Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[Scubacarrot]

Oh I have no problem with the build or the item at all.

And for legal reasons I can also not say I have a problem with the fields, but I think you know how my true colours and feelings and stuff about the Fields by now.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

If anything, go with number 1. Though I do think we should fix the weapon first.

[CMP]

But perhaps the weapon is the biggest problem here. And since it's my creation, I feel responsibility to change it. Sorry, CMP.

I knew I'd be running the risk of breaking things with this combination anyway. That's fine, Warden's Shield is already pretty much the weakest of any class, it doesn't need a nerf. Like I said, I prefer option 1 if it needs a change.

Very observant of you. The weapon isn't overpowered, my build is.

It's the same deal here. Nobody had a problem with the Pheles Rod when I was a Witch with like 4 defense and around 50 max health, since one bad round would mean death. Powerful builds are what make the weapons overpowered, and that's generally when they get nerfed.

[CMP]

Yeah, I think the Sword of Ancestral Hatred needs a nerf now. It just gained like 10 WP over a single battle.

[Brickdoctor]

What if the Sword of Ancestral Hatred scales the same way Level does? So at WP: 32, the next kill would make it WP: 32.25.

[Kintobor]

What if the Sword of Ancestral Hatred scales the same way Level does? So at WP: 32, the next kill would make it WP: 32.25.

So long as I don't have to calculate for said .25.

No, it's good. I like it.

[CMP]

What if the Sword of Ancestral Hatred scales the same way Level does? So at WP: 32, the next kill would make it WP: 32.25.

That'd make sense, but could be confusing if the decimals are actually calculated in the WP. Maybe just keep track of the kills, like (WP: 39 (1/4 kills)) and on the fourth, WP increase?

So long as I don't have to calculate for said .25.

See?

[Brickdoctor]

You already don't calculate the decimal in the Level; I don't see how it would be that much more confusing to know not to calculate the decimal in WP.

[Flipz]

Discussions of notation aside, I think that's the best method of dealing with the SoAH.

That said:

Very observant of you. The weapon isn't overpowered, my build is. The Fields do make that quite a bit more apparent since we (the hosts) don't have any control over the enemy stats. We can't slap a *Immune to Instakill* or *Penetrates SP* onto enemies. It's much harder to use my strategy in a real quest, and the fact that the build is broken is less amplified.

This quote basically sums up everything that is wrong with the Fields. Let's face it: if we hijacked the World of Warcraft servers and plonked down Heroica into that digital realm and userbase, with Quests run by automated AIs programmed to learn from the previous actions of our existing QMs, it would be completely shattered beyond repair in a matter of hours (IF we were lucky). Heroica only works because we have live humans who can tweak stuff on the fly to make things more fun, on a case-by-case basis. No offense to the Unlimited Quest QMs, but the underlying system of the Fields basically turns you into AIs; in "real" Quests, breaking strategies can be cleverly counteracted (which is half the fun of building one in the first place: seeing how the QM will counter your move), whereas in the Fields, you're at the mercy of the random number gods, because the only available strategy for QMs is brute force via Free Hits.

[CMP]

This quote basically sums up everything that is wrong with the Fields. Let's face it: if we hijacked the World of Warcraft servers and plonked down Heroica into that digital realm and userbase, with Quests run by automated AIs programmed to learn from the previous actions of our existing QMs, it would be completely shattered beyond repair in a matter of hours (IF we were lucky). Heroica only works because we have live humans who can tweak stuff on the fly to make things more fun, on a case-by-case basis. No offense to the Unlimited Quest QMs, but the underlying system of the Fields basically turns you into AIs; in "real" Quests, breaking strategies can be cleverly counteracted (which is half the fun of building one in the first place: seeing how the QM will counter your move), whereas in the Fields, you're at the mercy of the random number gods, because the only available strategy for QMs is brute force via Free Hits.

If anything, it's the game-breaking players who are the AIs.

Just like they're usually portrayed, an AI's intelligence grows exponentially over time as it grows aware of, well, anything, eventually causing some sort of catastrophic disaster or massive war. The closest we're going to get to that is battle mechanics. As heroes and their players get stronger, more experience, and obtain more and increasingly unique items, the capability for them to use them to their full potential (I hesitate to say abuse) grows drastically. Eventually they reach a point where we can't defeat them with conventional battles, and we're forced to adapt. Passive specials, ridiculously complex regular specials, new battle mechanics, etc. The Unlimited Quest is just unable to adjust since we've got our enemies in a list to draw from. They're all set, they're all basically 'regular' enemies. We're just at the point where we can't both adhere to that and pose a threat to the stronger players anymore.

There's probably some fancy scientific hypothetical name for this out there somewhere. I'll call it the 'I, Robot Effect'.

I'd rather delay/slow this exponential increase in the power of heroes than have every QM, now and in the future, have to be constantly adjusting to the power fluctuations, but I don't see any way to do that other than what we do now; nerf problematic classes and items, and otherwise just deal with it. There's just no way to account for what the players will come up with next to push the game to its breaking point.

In any case, it might be most evident in the Fields, but the problem doesn't originate there.

[Flipz]

Of course it doesn't originate there--but as you said, that's a "problem" with Heroica, not the Fields. The problem with the Fields IS that it can't adjust.

[CMP]

I don't like that adjusting in the first place, whether on my Quests or in the Fields. We can't hand-craft every battle.

[JimBee]

It's the same deal here. Nobody had a problem with the Pheles Rod when I was a Witch with like 4 defense and around 50 max health, since one bad round would mean death. Powerful builds are what make the weapons overpowered, and that's generally when they get nerfed.

That's exactly what I was saying - in your case, too, it's just a really powerful build; no single item makes it broken.

Discussions of notation aside, I think that's the best method of dealing with the SoAH.

