Give Bionicle a Break

[Darkness Falls]

My apologies, Hubalaboo, for spelling your SN wrong -- on to your comment --

1) As I pointed out, most of BZP and most of the non-BZP audience is happy with the level of action. We upped it because that is what fans asked for during the years when it was low-level. That doesn't mean everyone is going to like that, but the majority seem to, and we have to market to the majority.

2) BIONICLE isn't a cartoon with an episode you have to watch every day. The comics come out every two months, and there is a six month gap between Book 6 and Book 7. If fans need to take a breath, that is ample opportunity. The only people I know who have to be immersed in the world of BIONICLE every day are the web producer and myself.

3) There is something to be said for "heroes take a break" stories. But I simply have no room -- I have three books and six comics to tell the entire story for the year, with a lot of plot points and 20+ characters I have to introduce and work in and make exciting. I don't have the room to deal with what Toa do in their off-time. That is what fan fiction is for. I wish I could do more characterization and spend more time on the Toa sitting around chatting ... but I had next to no room for that before, and I have none now with the reduced book schedule.

And, as I said, I can count on one hand the number of "heroes take a break" stories I have seen in comics over the last, oh, 10 years. That isn't what people buy comics or novels for. Right now, we we are telling a trilogy -- and trilogies build tension as they go along, they don't lessen it.

Think about it - you are one of six heroes on Voya Nui or Mahri Nui. How much downtime do you think you are going to have? You're in a race to find the Mask of Life before Mata Nui dies -- are you going to sit around and relax and take a breath? What if Mata Nui drops dead because you wasted time on break? I would have a hard time explaining why that would make sense for them to do at this point.

Is the story going to get MORE violent? No, I don't see that happening.

Is it going to be less dramatic, less action-packed, less tense as we barrel along? No.

I suggest if you are going to ride along, you fasten your seat belts. Book 8 ends with a bang, and if plans proceed as I hope they will for 2008, it is going to be a worthy and slam-bang end to the trilogy.

Greg

That sentence, right there, is why I don't give Bionicle a break. The End.

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Well said, Falls.

[JINZONINGEN73]

1) As I pointed out, most of BZP and most of the non-BZP audience is happy with the level of action. We upped it because that is what fans asked for during the years when it was low-level. That doesn't mean everyone is going to like that, but the majority seem to, and we have to market to the majority.

Too bad it's done wrong. We asked for a hotdog and got one of those soggy, giant white sausages with the skin wrapper dangling off the ends. :-|

2) BIONICLE isn't a cartoon with an episode you have to watch every day. The comics come out every two months, and there is a six month gap between Book 6 and Book 7. If fans need to take a breath, that is ample opportunity.

Lol, no. It's like watching 2 minutes of a new Star Wars movie and not getting the next 2 minutes for months. Chaos imminent as "fans" over-think things.

X D

3) There is something to be said for "heroes take a break" stories. But I simply have no room -- I have three books and six comics to tell the entire story for the year, with a lot of plot points and 20+ characters I have to introduce and work in and make exciting. I don't have the room to deal with what Toa do in their off-time.

I actually sympathize with him here.

Constrictive deadlines are one of the #1 reason comics, movie, videogames and books end up sucking.

Like having a moc contest that has a hyper-detailed theme, but with only 2 days to get it built, photo'ed and uploaded online.

Anyone who's ever held a job for any decent amount of time knows what insanity higher-ups are capable of as far as being given 2 hours of work to do in one half hour.

That is what fan fiction is for. I wish I could do more characterization and spend more time on the Toa sitting around chatting ... but I had next to no room for that before, and I have none now with the reduced book schedule.

Think about it - you are one of six heroes on Voya Nui or Mahri Nui. How much downtime do you think you are going to have? You're in a race to find the Mask of Life before Mata Nui dies -- are you going to sit around and relax and take a breath? What if Mata Nui drops dead because you wasted time on break? I would have a hard time explaining why that would make sense for them to do at this point.

Again, deadlines. It might be he's incapable to create a year of "every day life", AND add suspense and excitement into it, but he's screwed due to the deadline.

We'll never know. :-/

I suggest if you are going to ride along, you fasten your seat belts. Book 8 ends with a bang, and if plans proceed as I hope they will for 2008, it is going to be a worthy and slam-bang end to the trilogy.

I swear, if there was ever a more "Bionicle is coming to an end" statement than that.

Although that'd indicate Bionicle ends, it doesn't mean a more laid-back sequel can't then be done... going back to that non-story "exploration" dealie I've suggested before.

As "what the HELL?!?" we are over the story and set designs, imagine what it's like for him, when deadlines get tighter and he has to rethink a story created that took up a house to fit only in a shoebox.

He is to be pitied, despite the negatives that are rightfully his in other areas.

[Visorak-kal]

Too bad it's done wrong. We asked for a hotdog and got one of those soggy, giant white sausages with the skin wrapper dangling off the ends.

