Bionicle Autopsy: Did Hero Factory Kill Bionicle?

[pocketmego]

Not mine. However, this guy touches on some interesting points. It doesn't really apply to most of this community. Near as I can tell, we are all about CONSTRACTION figures and less about sub-branding. Probably because of the HUGE MOCing community here and the desire for new and fresh parts. But, I know a lot of you (in some cases myself included) dig the HF sets as intended.

I don't know much about BZ POWER, I remember it being active back in the day. But, I came here, because that place was dead the last bunch of times I checked in.

I can understand some old school Bionicle fans never wanting to support HF. The fear makes perfect sense. "If we support HF, it will get popular and LEGO will never bring Bionicle back."

Is there validity in that? if we support the Constraction Figure as an over-all popular concept , do we sign away Bionicle forever?

Or

Is this guy's argument far more valid? (I am in this camp actually. I like the exploration of concepts that might grow from the Constraction Figure concept as a whole. The Chima figures prove to me just how versatile this can get.)

Thoughts?

[Aanchir]

I think this does make some good points. In truth, yes, people would need to support Hero Factory and similar themes for BIONICLE to ever have any chance of returning. At the same time, this is a bit too optimistic in some respects — even if every person who was a BIONICLE fan when the theme ended continued buying Hero Factory sets, that on its own wouldn't send a "bring back BIONICLE" message because for BIONICLE to come back it'd need to draw in an audience of brand-new fans. It COULD do that, certainly, if TLG's market research indicates that kids would be interested in that kind of thing once again. But it's misleading to suggest that BIONICLE's original fans have such an impressive level of control over what happens with the constraction category.

The issue boycotts, petitions, and other "bring back BIONICLE" campaigns have in common is the illusion of control. In truth, the devoted, strongly-connected, lifelong BIONICLE fan community on sites like BZPower never represented the majority of BIONICLE fans, something Greg Farshtey never hesitated to remind people. The majority of fans were "casual fans" who didn't necessarily follow the full story or even realize that there WAS such an in-depth story. I can recall a few of my friends who collected BIONICLE sets but didn't know anything about their story roles — they were simply interested in them as toys. Other fans likely didn't know much more about the story than what appeared in the catalogs and commercials. And I'm sure the same is true of Hero Factory to a great extent.

I definitely agree that supporting constraction sets is the best way to ensure that BIONICLE or something like it appears again in the future. But that's not because it makes a whole lot of difference, but rather because it's all that we as fans really have the power to do.

[Mesonak]

Thanks for making a topic about this! While I did not make the video in question, I manage and create content for the group channel on which it is hosted. :P

Your points are very valid, Aanchir. It's my belief that the intent of the video was not to inspire a false sense of control but rather, as you said, show people all we can really do to make a difference. Money speaks, and all that. The BIONICLE youtube community (as well as BZP, to some extent) is filled with people that seem to think that boycotting Hero Factory will help them achieve their end goal of reviving the BIONICLE brand. Communicating to them the errors in that belief, as well as the only thing they can do that may have any effect even remotely connected to their goal really was the purpose of the video.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Mesonak

[pocketmego]

Thanks for making a topic about this! While I did not make the video in question, I manage and create content for the group channel on which it is hosted. :P

Your points are very valid, Aanchir. It's my belief that the intent of the video was not to inspire a false sense of control but rather, as you said, show people all we can really do to make a difference. Money speaks, and all that. The BIONICLE youtube community (as well as BZP, to some extent) is filled with people that seem to think that boycotting Hero Factory will help them achieve their end goal of reviving the BIONICLE brand. Communicating to them the errors in that belief, as well as the only thing they can do that may have any effect even remotely connected to their goal really was the purpose of the video.

I am subbed to 3 virtues on YouTube, and I have to say Bionicle Autopsy is the e very best of the channel's content. No offense to anyone else...it just is.

Unfortunately, I doubt it will make a difference. Bionicle's 10 year life is part of the issue. It defined childhoods in the way Transformers and GI Joe did in the 80s. It created a loyalty in some people that will never die. And for many people (especially in geek culture) that means they will except NO substitute. Even if doing so would actually help the cause. But, we should never give up the fight I suppose.

[Mesonak]

I am subbed to 3 virtues on YouTube, and I have to say Bionicle Autopsy is the e very best of the channel's content. No offense to anyone else...it just is.

Unfortunately, I doubt it will make a difference. Bionicle's 10 year life is part of the issue. It defined childhoods in the way Transformers and GI Joe did in the 80s. It created a loyalty in some people that will never die. And for many people (especially in geek culture) that means they will except NO substitute. Even if doing so would actually help the cause. But, we should never give up the fight I suppose.

