Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[Chromeknight]

Another option besides time limits on consumables is time limits on battles themselves.

Either local, flee the sunrise!: passive special - if the battle is not ended in ten rounds, this monster flees.

Or

you can't ignore me!: passive special - if there is around where the monster is not attacked directly, this monster flees.

Or perhaps a global solution within a quest.

QM note This quest will take exactly six weeks. It will end after 42 days even if in the middle of battle. Ending mid battle will fail the battle, but may not entail failing the quest. I will commit to minimum 24hour updates and wil notify you beforehand if I wil miss one. Missed QM updates will add to the quest length.

[CMP]

Or perhaps a global solution within a quest.

QM note This quest will take exactly six weeks. It will end after 42 days even if in the middle of battle. Ending mid battle will fail the battle, but may not entail failing the quest. I will commit to minimum 24hour updates and wil notify you beforehand if I wil miss one. Missed QM updates will add to the quest length.

That shouldn't become commonplace. But a real time-limited Quest sounds interesting as hell.

[JimBee]

Or perhaps a global solution within a quest.

QM note This quest will take exactly six weeks. It will end after 42 days even if in the middle of battle. Ending mid battle will fail the battle, but may not entail failing the quest. I will commit to minimum 24hour updates and wil notify you beforehand if I wil miss one. Missed QM updates will add to the quest length.

I like the first two ideas, but this, sorry but no. I didn't put all that work into a quest to have it end incomplete.

[Flipz]

It's impossible to plan and balance enemies taking into account every possible effect that the player might have. In Quest#75 it was easier since I gave the party all effects from the get-go, knowing that they were at their absolute maximum power already. In normal circumstances stacking all the effects onto a hero doesn't just give them an edge to the battle, it allows an unrelented massacre. If the effects only worked for a limited time, the battle would be less one-sided and more susceptible to dramatic changes - making them that much more challenging.

But perhaps I need to think of another way to fix the loophole.

You're right, it's impossible--and that's as it should be. What you're expressing is the aftermath of the old Gold-earning strategy--an Effect that won't expire until the excess Gold and consumables already in the market are worn down. The problem with a unilateral system is that it penalizes players who don't have as much just as much (or more than) those who are the source of the difficulty. We don't have to work on a wide scale--we can tweak individual situations to suit the parties we choose, personalizing our Quests for our players--for instance, by having more enemies drop their Gold via valuable items, which reduces Rogue throughput, and by having enemies steal positive effects, which increases drain on buffing consumables. At the same time, if the party mainly consists of Heroes who are already strapped for cash and consumables, we can buff the loot they get to bring them up to the current standard.

Besides, players are limited by the number of consumables they already have in their inventories, and what opportunities you allow them in-Quest to buy more. Thus, if they decide to go into battle with positive effects, you can counteract them specifically, rather than universally designing your enemies to assume players will use all the buffs they have available to them.

[Kintobor]

Or perhaps a global solution within a quest.

QM note This quest will take exactly six weeks. It will end after 42 days even if in the middle of battle. Ending mid battle will fail the battle, but may not entail failing the quest. I will commit to minimum 24hour updates and wil notify you beforehand if I wil miss one. Missed QM updates will add to the quest length.

That I am fully against. Players can't always commit to the game because of real life. You also have to consider people living in different time zones. It's just unfair to the players.

[CMP]

Besides, players are limited by the number of consumables they already have in their inventories, and what opportunities you allow them in-Quest to buy more. Thus, if they decide to go into battle with positive effects, you can counteract them specifically, rather than universally designing your enemies to assume players will use all the buffs they have available to them.

Then what in the world is the point of using consumables if QMs plan specifically to nullify them?

[Scorpiox]

I'm still not in favour of the time-limit consumables, largely because of the way that such a rule would affect some classes more heavily than others.

[Flipz]

Then what in the world is the point of using consumables if QMs plan specifically to nullify them?

Normally, I'm against it, but it's clear that Sandy's philosophy is that positive effects shouldn't change the general "difficulty level" of his battles. It's a matter of QM philosophy, and for my suggestions I'm trying to work within Sandy's philosophy. As long as I know ahead of time that that's how the QM is going to run their battles, I can live with it, even if I don't really like it. It's when the QM assumes the players will use consumables that problems happen (see the first battle against Sorona).

TL;DR, if it's a choice between consumables becoming useless in general or getting f*cked in the middle of a battle by positive effects running out, I'll take the former.

[Etzel]

What we really need is a limit on how many effects a player can have. To be able to buff yourself in several ways (eg. Hastened, Lucky, Encouraged etc.) makes the battles too hard for the QMs to balance (and to calculate). I would love to see a rule that only allows one positive and one negative effect on the players.

[Kintobor]

What we really need is a limit on how many effects a player can have. To be able to buff yourself in several ways (eg. Hastened, Lucky, Encouraged etc.) makes the battles too hard for the QMs to balance (and to calculate). I would love to see a rule that only allows one positive and one negative effect on the players.