I guess you don't like the kind of action, but, to be truthful, it's not all that different from 2003! The action in today's BIONICLE story is higher, but in some ways similar to 2003. Example?

In Comic 10, Onua Nuva lifts a rock (a huge rock, for which he needs his Pakari Nuva) and prepares to throw it at the Bohrok-Kal. Pahrak-Kal melts the rock.

In BL#3, Power Play, Hewkii Inika lifts a small rock, and uses his Great Mask of Accuracy to pinpoint how the rock will rockechet and hit Vezok. The hit is successful this time.

Both Toa threw a rock. A frequent I notice on BZP is that many members who long for 2001 and say BIONICLE is headed downhill due to physical action, not powers, fail to realize that ONua Nuva picking up a giant rock in Comic 10, or Pohatu Mata picking up a giant rock and throwing it at the Bahrag is just as physical as Hewkii throwing a rock at Vezok. What is the difference between a Bohrok basically head-butting a Toa to knock of his mask, or Vezon slamming a Toa's head into a wall? Both are trying to achieve the same objective. (And remember that Vezon has no powers anymore, his only choice is physical contact.)

Granted, a sense of mystique and legendary heroism is no longer there, but it's been six years; a lot of mystique is bound to go. Harry Potter 6 is no longer as mystical as Harry Potter 1. The mystery of how Voldemort came back is gone. Same with BIONICLE. Things lose their mystique as time passes by.

I swear, if there was ever a more "Bionicle is coming to an end" statement than that.

Although that'd indicate Bionicle ends, it doesn't mean a more laid-back sequel can't then be done... going back to that non-story "exploration" dealie I've suggested before.

If I remember clearly, Greg Farshtey said they were already working on story for 2009. You really can't assume that Bionicle is ending. 2008 has to be done, since sets and work are already done for it. BIONICLE will last as long as sets sell. If BIONICLE flops this year, 2008 will very likely be its end. If BIONICLE sales skyrocket, as they did in 2006, then the LEGO Group will continue BIONICLE in 2009 as planned. Just because a trilogy of BIONICLE ends with a bang doesn't mean the story will end. Although I have to agree that is sure does sound like that...

In the end, I hold firm to the belief that the sales of BIONICLE will determine LEGO's actions. If BIONICLE continues to move up as LEGO's number one theme, I doubt really highly that LEGO will abandon their highest selling theme!

(And they don't have to run out of ideas. There were seven story "books" created by Bob Thompson for BIONICLE. 2001-2003 was one story book, 2004-2005 was another, and 2006-2008 is only the third. There is more to go, provided that sets sell, which they are doing at this point.)

Don't get me wrong; I"m not a hater of 2001-2005, and never will be. I miss complex and whole builds like the Bahrag, Exo-Toa, and Rahi. I miss the mystique and feel of 2001. But I also like the new direction the story and sets are taking. Mahri and their Cordak blasters disappoint me a bit, but sets like Gadunka, Hydraxon, and Nocturn entice me. The story is exciting, and very reminiscent of 2001.

VK

[JINZONINGEN73]

The problem is that it's either feast or famine.

They start off not really getting hurt, instead of rocks landing on guys they get melted, getting hurt happens offscreen... and it's a poison scratch.

Mask of Light's violence and the hippy way they depicted elemental stuff was pure baby food, a step backwards in the coolness of 2001.

They kind of got it going good in the last movie. It certainly seemed that death was taking place at the end, while leading up to it the characters had emotions and personal conflicts. There was even some mystique thrown in, however foofy that is for people.

But now? It's kinda' just a mess.

Personally the "elemental attacks" of 2001 were just a kiddy way of putting violence in without angering parents or scaring small children. Someone getting their head slammed into a wall once would've been welcome. Then again, the infected Lewa VS. Onua fight was pretty good, and was depicted in a way that there was still excitement.

I recall Gali nailing a Rahi rather slammingly as well. True, mini-makuta not being hacked to pieces by sword or axe was just more fluffing up of the action to make it kid-safe, but there was still a decently exciting crescendo to the fight... and that just added to the humor, character developement, mystique and storytelling of what came leading up to that.

That's nothing like what's going on now. There's no exploration... just a bunch of characters wearing nametags on their foreheads, getting chucked down waterslides and into WACKY cage fights. Which would be cool, if one were to have been given reason to care for anyone involved.

Books, comics, movies... bah. Include a cd-rom in some sets containing flash movies emulating the way the first story was told. It's easy to make it rich enough to warrant interest, vague enough to induce creative thought, and I'm pretty darn sure it's cheaper to produce than a movie or line of anally-detailed books.'

I mean what, does Lego want people buying Lego sets or sitting under a tree a few days reading a book that's been rushed due to deadlines?

No, maybe they created those deadlines so the writer has to collate only the parts of the writing the execs want added in, making the books so "HUH?" that kids will instead be on messageboards for weeks on end complaining and theorizing about what's actually going on.