Hah, cool to see you think so. We try and make entertaining podcasts and other assorted videos but they sometimes run long, and that can turn some people away. Var puts a lot of work into trying to make the Autopsy videos high quality while also being concise and to the point.

You're right about that. It's a pretty uphill battle with the large part of the community, because they have such a strong brand loyalty to BIONICLE they feel that giving their money to its successor would be a betrayal. It's up to the individual people whether they accept the contrasting viewpoint to that, but hey, that's life. :P

[Infernum]

It defined childhoods

It did mine!

[DraikNova]

I think the show is well-thought-out and addresses a lot of issues within the Bionicle-HF community. Unlike a lot of similar shows, it's getting noticed and calming down a significant amount of HF-haters. Since the show started up, I've actually seen a significant decline in the number of trolly or spammy comments on youtube regarding HF.

Edited May 31, 2013 by DraikNova

[Mesonak]

I think the show is well-thought-out and addresses a lot of issues within the Bionicle-HF community. Unlike a lot of similar shows, it's getting noticed and calming down a significant amount of HF-haters. Since the show started up, I've actually seen a significant decline in the number of trolly or spammy comments on youtube regarding HF.

If that's the case, then I guess we're doing something right. I wouldn't think we'd be big enough on youtube to affect the majority of the community and their feelings towards HF, but if we are, hey, that's great. :P

[ZORK64]

It's an interesting video, but all in all, I can totally agree with Aanchir here.

The issue with the die-hard and super-serious Bionicle fandom reminds me of similiar things the older members of the Transformers fandom and the My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic bronies went (or still going) through. They need to realize that they are not necessarily the target demographic of said franchises.

In a similiar vein, I can say that actually fell into the category of the "casual fans" when it comes to Bionicle (and still Hero Factory, though I might be too old to be still considered part of the target demographic) - I knew there's some sort of story going on that explains why these guys are fighting those other guys (in addition to the "good vs. evil" thing) and who these guys are and so on... but yeah, I didn't care that much, because I'm in for the building experience. Of course, that's also the reason why it doesn't bothered me that much, that Bionicle was succeeded by Hero Factory.

Because of that, I'd like to ask a few things regarding the end of Bionicle:

- Was the end of the franchise really that sudden?

- Is there any information that Bionicle actually would have continued with a new story line if TLG would'nt had ended it?

- Had the authors of the franchise enough time left to wrap all ongoing story lines nicely up?

Another thing that just pops up in my mind... if TLG decides to bring Bionicle back, I wouldn't be surprised if it would be altered or retooled to make it more attractive for their target audience, which might mean that the story wouldn't be as nearly as complex as it was back then. Alongside with the fact that the toys would most likely differ in some way or other from the older toys, the old fans would most likely complain anyway and might start crying that Bionicle is now ruined FOREVER.

[Aanchir]

Because of that, I'd like to ask a few things regarding the end of Bionicle:

- Was the end of the franchise really that sudden?

- Is there any information that Bionicle actually would have continued with a new story line if TLG would'nt had ended it?

- Had the authors of the franchise enough time left to wrap all ongoing story lines nicely up?

Well, in the case of the first question, I don't think it was. Hero Factory was in development for at least a year, like any other theme, and I believe it was well-understood that BIONICLE would eventually need to be replaced with something new. The decision to end it was somewhat abrupt, though, in the sense that most people seemed to think it still had at least a few years left in it.

To the second question, there is evidence that BIONICLE would have continued with a new storyline if it hadn't ended. Originally the final battle between Mata Nui and Makuta would have been later and the 2010 story arc would have dealt with the Element Lords and the journey to the Valley of the Maze, the former of which were eventually only dealt with in flashbacks and the latter of which was compressed into the beginning of 2010. Greg Farshtey posted the screen treatment for the planned fifth BIONICLE movie on his BZPower blog.

And to the third, yes and no. The main storyline (the story told in the books and comics) was wrapped up fairly conclusively. However, there were plot threads left dangling in the online serials, which was not helped by the decision to continue the online serials beyond the end of the main story with brand new (and confusing) storylines. This is part of why a lot of people are upset about the recent decision to delete BIONICLEstory.com within the next few weeks. Although the serials had not been updated in over a year, a lot of people were still hoping for the serials to update again, at least in the name of providing closure.

Another thing that just pops up in my mind... if TLG decides to bring Bionicle back, I wouldn't be surprised if it would be altered or retooled to make it more attractive for their target audience, which might mean that the story wouldn't be as nearly as complex as it was back then. Alongside with the fact that the toys would most likely differ in some way or other from the older toys, the old fans would most likely complain anyway and might start crying that Bionicle is now ruined FOREVER.