I would say three positive effects tops, and for negative effects- well, throw as many on the poor sap as you want! I actually don't mind this idea, as it makes having items that deal with "permanent insert effect here" slightly less desirable depending on the situation. Once again, I'm saying this is the best solution, we still should keep this discussion going.

[Flipz]

You know, the real "problem" I'm seeing here is, again, some Heroes have more and some have less (both in terms of abilities and items), and we seem to be trying to force an equality between them. I've seen this argument played out in so many fields, I'm getting sick of it, and I'm almost at the point where I'd be OK with all of the gold and loot from all Heroes being gathered into a single account and divided up evenly, just so that people will stop complaining about the gap. And then all of the Heroes are forced to take the same basic, Advanced, Expert, and Master classes just to be sure everything is even. (Almost, not quite.)

The only way that this game will ever be "balanced" is if a bolt of lightning struck and reset everything in Heroica--plot, Heroes, items, etc.--back to Day 1. The game was balanced in those very beginning days. The moment that first battle in Old Mack Dounald's fields ended and the Heroes earned experience and loot, the game became unbalanced--and it will never be "balanced" again.

Fair? That's a different story. For the most part, I think it is, though there are some unfair situations--but generally we try to solve those on a gentle case-by-case basis so that we can actually solve the problem instead of just switching who's being wronged.

I also think that QMs shouldn't be trying to "win". Put the Heroes in danger? Yes. Actually intend to defeat them? Unless it's a specific plot point, no. This is one of the two biggest problems with the Fields of Glory: it was intended as a "hardcore" challenge in which the QM is actively trying to outmaneuver the Heroes and force them out unless they were literally at the top of their game. (The other one is that it hasn't really evolved at all in response to the changes in the rest of the meta--it's stayed almost exactly the same as it was when it first opened, and as a result has not coped well with power creep.) The Fields were never meant to be "beaten", so now that it's happening, people think there's a problem with the Heroes, instead of people realizing the real problem is with the Fields themselves.

[Kintobor]

I also think that QMs shouldn't be trying to "win". Put the Heroes in danger? Yes. Actually intend to defeat them? Unless it's a specific plot point, no. This is one of the two biggest problems with the Fields of Glory: it was intended as a "hardcore" challenge in which the QM is actively trying to outmaneuver the Heroes and force them out unless they were literally at the top of their game. (The other one is that it hasn't really evolved at all in response to the changes in the rest of the meta--it's stayed almost exactly the same as it was when it first opened, and as a result has not coped well with power creep.) The Fields were never meant to be "beaten", so now that it's happening, people think there's a problem with the Heroes, instead of people realizing the real problem is with the Fields themselves.

This. The players evolved, but the Field didn't. If anything, the way I see it, although it would be a hassle, the fields almost needs a system that can evolve with the players in it. A level fifteen party wouldn't face the same horrors as a level thirty party. Perhaps, as sad as it is to say, we should retire the Fields and revamp the idea. No need to change locations, simply rework it to truly push players to the edge. The fact that one party has completely tanked two of the three Threshold Monsters is a little disheartening for some reason.

[Waterbrick Down]

This. The players evolved, but the Field didn't. If anything, the way I see it, although it would be a hassle, the fields almost needs a system that can evolve with the players in it. A level fifteen party wouldn't face the same horrors as a level thirty party. Perhaps, as sad as it is to say, we should retire the Fields and revamp the idea. No need to change locations, simply rework it to truly push players to the edge. The fact that one party has completely tanked two of the three Threshold Monsters is a little disheartening for some reason.

Isn't that the point of there being different locations of differing difficulty? Also, I know that the QM's do impelemnt different amounts of monsters depending on the party so they do have some input on balance. I think the threshold monsters are set battles but everything besides that is QM dependent. Did you see the Eastern Reaches, even our party who's nearly bested two of the threshold monsters were barely holding our own. Edited October 4, 2013 by Waterbrick Down

[Flipz]

Isn't that the point of there being different locations of differing difficulty? Also, I know that the QM's do impelemnt different amounts of monsters depending on the party. I think the threshold monsters are set battles but everything besides that is QM dependent? Did you see the Eastern Reaches, even our party who's nearly bested two of the threshold monsters were barely holding our own.

But that's the problem: that's the only thing they can do. They can't dream up new enemies to counteract the new strategies the Heroes think up, and the Threshold Guardians have been set in stone (no pun intended) since the Fields opened. What's listed as a "medium" battle is a walk in the park by current standards, and even the "Hard" and "Very Hard" battles are just about even with the average battle we're seeing elsewhere. Not that that's necessarily bad in and of itself, but it's not living up to its own vision according to the modern standards.

[Endgame]

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that the Fields seem a bit too easy right now. When the Northern/Easter/Western reaches were revealed, I thought that they would be as sprawling as the first. But the first reaches have been pretty much conquered, with almost a year until we start seeing the Expert Classes getting fully utilized. I would imagine that the entirety of the unlimited quest will be fully trumped before long. For such an amazing concept, I'd hate to see the fields be reduced to nothing more then a grinding spot, rather then a test of mettle.