X D

There's no... newness. There's not anything inducing thought in the stories, and due to the currently simplified set designs, nothing inducing kids to moc (buy more sets).

Their success now is a cheap fix... added violence where there wasn't before.

Will that keep on working for years? Doubt it.

[Visorak-kal]

That's nothing like what's going on now. There's no exploration... just a bunch of characters wearing nametags on their foreheads, getting chucked down waterslides and into WACKY cage fights. Which would be cool, if one were to have been given reason to care for anyone involved.

I'll take this point first. There is still exploration going on, just not on the scale of 2001. Why not?

Because the heroes of 2006-2007 are the Toa Inika. They were once Matoran of Mata Nui in the years 2001-2003. Those years were VERY Matoran-heavy, because Bob Thompson wanted more focus on Matoran than Toa. (That ended up being a bad idea, as Toa were the main sellers, not Matoran.) Those Matoran in 2001-2003 alreay DID their exploration. Jaller was even one of the main characters in Mask of Light. Hahli was the main character in MNOLG 2. Those Matoran did some learning, they fought alongside Toa, they know the ways of Toa. They still have learning to do, because not everything is as simple as a second-hand view.

Take Matoro, for example. He always had the heart of a Toa, keeping the Turaga's secrets to himself, not being able to share them. However, he didn't believe he was Toa material, as is apparent in Bl2 and Bl3. Yet in Bl5, Inferno, Matoro realized that he had to step up, and he became willing to sacrifice his life for the mission. Another example; Jaller was determined not to make the mistakes of previous fire Toa, yet he realized that he had to take action; he couldn't step back all the time to think about Vakama's tales.

Also, according to Greg Farshtey, a main plot point of Legends 7 will focus on whether or not Toa should kill their enemies. When the universe is in danger, and Mata Nui is dying, can they the Toa take a chance to leave their enemies alive, so they can return later? That's exploration, unless I'm mistaken.

Personally the "elemental attacks" of 2001 were just a kiddy way of putting violence in without angering parents or scaring small children. Someone getting their head slammed into a wall once would've been welcome. Then again, the infected Lewa VS. Onua fight was pretty good, and was depicted in a way that there was still excitement.

I recall Gali nailing a Rahi rather slammingly as well. True, mini-makuta not being hacked to pieces by sword or axe was just more fluffing up of the action to make it kid-safe, but there was still a decently exciting crescendo to the fight... and that just added to the humor, character developement, mystique and storytelling of what came leading up to that.

I agree with you there. Elemental powers, though interesting, were basically a limit to violence. (Hence the Toa's swords, hooks, etc. being 'tools' instead of weapons.) However, we've recently had a lot of interesting ways elemental powers have been used. Vakama absorbing the heat to freeze an enemy, Vezok using fire and ice to create a smoke screen for escape, and the Toa Inika using their elemental powers to harm Vezon and Fenrakk, since physical attacks only made them stronger.

Books, comics, movies... bah. Include a cd-rom in some sets containing flash movies emulating the way the first story was told. It's easy to make it rich enough to warrant interest, vague enough to induce creative thought, and I'm pretty darn sure it's cheaper to produce than a movie or line of anally-detailed books.'

The comics have always been there; that is how the story was first told, in addition to the CD's. ALso, not all the sets had CD's. Many countries did not get that privelege, for reason(s) unknown. Movies were a bad idea, IMO. While Legends of Metru Nui and Web of Shadows were great films, they ruined the comics for the year. The comics didn't even tell the end of the story, which was a major disappointment. (For example, 2004's Comic 21 left us hanging, saying "See the Movie!", 2003's comic 15 didn't tell us the battle between Takanuva and Makuta ("See the movie!") and 2005's Comic 27 said, you guessed it, "see the movie!" Movies were a bad idea. Period.

Books, on the other hand, are not. They provide a detailed story, with interesting plot points and information that GregF cannot include in the comics. Without Bionicle Legends 2, where would Karzahni play a part? He wouldn't. Without the books, the Toa Nuva would have DISAPPEARED in 2006. They were forbidden in the comics, although GregF pleaded for their appearance. (That's how we got Tahu Nuva's Kanohi Hau Nuva in Comic 1 of Ignition.) Books like Time Trap are purely for our enjoyment. Voyage of Fear, Maze of Shadows, and Time Trap served no purpose for LEGO's sales, but for books sales and the enjoyment of fans.

I mean what, does Lego want people buying Lego sets or sitting under a tree a few days reading a book that's been rushed due to deadlines?

No, maybe they created those deadlines so the writer has to collate only the parts of the writing the execs want added in, making the books so "HUH?" that kids will instead be on messageboards for weeks on end complaining and theorizing about what's actually going on.