I agree with you here. In the very least a lot of the details BIONICLE accumulated over the years would be reduced in importance. For instance, some people feel BIONICLE should continue where it left off, with the Agori, Matoran, Toa, and Glatorian living together on the same planet. However, this would be a LOT of species for kids who had never heard of BIONICLE before to learn, especially considering that each has its own unique biology and societal role. Understanding the Matoran life cycle is in and of itself a real burden. Thus, I feel the best way for BIONICLE to continue would be either a complete reboot or a continuation of the story from some point in the future where the characters and events of the previous story are merely the backstory of new adventures, and are only referenced if they become relevant (kind of like how The Legend of Korra relates to Avatar: The Last Airbender).

As far as the toys are concerned, I have no doubt that they would use the Hero Factory building system or some further evolution of that building system. The building system and part designs of BIONICLE were good for their time, but there are a lot of features that are simply inferior to Hero Factory's way of doing things: for instance, the fact that lower limb beams were highly-detailed themselves rather than just structural elements decorated with armor shells, or the way that certain armor pieces had incredibly specialized details (Vastus's shoulder armor is probably the most triumphant example), or the way that limb beams were constrained to a very limited number of sizes.

[Chro]

... a continuation of the story from some point in the future where the characters and events of the previous story are merely the backstory of new adventures, and are only referenced if they become relevant (kind of like how The Legend of Korra relates to Avatar: The Last Airbender).

I definitely agree that that'd be the best way to do it... I think that if it were revived, then this could appropriately include some aspects of the old story, while keeping it in a new window, so to speak (which is not to say that the old story would be mostly discarded, just put in the background).

[ZORK64]

Thank you for your answers Aanchir.

Well, learning that there was in fact still room for another storyline, I partly understand the reaction of the fandom towards Hero Factory. It's always a let-down if a series you like gets a rather abrupt ending and get then replaced with something different (regardless of the quality of the replacement).

The idea that a possible Bionicle reboot makes occasionally nods to it's past incarnation is surely an idea that would work great (and might helps the series to get accepted by older fans as well). Franchises like Transformers or The Legend of Zelda do this kind of stuff all the time, and LEGO also made already callbacks to older themes as well (like the space villian mini figure). Speaking of this, I'd appreciate some sort of shout-out to the good old Slizers/Throwbots some day. After all, they were LEGO's first Constraction series.

[Aanchir]

Thank you for your answers Aanchir.

Well, learning that there was in fact still room for another storyline, I partly understand the reaction of the fandom towards Hero Factory. It's always a let-down if a series you like gets a rather abrupt ending and get then replaced with something different (regardless of the quality of the replacement).

The idea that a possible Bionicle reboot makes occasionally nods to it's past incarnation is surely an idea that would work great (and might helps the series to get accepted by older fans as well). Franchises like Transformers or The Legend of Zelda do this kind of stuff all the time, and LEGO also made already callbacks to older themes as well (like the space villian mini figure). Speaking of this, I'd appreciate some sort of shout-out to the good old Slizers/Throwbots some day. After all, they were LEGO's first Constraction series.

"SLIZER" was used as a password in one cutscene from the "Mission: Savage Planet" online game. That's the most direct shout-out there's been to my knowledge. Slizer was also the name of a character in Space Police III, though that may be just another instance of using a name that's already cleared legal (just like the use of "Alpha Team" in Hero Factory, or the theme name "Exo-Force" which was previously one of the racing teams in the Drome series of LEGO Racers).

Edited June 2, 2013 by Aanchir

[pocketmego]

Timing on a Bionicle re-boot seems such an issue. Wait to long and there would be no real reason to re-boot it at all. Do it too soon and people will do nothing but compare it.

I'm not for continuing where it left off, actually. The mystery and fun of the original Bionicle toys and story were to see where it was going. I'd be much more about Star Trek style reboot. Retell the story in a fresh new way. Old fans will look in to see what's different and new fans will be experiencing it all fresh. This would also justify new building systems for the toys...etc.

Although, I think Lego might be headed to severe BURNOUT with HF. If HF has a ready made concept for selling freshly made characters, they should consider a yearly storyline with a roster change every year. The concept is SO CLOSE to Japanese Super Sentai shows anyway, they might as well just follow that formula and be done with it. New Villains and fresh NEW heroes every year.

[Aanchir]

Timing on a Bionicle re-boot seems such an issue. Wait to long and there would be no real reason to re-boot it at all. Do it too soon and people will do nothing but compare it.

I'm not for continuing where it left off, actually. The mystery and fun of the original Bionicle toys and story were to see where it was going. I'd be much more about Star Trek style reboot. Retell the story in a fresh new way. Old fans will look in to see what's different and new fans will be experiencing it all fresh. This would also justify new building systems for the toys...etc.

