorgeopesi]

Come on nicjasmo and Sheepo I say bigger scale so bigger wheels... ok wheels like 8448 wheels... but if you can do a complex suspension with a empy small wheel you are my heros, but don´t try please...

[nicjasno]

For complex suspension setups wheels don't need to be any bigger than the ones on the new crane. They need to have bigger rims, that are "deep", so you have room inside for balljoints and stuff like that. Right now most of the suspensions are bad, because everything needs to be outside the rim, due to lack of space.

[Paul Boratko]

For complex suspension setups wheels don't need to be any bigger than the ones on the new crane. They need to have bigger rims, that are "deep", so you have room inside for balljoints and stuff like that. Right now most of the suspensions are bad, because everything needs to be outside the rim, due to lack of space.

Completely agree, the pivot point is too far back instead of inside of the wheel like it should be...

yes, the 8448 looks better (though for my eyes the 8880 looks very good and unique) and more realistic like a real car.. but i disagree for the importance of the visual appearance... if this is important or not is a) a very personal decision and b) depends on the goals of TLG for the technic line and/or supercars: For me the sentence is still true: Form follow functions...

I also think that what you see overall in the final project is just as important as the inner workings and this is why: Many times people build really great concepts or have great new ideas for either gearboxes or some other new mechaniam and they can't wait to post pictures and they end up rushing to slap together a body style in a few days that doesn't equal the great inner workings and the model goes on unnoticed because of the lack of eye appeal.... Many times you can already tell how good a model is going to be is by seeing interesting techniques used to build the body... I normally spend about just as much time designing the outside of one of my models as I do the inside...

allanp: i'm fully onboard with the lambo idea. In white.

I am still kind of shocked that Lego never even made a Lamborghini in the racers series similar to the 8145/8653 size and style... What a waste of a license...

[nicjasno]

I fully agree.

A model also does need to look good, to get the inner workings to shine. It's a complete package.

[Choops]

What 8448 did introduce was a lego based model that they encouraged the builder to make it their own. The new panels, flex tubing, and instruction ideas were designed for the builder to create their own body for the chassis. You could even place the motor in the front or back.

Steve

[DrJB]

Completely agree, the pivot point is too far back instead of inside of the wheel like it should be...

I would love the ability to mimic a multi-link suspension (MLS) as in some Audi vehicles. An MLS enables one to implement a negative 'scrub radius'. Such feature gives cars better handling. Though, for one to truly see the effect, the gaps in the joints need to be tighter than they are today.

Some other features of realistic suspensions are: Caster angle, Ackerman, different upper/lower control arms ...

Edited August 30, 2013 by DrJB

[nicjasno]

All of this is easily achievable if we get better wheels.

[Paul Boratko]

Here is a prime example of a model that is so good that the beauty of it almost overshines what is going on inside...

[Lipko]

All of this is easily achievable if we get better wheels.

Well, I think we would need pushrods is different sizes too, or a small ball-socket piece to build custom pushrods, also something that fans have been hoping for ages.

[DrJB]

Here is a prime example of a model that is so good that the beauty of it almost overshines what is going on inside...

That is a gorgeous piece Paul. The car is about 32 studs wide (same as a baseplate). Are the wheels/tires lego or 3rd party?

[nicjasno]

The challenger certanly looked better than it was. And it was too big and too heavy. I don't want to make such a big model again.

The mustang wheels are the same size as the unimog wheels, they just have a much bigger and deeper rim, that is perfect for fitting suspensions inside.

As for the pushrods... every liftarm can be made into a pushrod. We don't need specialised pieces for that.

[aol000xw]

In the end the problem is stagnation of Lego supercar design. 8880/8448 each has its own strengths, but discussing them is moot point, as both are 20th century designs of more than a decade ago.

Studless is a big improvement and the new panels help a lot in design but since 1999 I can't find any real improvement in suspenssion, steering, gearboxes or modularity.

The current Lego fad is multiplexing motors. A cost effective way of implementing automated functionality with PF while adding aparent complexity, And having in mind the real market target for Lego it makes sense.

But take 42009 as an example, compare with 8421. Seriously, adding wheels or making more of them to steer isn't that amazing. An electrovalve for pneumatics IS an improvement, replacing pneumatics with LA isn't. Yeah there are other improvements,.but like 8880 and 8448 with every step forward there is one step backwards.

When can't expect Lego is going to completely change this baheviour as it does not make sense from a bussiness perspective, however as SW UCS sets, there is a smaller market for highly complex well designed Technic models. I hope that Lego realizes that. They don't need one of those every 6 months, but there is an unexploited market.

For me 42009 is nice, but I am not sure is something I want to pay 200€ for. I don't think adding a specialized part every year, really adding new mechanical possibilities is asking too much. There is a long list of designs in these forums...

[Hrafn]

Well, I think we would need pushrods is different sizes too, or a small ball-socket piece to build custom pushrods, also something that fans have been hoping for ages.

For the ball and socket, we have to wait until these come out in the spring of next year:

http://www.lego.com/mixels/