X D

The dilemma GregF faces with the books now is not a matter of top management being cruel, it's a matter of sales being harder. Books sales down in series after time; it's a retail fact. Bionicle Adventures sold over 100,000 copies, Bionicle Legends sold 30,000. That's a big drop, so Scholastic decided to cut the original BL7, Invasion, from the 2007 line. That caused problems, because GregF had to incorporate the same amount of characters with one less book. That's not easy, to incorporate over 20 characters in 3 books. But Scholastic believe that's the way to keep sales up. So far, GregF has not disappointed me in terms of Bionicle Legends 6, and Legends 1-5. Look at any book series; it becomes harder as time goes by. But get rid of the books, and what have we? Comics that tell hardly ANY character exploration, and miniscule story. Maybe the occasional CD, since LEGO will have lost an output. BUt how much story can you fit on a CD, without having to increase the cost of the set that comes with it? CD's are expensive; the more info you put, the more the CD costs (as with most things.)

And books help sell sets; that's what LEGO wants. Books tell the story. The story is what made BIONICLE successful. IT was not a line where kids were given Biomechancial people and told, "These are heroes fighting Makuta. Go make a story, kid." The story was given to them, with room for embellishment. There still is room for embellishment. (Otherwise, BZP would not be full of fan fictions. :-) ) Books still tell story, and as of 2006, set sales are still high.

There's no... newness. There's not anything inducing thought in the stories, and due to the currently simplified set designs, nothing inducing kids to moc (buy more sets).

Their success now is a cheap fix... added violence where there wasn't before.

Will that keep on working for years? Doubt it.

"Newness?" Where is newness in anything? Compare Lord of the Rings to Eragon to any fiction-fantasy. Sword fights and dragon flames and heros facing far more powerful villains with magic. There's very little newness.

In 2001 Onua lifted a rock and threw it at Nui-Rama. In 2003 Onua Nuva lifted a rock and tried to throw it at Pahrak-Kal. No newness in how he threw the rock. :-/

In 2001 Kopaka froze a Rahi. In 2002 Kohrak froze Lewa. No newness in how they froze the other guy.

There was no newness between comics in 2001 and 2003. There WAS newness when LEGO took a new turn in 2004-2005. There WAS newness when LEGO allowed for more darkness in the story in 2006. There WAS newness when LEGO stopped swarm villains and moved on to great characters like PIraka and now Barraki. What newness are you looking for?

I don't see their sucess as a cheap fix of added violence. I see it as a more complex story, instead of "Toa go underground, Toa almost lose, Toa beat villain, Toa return to surface, repeat." That was the story in 2001-2003. Yes, it can be argued that 2006 did that as well, but 2006 had way more backstory, and way more interesting plot points. 2001's advantage of 2006? IT was new; it was brand new and there was nothing like it. Now, we've had 6 years of Biological Chronicle. No newness, as you say.

Will LEGO's new strategy of easier build and more story work? We'll sure find out as the years go by.

VK

[KMOI]

Both of you have made some really good points, and I agree with most. However, I'll cater so some of your points, Visorak:

Books, on the other hand, are not. They provide a detailed story, with interesting plot points and information that GregF cannot include in the comics. Without Bionicle Legends 2, where would Karzahni play a part? He wouldn't. Without the books, the Toa Nuva would have DISAPPEARED in 2006. They were forbidden in the comics, although GregF pleaded for their appearance. (That's how we got Tahu Nuva's Kanohi Hau Nuva in Comic 1 of Ignition.) Books like Time Trap are purely for our enjoyment. Voyage of Fear, Maze of Shadows, and Time Trap served no purpose for LEGO's sales, but for books sales and the enjoyment of fans.

Books, to me, were a massive pain. See, I don't have time to read children's books anymore, and especially ones with brainless action. The so called plot "twists" aren't really that revolutionary. In fact, most have been championed by superstar comic book writers at Marvel and DC decades before Greg even TOUCHED Bionicle. In terms of complexity, yes, it is complex. But in ALL the WRONG ways. How many teams of Toa do we have now? Thousands? And what about that insane guild of Dark Hunters which apparently numbers over 500? And do we REALLY need to be aquainted with 500 variations of PEWKU CRABS?

As for bringing back the Toa Nuva, I agree with the big cheeses. Greg should have listened and let the originals die. They started out as insanely powered figures (See Gali nearly submerging the entire Ga-Koro underwater). And they became WIMPS. I've said this BILLIONS of times, and if you want to see what I've said as examples, feel free to scroll into my past posts.

Take Matoro, for example. He always had the heart of a Toa, keeping the Turaga's secrets to himself, not being able to share them.

Here's my issue with this. Isn't it more fun to have a NORMAL matoran with the heart of a hero? Just like MNOLG1. The small guys could change the future. But now? No. Small guys need to get upgraded, THEN they can change the future.

What I liked about the Matoran is that they proved that even normal people can make a difference. They can shape the future. They aren't helpless.