Although, I think Lego might be headed to severe BURNOUT with HF. If HF has a ready made concept for selling freshly made characters, they should consider a yearly storyline with a roster change every year. The concept is SO CLOSE to Japanese Super Sentai shows anyway, they might as well just follow that formula and be done with it. New Villains and fresh NEW heroes every year.

New heroes every year could be kind of cool, but the main reason I'm not keen on the idea is we get so little character development each year. And if we only get to see the characters develop in small ways with each new wave, I want to spend as much time with them as possible.

If Hero Factory had its own full TV series, then it would probably be a lot easier for the characters to get consistent character development, and thus easier to switch out the roster each year, though of course then we might have the opposite problem: people would become attached to them very quickly and become disgruntled if the team they were following abruptly disappeared into the background.

[pocketmego]

New heroes every year could be kind of cool, but the main reason I'm not keen on the idea is we get so little character development each year. And if we only get to see the characters develop in small ways with each new wave, I want to spend as much time with them as possible.

If Hero Factory had its own full TV series, then it would probably be a lot easier for the characters to get consistent character development, and thus easier to switch out the roster each year, though of course then we might have the opposite problem: people would become attached to them very quickly and become disgruntled if the team they were following abruptly disappeared into the background.

I guess you're right. But, to be honest. It's been a mini-series and 4 or 5 20 minute movies and I am already dead sick of some of these people.

[dviddy]

Because of that, I'd like to ask a few things regarding the end of Bionicle:

- Was the end of the franchise really that sudden?

- Is there any information that Bionicle actually would have continued with a new story line if TLG would'nt had ended it?

- Had the authors of the franchise enough time left to wrap all ongoing story lines nicely up?

The decision to cancel BIONICLE in 2010 was sort of abrupt, yes, as there were two more movies planned for the series to be relased each year. 2011, however, was the original end-date from the several LEGO reps I've talked to. And in a way, yes, HF killed BIONICLE, as the community team and a few of the designers from other themes have said that the BIONICLE set designers were more excited about the HF system, and wanted to do something different instead of the same BIONICLE stuff they'd been doing. In the end, they beat the story team in the debate over BIONICLE's cancelation.

[DraikNova]

I guess you're right. But, to be honest. It's been a mini-series and 4 or 5 20 minute movies and I am already dead sick of some of these people.

I have to agree with Aanchir; the only way we're going to get any (significant) character development is if it becomes a fully fledged show. Sadly, after the introductory series, it's shown no signs of having more than one episode per story. Here's hoping that changes soon.

[ZORK64]

Actually, I think a TV show could work already pretty good.

Hero Factory has already everything a fun and entertaining show needs:

- A group of nine heroes, all of them with different personalities.

- The basic premise (which is easy to understand) of the toyline could also work easily in a TV show

- The themes for the past two years (Breakout, Brain Attack) could be easily altered to become the plot for a whole season.

- A large and colourful assortment of bad guys.

- And last but not least, an easily understandable reason why the heroes can (and must) change/update their appearance and equipment from time to time.

With a TV show, we could get a lot more character development, deeper and more interesting story arcs, and of course, much more fun and action than with the short films we get now.

And yes, I got most of this stuff by just looking at Transformers Prime as a whole again.

[Zachattacx]

Actually, I think a TV show could work already pretty good.

Hero Factory has already everything a fun and entertaining show needs:

- A group of nine heroes, all of them with different personalities.

- The basic premise (which is easy to understand) of the toyline could also work easily in a TV show

- The themes for the past two years (Breakout, Brain Attack) could be easily altered to become the plot for a whole season.

- A large and colourful assortment of bad guys.

- And last but not least, an easily understandable reason why the heroes can (and must) change/update their appearance and equipment from time to time.

With a TV show, we could get a lot more character development, deeper and more interesting story arcs, and of course, much more fun and action than with the short films we get now.

And yes, I got most of this stuff by just looking at Transformers Prime as a whole again.

It does work,but HF is a one theme type of thing in which there is one mission per episode.This fits with the sets being released at the time of the episode,and honestly what can they do without the one theme villains.Maybe continue the episode a little further so we don't have cliffhangers and they are all covered.

Maybe for the next wave they could make a series giving development to characters and plot for that certain wave.Think Ninjago

IMO Lego designed it to be what it is.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Zachattacx

[ZORK64]

They could easily split the mission (or theme) of the current wave into a longer story arc for a proper TV series. Take a look at Breakout, for example: The villians and the heroes were obviously paired against each other, and it wouldn't be that hard making for each of these fights a single episode, if it were a TV series.

But I guess we should shift that into the other topic.