I wouldn't at all be opposed to this.

No offense to the Unlimited Quest QMs, but the underlying system of the Fields basically turns you into AIs; in "real" Quests, breaking strategies can be cleverly counteracted (which is half the fun of building one in the first place: seeing how the QM will counter your move), whereas in the Fields, you're at the mercy of the random number gods, because the only available strategy for QMs is brute force via Free Hits.

If anything, it's the game-breaking players who are the AIs.

<You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.>

In all seriousness, though, I am well aware that things are left completely to the dice when it comes to the Fields. I've come to the conclusion that it's an easy way to gain XP and a bit of loot, and nothing more. It will never give anyone the true RPG experience, which is why I think it's fair to allow it to go on. If people want to spend time getting XP rather than roleplay or participate in a story at any given time, then that's perfectly okay.

[Sandy]

I've decided to hold off making any changes to the Aura-effect, and instead I'm negotiating a change into the Pheles Rod with CMP. I hope it will fix the issue for now...

Yeah, I think the Sword of Ancestral Hatred needs a nerf now. It just gained like 10 WP over a single battle.

Yikes!

Would you be alright with capping the weapon's WP to 50, JimButcher?

Another solution would be to limit the WP increase to 1 per battle. Something needs to be done, or you'll end up with a WP:9999 weapon soon...

[Flare]

What do other QMs think about adding another sort of commodity into the game, so that some items are purchasable only with this other commodity... (like Dark Platinum or something like that) this is just an idea for a new type of drop

[CMP]

What do other QMs think about adding another sort of commodity into the game, so that some items are purchasable only with this other commodity... (like Dark Platinum or something like that) this is just an idea for a new type of drop

It would kill Rogues if QM shops got reliant on it and it's kind of unnecessary in my opinion.

[Sandy]

What do other QMs think about adding another sort of commodity into the game, so that some items are purchasable only with this other commodity... (like Dark Platinum or something like that) this is just an idea for a new type of drop

Do you mean like the Skeleton Decoys that can only be bought if you have enough bones?

[Flare]

Do you mean like the Skeleton Decoys that can only be bought if you have enough bones?

Yes, but of course bones do not make sense in normal purchases.

It would kill Rogues if QM shops got reliant on it and it's kind of unnecessary in my opinion.

My intention wasn't to make it replace gold or something, but it is something else to even out the economy a little bit, and to add something else interesting to drops instead of making more and more complicated and powerful loot.

[Kintobor]

My intention wasn't to make it replace gold or something, but it is something else to even out the economy a little bit, and to add something else interesting to drops instead of making more and more complicated and powerful loot.

My opinion, make more bombs. They rarely ever get bought, or dropped, due to how weak their set out to be.. Bombs don't need crazy ridiculous damage output to be appealing. The Party Bomb for example deals 20 damage and has a 1/3 chance to stun opponents. The Pumpkin Bombs are crazy awesome! That and loot that has monetary value, but not coins. Murky Pearls, Gold Bars, etc.

[Pandora]

My intention wasn't to make it replace gold or something, but it is something else to even out the economy a little bit, and to add something else interesting to drops instead of making more and more complicated and powerful loot.

I think the way of interesting consumables is probably the way to go. Zepher has created a wide array of such items, as has Sandy and others too (I can even lay claim to a couple myself from past Grogmas gifts), and these are fun things to have because they're relatively rare and still useful. Once they're used, though, they're gone, making their acquisition desirable once more.

[Flare]

I think the way of interesting consumables is probably the way to go. Zepher has created a wide array of such items, as has Sandy and others too (I can even lay claim to a couple myself from past Grogmas gifts), and these are fun things to have because they're relatively rare and still useful. Once they're used, though, they're gone, making their acquisition desirable once more.

Alright. Perhaps you are correct then, however I still think my idea (OK it was Pyrovisionary's, actually, that I stole) is interesting

[Brickdoctor]

Yikes!

Would you be alright with capping the weapon's WP to 50, JimButcher?

Another solution would be to limit the WP increase to 1 per battle. Something needs to be done, or you'll end up with a WP:9999 weapon soon...

A few posts back, I also suggested having the WP scale the same way Level does, so the next kill would push it from WP: 32 to WP: 32.25. JimB said he'd be fine with that, if you want to do that.

[Palathadric]

What if the Sword of Ancestral Hatred scales the same way Level does? So at WP: 32, the next kill would make it WP: 32.25.

Would you be alright with capping the weapon's WP to 50, JimButcher?

Another solution would be to limit the WP increase to 1 per battle. Something needs to be done, or you'll end up with a WP:9999 weapon soon...

I think BD's way is quite good, really. I suppose we will see how quickly it rises in a normal quest, but I think with BD's plan it will rise quickly enough to still be worthwhile, but not too quickly to render it insanely overpowered. It may still be a bit overpowered, but I think we could let Hybros run with it for a quest or two with BD's system in place. If it still rises too quickly, then we can think about putting a cap, although I think WP: 50, may be a bit low. I would prefer to not put a cap though.

[Sandy]

A few posts back, I also suggested having the WP scale the same way Level does, so the next kill would push it from WP: 32 to WP: 32.25. JimB said he'd be fine with that, if you want to do that.

I can go with that, too. JimBee?

[JimBee]

I've decided to hold off making any changes to the Aura-effect, and instead I'm negotiating a change into the Pheles Rod with CMP. I hope it will fix the issue for now...

Yikes!

Would you be alright with capping the weapon's WP to 50, JimButcher?

Another solution would be to limit the WP increase to 1 per battle. Something needs to be done, or you'll end up with a WP:9999 weapon soon...

I can go with that, too. JimBee?

Any of those would be fine with me. Since Brickdoctor's idea seems to be the most popular, we can go with that.