But now? They all got to get upgraded to be of some importance. While the 2006 Voya matoran tried to do that, their mini-story was reduced nothing afterwards.

Also, according to Greg Farshtey, a main plot point of Legends 7 will focus on whether or not Toa should kill their enemies. When the universe is in danger, and Mata Nui is dying, can they the Toa take a chance to leave their enemies alive, so they can return later?

See Infinate Crisis (all of them), and you'll get where his ideas are coming from.

"Newness?" Where is newness in anything? Compare Lord of the Rings to Eragon to any fiction-fantasy. Sword fights and dragon flames and heros facing far more powerful villains with magic. There's very little newness.

Watch Avatar and you'll see how elements are REALLY done.

There was no newness between comics in 2001 and 2003. There WAS newness when LEGO took a new turn in 2004-2005. There WAS newness when LEGO allowed for more darkness in the story in 2006. There WAS newness when LEGO stopped swarm villains and moved on to great characters like PIraka and now Barraki. What newness are you looking for?

Disagreed.

2001 had Toa pitted against massive mechanical monsters that were far larger and stronger than themselves. They had to use wits, mask powers and elements to achieve victory. Heroes could be captured and turned evil via corrupted mask. And they had a little matter to deal with that we call defending civilians. Oh, and how about fighting a villian with NO BODY? Rarely seen ever before.

2002 introduced swarms. All had elemental powers. All of them were strong. Seeing the Toa stuggle to adapt was a sheer marvel. In the comics, you could see each of the characters actually interact, as opposed to the generic "hero banter" of Metru onwards.

2003 had the Toa Nuva losing their powers COMPLETELY. Watching them fight without them was entertaining, though I still think the writers completely forgot about the "Nuva" part of the Nuva masks (They could share powers with those nearby).

2004 is introduced your fabled "great characters". Sure, they didn't talk, but it was a start. And for the record, I thought this saga was HORRIBLE, as Lewa suddenly went treespeak and Takanuva was a walking talking flashlight. And Makuta being defeated by a LACROSS BALL? UNGH.

2005 was a nice touch, though the storyline was nuts in the beginning. (They were fighting a MUTANT WEED for the first 5 months?) Loved the medium sized sets though.

Anyways, from 2005 onwards was simply this. Introduce villian, upgrade secondary character, upgraded characters pwn villians, upgraded characters get owned by titans. Upgraded characters get smart. Upgraded characters win via convinently placed plot device. Cut to new island. Play for 2 years, remix and repeat.

I'm sorry, but I honestly do not see how 2005+'s storylines have been unique in any way. Darker? It takes alot more than someone breaking someone else's arm or throwing people through walls to impress me. 2005 got it right. Socialistic regime, and how to fight back both the rulers and villians. Now THAT interested me.

I don't see their sucess as a cheap fix of added violence. I see it as a more complex story, instead of "Toa go underground, Toa almost lose, Toa beat villain, Toa return to surface, repeat." That was the story in 2001-2003.

That's a massive generalization there. You want me to say what it was like for 2004 onwards? Toa fight in plain sight, Toa almost lose, Toa beat villain, repeat. What was nice about 2001-2003 is the stuff that happened BEFORE the final showdown. The conversations between Toa in the comics were oscar-worthy when compared to the witless, emotionless hero-banter of Metru and onwards.

As for GregF's incredibly ignorant comment about the storyline complaints, I have this to say.

Fanfiction IS NOT CANON.

[Zane]

This is actually sort of fun, though, because some of the stuff that Inkling is complaining we never do, we are already planning to do ... and I know full well that NO ONE on BZP has come anywhere close to predicting the end of this year, let alone next year or the year after. IF plans continue along the lines of what we discussed last fall, we are seriously breaking the BIONICLE mold in the next few years. So there will be lots of new things to complain about ... :-) :-) :-)

Greg

Oh god no.... *sing*

[vahkimetru]

Oh god no.... *sing*

Greg really supports Bionicle. :-(

[Visorak-kal]

In terms of complexity, yes, it is complex. But in ALL the WRONG ways. How many teams of Toa do we have now? Thousands? And what about that insane guild of Dark Hunters which apparently numbers over 500? And do we REALLY need to be aquainted with 500 variations of PEWKU CRABS?

Now there are less than 50 Toa. Yes, at one point, there were thousands, which opens up new ideas and room for people's own storylines. In great action stories like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, etc, there are thousands of rebels and a whole host of rebel planets or imperial planets, but they weren't featured in the main story. There were 3,000 Toa, yes, but they aren't featured in the main story. That is purely trivia, which plays no importance to the story, but can be fun for storyline buffs. Dark Hunters have a lot of members, but actually the member count HAS NOT been specified, though it could be hundreds. We don't know. An expanded universe is a good thing, IMO. Star Wars has an expanded universe, and it's a blockbuster hit. PLus, they don't even cater to set sales. There are so many Star Wars characters it boggles the mind, but people like them, they liked that expanded universe. Not saying the story has to focus on it, but it can make things more interesting if it's there.