Unrelated note: I have been throwing around ideas for a boss rush, but this debate has led to me wanting to some outside opinion - would anyone be interested in seeing them in the QM lounge?

Isn't that the point of there being different locations of differing difficulty? Also, I know that the QM's do impelemnt different amounts of monsters depending on the party so they do have some input on balance. I think the threshold monsters are set battles but everything besides that is QM dependent. Did you see the Eastern Reaches, even our party who's nearly bested two of the threshold monsters were barely holding our own.

I honestly don't think that the Eastern/Northern/Western reaches should be conquerable at this stage of the game. Obviously, I think there should be a massive warning saying "This bastard will tear you anothert one!" But other then that, I think the Reaches should really only be able to be triumphed by a party of Expert Classes. it just seems too early for the most powerful areas of the fields to be conquered.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Endgame

[Kintobor]

I have been throwing around ideas for a boss rush, but this debate has led to me wanting to some outside opinion - would anyone be interested in seeing them in the QM lounge?

Sure, toss it up. There's no harm in sharing ideas!

[Flipz]

And Sandy, I hope you know, we're being harsh because we care, and we want to see your artistic vision succeed, rather than diminish.

[Waterbrick Down]

I honestly don't think that the Eastern/Northern/Western reaches should be conquerable at this stage of the game. Obviously, I think there should be a massive warning saying "This bastard will tear you anothert one!" But other then that, I think the Reaches should really only be able to be triumphed by a party of Expert Classes. it just seems too early for the most powerful areas of the fields to be conquered.

There I think you're wrong, if you take a look at our first battle in the Eastern reaches we were nearly creamed and only due to a lot of consumables and some really good rolls were we able to even beat that one. It wasn't long ago that people started chatting up what would be the best team to take on the fields and now that we've got one that has been doing well it seems like people are saying that the fields are now too easy.

[Palathadric]

I don't know. Seeing the battles in the fields makes me glad that I'm not there. I think they're plenty difficult. You have to realize that the team in there has an insanely powerful attacking force.

Perhaps, as an alternative idea against the counterstriking battles, you could have your boss's drops get reduced as the battle wears on. For instance, he drops 10 less gold per round or the SP/WP of the Weapon/Shield/Artifact is dropped by one per round, etc.

Also, CMP used a nice strategy where the opponents dealt negative effects with their weapons, which would make the hero get poisoned/badly poisoned/cursed even without actually taking damage from the hit itself.

Of course, there are immunities to such effects, but not everyone has crazy builds at this time.

[Endgame]

I'm talking in terms of longetivity. Perhaps its just a personal thing, but I personally wanted to see the fields stretch out into the endgame - as in, Master Classes. You've already pretty much swept two of the Guardians and breached on of the Reaches - and you have one Expert Class with you. What if a team composed almost entirely of Expert Classes went along? It isn't that far off into the future now - Although the battles are perfectly balanced for your team, I'm simply afraid that the fields will be completely used up before long. The possibility of more areas is always possible, of course - I just don't want to see what is supposed to be considered an unlimited challenge being reduced to a grinding spot so soon.

[Tachyon]

I just don't want to see what is supposed to be considered an unlimited challenge being reduced to a grinding spot so soon.

You mean it isn't a grinding spot right now ?

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Also, CMP used a nice strategy where the opponents dealt negative effects with their weapons, which would make the hero get poisoned/badly poisoned/cursed even without actually taking damage from the hit itself.

Of course, there are immunities to such effects, but not everyone has crazy builds at this time.

I like this idea the best. Not a lot of enemies are like heroes. (As in, they could inflict some cool effects with their weapons.) I don't think a positive effect amount cap is good. Some heroes have spent money imbuing a ton of immunities into a shield, artifact, or whatever. So they have "Immune to bla bla bla...." Do those count as positive effects?

[Palathadric]

Um...no.

[Myrddyn]

If the problem is the Counterstrike Gloves, then perhaps they should be changed to offer something similar to the Mirror Damage ability that Sorcerers have--that is, rather than dealing damage equal to the Hero's Level, they deal damage equal to the damage taken. That way, the Heroes have to take damage in order to deal damage.

I like this idea best, I think.

I'd be Ok with an expiry on effects too, though. Maybe bump it up to something fairly extreme, 30 rounds or something, as a reasonable number of battles go for ten rounds, but then Erik doesn't use consumables all that much anyway.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Myrddyn

[Sandy]

I'M A GENIUS!

Well, not really, but I think I found a simple solution to fix the loophole without making anyone feel treated unfairly.

What if we give enemies a dash of A.I., so that they will not use Free Hits on heroes that they cannot damage? If a Level 50 enemy is faced with a hero who has over 25 SP and stands in the back row, the enemy will deem the hero futile to attack, and instead targets the next hero in order with the Free Hit. Then, when only this impossibly defensive hero is left, the enemy will simply do nothing, forcing a stale-mate. This will prevent the enemies from bashing their heads repeatedly and automatically on an undefeatable barrier, and force at least one hero to take a chance and attack the enemy directly.

So, am I a genius or what?