Books, to me, were a massive pain. See, I don't have time to read children's books anymore, and especially ones with brainless action.

I don't quite find the action brainless. Any action in which the villain attacks the hero and the hero fights back is not brainless. It happened in 2001-2005, and that was fine. I have a feeling, though, that regarding books comes somewhat to what people define as to their liking. I read BIONICLE books in under 30 minutes, so I have both the time and I enjoy them.

I would see movies as more of a pain. The books and comics can exist simultaneously. The books do not degrade from the comics in any way. Movies, on the other hand, took away from the comic ending of the year, because they wanted people to buy the movie. THe books are not being marketed in the same way, so they do not detract from the comics. If I, for example, think the comics are a better story than the books, I can subscribe to the comics and not buy the books.

As for bringing back the Toa Nuva, I agree with the big cheeses. Greg should have listened and let the originals die. They started out as insanely powered figures (See Gali nearly submerging the entire Ga-Koro underwater). And they became WIMPS. I've said this BILLIONS of times, and if you want to see what I've said as examples, feel free to scroll into my past posts.

I have a feeling your arguments are the same as most. And they're valid arguments, ones that I myself have thought over. I've come to this conclusion; that the Toa Nuva are just as powerful as ever.

In their first fight with the Rahkshi, the three Toa Nuva underestimated the power of the three Rahkshi, and did not know their enemies, and got crushed. The Rahkshi, on the other hand, knew about the Toa Nuva because Makuta knew about the Toa Nuva; their strengths and their weaknesses.(Comic 13, Rise of the Rahkshi)

In their first fight with the Piraka, the Toa Nuva did not know their opponents. The Piraka, on the other hand, were trained Toa killers. Regardless, the PIraka DID fail to successfully eliminate the Toa Nuva, even after their first defeat. Later on, the Toa Nuva were ready and knew about the Piraka; they and the Matoran resistance would have ended it all there. But neither knew about the existence of a final enemy; Brutaka, one who is near the power level of Makuta. They didn't know his strength, they didn't know that he was really a member of the Order of Mata Nui; so they got crushed instead.

Here's my issue with this. Isn't it more fun to have a NORMAL matoran with the heart of a hero? Just like MNOLG1. The small guys could change the future. But now? No. Small guys need to get upgraded, THEN they can change the future.

What I liked about the Matoran is that they proved that even normal people can make a difference. They can shape the future. They aren't helpless.

But now? They all got to get upgraded to be of some importance. While the 2006 Voya matoran tried to do that, their mini-story was reduced nothing afterwards.

With this, I agree completely. I'm not trying to defend the decision to make Jaller and Co. Toa. I was disappointed when I saw who the Toa INika were. But, given the situation now, it's impossible to deny that Matoro has grown, has done some exploring.

See Infinate Crisis (all of them), and you'll get where his ideas are coming from.

Perhaps, but isn't it possible he's never seen Infinite Crisis? Whether or not heroes should kill villains is something a number of writers could incorporate. Regardless, what I'm saying is that this is exploration into the hearts of the heroes. The story isn't bland. Just because I've seen an example where the hero's fatehr is a villain (STAR WARS) doesn't make it a bad idea when I see it again. (ERAGON) Similarly, just because the idea has been used before (LEGO STAR WARS VIDEO GAME) doesn't make a similar game bad (BIONICLE HEROES) I mention the latter two because many reviews of Bionicle Heroes criticized it for being similar to Lego Star Wars Video Game. But, what I"m saying is, "yeah, it's a copy, DONE BY THE SAME PEOPLE. But isn't that better, since its core concept is from another good game?"

---

With your analysis on 2001-2003, I agree that they were different. There were different in exactly the respect that you wrote. I wasn't criticizing them, per say, but I was saying that the level of variation in 2004-2007 CANNOT be said to be less than 2001-2003.

That's a massive generalization there. You want me to say what it was like for 2004 onwards? Toa fight in plain sight, Toa almost lose, Toa beat villain, repeat. What was nice about 2001-2003 is the stuff that happened BEFORE the final showdown. The conversations between Toa in the comics were oscar-worthy when compared to the witless, emotionless hero-banter of Metru and onwards.

That's the point. 2004 onwards was very similar plot point, but it was not any less similar than 2001-2003. With regard to the Toa Mata dialogue, I agree somewhat. They had great dialogue all the time there, but I must say that some dialogue in the recent story is good as well, it just is missing that...I don't know, ancient or legendary feel. You know what I mean?

Fanfiction IS NOT CANON.

It certainly isn't. I think Greg's point there is that many people complain about the BIONICLE storyline, just as many people complain about Eragon. Those who like it are free to do so, and those who dont' have to make the best of it and make up their own BIONICLE or their own Eragon, if they please. Complaining is fine, but his point is that it probably won't change LEGO's mind a lot. :-D

Watch Avatar and you'll see how elements are REALLY done.

Avatar may be great and innovative (I don't know, I rarely watch cartoons), but things like that are basically rare. How many fantasy-fiction stories have you read that are as innovative as Avatar and Lord of the Rings (when it first was written)? Not many to my experience, and I've read a lot of fantasy-fiction, I've even written it. And you know what? My ideas cannot be said to be original and have a lot of "newness" in them. It's not about "newness", it's more about "goodness."

And yes, you may argue that there is no "Goodness." :-)

Oh god no....

Zane, what if he breaks the BIONICLE mold and goes more towards 2001? You can't condemn him if you dont' know what it is. As for new things to complain about...let's hope I'm not a complainer. (Like I am on the Toa Mahri subject...don't get me started on Matoro's arms.)

Greg really supports Bionicle.

I think he does, he's been there since 2001. He still fights for Mask packs, and for our favorite Toa Nuva to exist and be there. Had the Toa Nuva not appeared in 2006, they would've looked liked chickens...better fallen heroes than chickens! Now they are on to something tied to their original quest, which is good news. Greg supports BIONICLE greatly. You can argue he doesn't, and there may be some things for which he is at fault (there may be aspects of his writing that you don't like), but I think he does. Remember, BIONICLE is not defined. BIONICLE is whatever the LEGO Company comes out with, be it good or bad. If it's bad, I"m leaving, if It's good, as it has been so far to me, I'll stay.

VK

[Starwars4J]

Guys, just making sure, you know that GregF was an impostor? I figured you knew, but then people started commenting on it. Maybe just commenting on the ideas of a random Bionicle fan though?

[Echo]

The GregF that joined here was an impostor. We are talking about the real Greg over on BZP.

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Aye, the real Greggers wouldnt come here - Leastwise, not without Bonesii to act as Greggers Advocate.

[JINZONINGEN73]

Here's my issue with this. Isn't it more fun to have a NORMAL matoran with the heart of a hero? Just like MNOLG1. The small guys could change the future. But now? No. Small guys need to get upgraded, THEN they can change the future.

Exactly. Like you said, all it is now is constant upgrading silliness.

Dragonball Z / get your asscheeks handed to you, then power up / change form type of poop.

Lots of people who used to love Dragonball Z when they first got into it HATE it now because of the "never-ending" type story / character arcs.

And yet, around 2 decades after the series first aired, here that franchise is, still making money.

I guess that's where Bionicle is. Not really "good", but profitable.

Ew... I never noticed that parallel to Bionicle.

I loved the simple stories of "Dragonball", but eventually got bored of "Dragonball Z". ...weird. The arguments between that Bionicle are nearly identical. How didn't I notice this before now?

And if that's the case, I've probably been wrong. Bionicle likely WILL be making Lego money a good while, and likewise, alot of the older fans will hate it, it's revenue coming from wave after wave of "new" but not long-term fans.

There are so many Star Wars characters it boggles the mind, but people like them, they liked that expanded universe. Not saying the story has to focus on it, but it can make things more interesting if it's there.

Ah, you have a good point there.

I would see movies as more of a pain. The books and comics can exist simultaneously. The books do not degrade from the comics in any way. Movies, on the other hand, took away from the comic ending of the year, because they wanted people to buy the movie. THe books are not being marketed in the same way, so they do not detract from the comics. If I, for example, think the comics are a better story than the books, I can subscribe to the comics and not buy the books.

Books, comics, movies... they're ALL a pain to me.

Books, for a normal person, take time away from building. And unfortunately, one might spend a day on a book only to find it sucked and they just wasted alot of time and some money.

Comics... pfft. They come free in Lego mags, but are kinda' wonky in storyboard layout... very vague stuff.

Movies... gyuuh... no. They cost alot of money to make and with the exception of the third, really aren't entertaining enough tio cough up 20 bucks OR wait a year or more for the next installment.

But simple weekly or monthly online flash movies telling the story? You can't toss me a download button fast enough.

Bionicle Adventures sold over 100,000 copies, Bionicle Legends sold 30,000. That's a big drop, so Scholastic decided to cut the original BL7, Invasion, from the 2007 line.

What's that tell you?

The 2001 guys of Bionicle Chronicles created a ton of interest for the next series Bionicle Adventures.

Then, much sucking occured, which resulted in a 70,000 unit drop in sales for Bionicle Legends... a 70% decline in demand.

You can't get numbers like that by being good at what you do. Sure, one could blame the people in charge of distribution, but... it's a bit far-fetched to say it accounts for a drop that drastic.

I'm assuming those are the correct figures, as I haven't researched them myself.

QUOTE(Greg)

This is actually sort of fun, though, because some of the stuff that Inkling is complaining we never do, we are already planning to do ... and I know full well that NO ONE on BZP has come anywhere close to predicting the end of this year, let alone next year or the year after. IF plans continue along the lines of what we discussed last fall, we are seriously breaking the BIONICLE mold in the next few years. So there will be lots of new things to complain about ... classic.gif classic.gif classic.gif

Greg

Oh god no.... *sing*

I'll take a stab at it... all the good guys of their respective color get each merged into one "new" upgraded being, and the bad guys do the same?

Like Kopaka & Matoro, etc merging into some new "ice" guy, Gali & Hahlii, etc etc?

The judges would also have accepted: "Ok... who's going to die?"

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Greg could have just said, "Dont look now, but it gets a WHOLE lot worse!"

Lovely. By "Breaking The Mold" he definetly means something horrible that will forever **** on our memories of BIONICLE >_>

But maby, just maby, i'll be miraculously proven wrong!

:-|

[vahkimetru]

I was being sarcastic when I said GF supports Bionicle...

Was that the fake GF speaking about breaking the mold???

[KMOI]

The GregF that joined here was an impostor. We are talking about the real Greg over on BZP.

Maybe the one there too is an imposter? Who knows? There are some really good fortunetellers out there! X-D

In their first fight with the Piraka, the Toa Nuva did not know their opponents. The Piraka, on the other hand, were trained Toa killers.

Someone actually brought this up before, and here was my response:

The Piraka were a group of professional Toa-hunters. But Toa Nuva were so much more than just normal, run-of-the-mill Toa. And when the clashed, the Toa Nuva went out without even a wimper. I expected this to be the battle to end ALL battles. I expected part of Voya-Nui to be blown into oblivion from the raw might of the Toa Nuva's untamed power. Instead, we never got to see it. The Toa Nuva suddenly lacked the essential powers that made them "Nuva." No more extreme element usage, no more extreme unchecked power of the masks. Sure, the Piraka could beat the daylights out of a run-of-the-mill Toa, but the Nuva were insane when they were introduced. Sure, the Toa Nuva would be caught offguard. But so should the Piraka. I expected BOTH sides to limp off the battle field. I expected a battle that would literally tear the island apart, because that's just how powerful the Nuva were when introduced.

I'm also sure Greg read Infinate Crisis. Bionicle comics are distributed by DC Comics and even with that aside, all of the comic book/fictional world authors have read that event.

Ew... I never noticed that parallel to Bionicle.

Just thank the LEGO execs for not allowing full comics dedicated to power-up scenes. :-P

As for Greg's little "the future of Bionicle will kill your childhood" comment, here's what I think.

I'll take a stab at it... all the good guys of their respective color get each merged into one "new" upgraded being, and the bad guys do the same?

The judges would also have accepted: "Ok... who's going to die?"

If those don't pass, I predict...

BIONICLE CIVIL INFINITE CRISIS WAR!

Just replace Iron-Man with Jala, Captain America with Matoro, throw in the Karzhini as Emo!Superboy-Prime and for the last touch of horrible childhood destruction, have the fabric of time get shredded, so that billions of incarnations of Toa will suddenly appear, thus fulfilling the canister set requirement.

Oh, and for most shock value, someone's going to be decapitated, simply to amp up the dark and gritty factor.

;-)

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Hah!

I love reading your posts, KMOI :)

- Helden

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

GregF could of made the Brutaka litterally killing the Nuva in one blow, they should of made it.... more complex. like, Brutaka throwing Pohatu into Tahu while the Piraka beat the rest while they are caught off guard.that would be better. instead now it is basically a "drop a penny and we all die..." situation.

-ZotS

[Ogel111]

Bionicle can go jump in a lake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-( >:-(

EDIT: Edited to kill screen stretching. Hope this isn't a regular posting habit of yours.

And try describing your points more maturely next time.

-JINZO

[maiq the liar]

@Ogel111:

Don't Be retarded and say things without A good arguement to back it.

Also, dont use so many smilies.

[Darkness Falls]

GregF could of made the Brutaka litterally killing the Nuva in one blow, they should of made it.... more complex. like, Brutaka throwing Pohatu into Tahu while the Piraka beat the rest while they are caught off guard.that would be better. instead now it is basically a "drop a penny and we all die..." situation.

-ZotS

I think one of the best things about it is that Greg has reassured us many-a-time that...

The Nuva are teh most powerfull Toas EVER!

At yet, they can be beaten easily. The Inika have the advantage of knowing their foes, eh? Then why, when Avak creates a "perfect prison" which the captive can never escape from, Kongu does it with ease by using his conveniently bestowed Kanohi?

"On the next epsisode of Dragonball Z..."

[JINZONINGEN73]

"On the next epsisode of Dragonball Z..."

[Chuck]

You forgot to put in the crudely drawn MS-Paint spiky, yellow hair that multiplies in height after each pic.

-l2k-

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

Thats the way Bionicle is going. Too many transformations...

-ZotS