johnsocal Posted February 3, 2007 Posted February 3, 2007 Building a Future - One Parents Concern As a parent LEGO Quote
Shine Posted February 3, 2007 Posted February 3, 2007 I've seen lots of topics like this on other sites, and quite frankly they're beginning to annoy me. First of all, whatever your childhood memories of Lego may entail you've got to grow up and except that all companies are out to make a profit, not enrich children's minds. That being said- Lego will produce whatever themes they deem profitable, and as you stated in your post- Ironically as technology becomes cheaper and processors become faster and more intelligent, it has actually made these devices easier to use to the point that young children can now use them effortlessly. These devices point children towards more mature themes, meaning that in order for a toy to even register on their "cooldar" said toy must be similar to the media that they receive off of the technology. Have you ever seen a movie in which the humans are allied with the aliens immediately, if ever? In most movies there is some sort of conflict between two different parties, the difference can be race, religious beliefs, government, or something other. The difference leads up to what children interpret as "good" and "evil". Now think about Mars Mission, the two parties differ in race, skin color, and shape, forcing the children to associate the group closer to them as "good". This then creates a conflict which may be similar to the ones that they are exposed to on television and the internet, making them affiliate these toys, where there is a conflict with the technology that they already find captivating. Since children like this kind of toy, companies will keep producing them in order to make money. The only thing that will negate this cycle is the media changing, which it won't for some some yet. Quote
EXO-CHAMP Posted February 3, 2007 Posted February 3, 2007 I would say that LEGO licenced themes are the least creative of the LEGO lines. They are mere dublications of excisting movies, cartoons, and video games. Funny that you pick a licenced theme as your favorite, when you advocate more creativity... Quote
TroyTMoore Posted February 3, 2007 Posted February 3, 2007 @Shine & EXO-CHAMP Do either of you have children over the age of 4? Trust me the world becomes different when you see the detrimental effects on your children of an entertainment industry without a moral compass. Really, society in general is lowering the standards of morality every generation. Kids grow up too fast. I reallly don't think sex ed should have to be taught in grasde 5....but because the kids that age, unless the parents take steps to limit exposure in those early years, will know more than many gen Xers did when they were 15, it is necessary to prevent harm as a result of ignorance. Too little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially if developmentally your frontal lobes have not matured (reasoning, logic, awareness of consequences) OK, OK, LEGO wants to make money. However they have for years promoted themselves as a toy company that promotes imagination and creativity. In the ruthless toy business, LEGO strayed and tried to take their product and make it fit in with action fig companies etc. SW LEGO is popular because SW is popular. But LEGO is popular in it's own right, but in straying from it's idealistic position has suffered financially. Licenses cost money and I think that the SW license is the only one that has really made money for LEGO. I think LEGO realizes gimmicks don't work (LULS anyone?) Many of us have seen the changes in the last couple of years and appreciate the direction LEGO is going. The dawning of a new age of "Just imagine...." is upon us. I agree with you John on many points, but the ownice (sp?) lies on the parents to guide their children. I don't think LEGO should be educating parents, they have to be consistently appealing on the shelf in the store (prices and appearance) and customers (parents and children) will respond positively. LEGO, in it's basic form is a tool to promote spatial relations, roleplay, problem solving and relative limitless expression of imagination. BTW, my 2 children do not have a video game console. We have some PC games, RTS mostly. I like gaming, and even vegging out watching a movie. I do however promote LEGO in my house because I want my children to learn to think in abstract ways. MOC on!! Quote
blueandwhite Posted February 3, 2007 Posted February 3, 2007 I would say that LEGO licenced themes are the least creative of the LEGO lines.They are mere dublications of excisting movies, cartoons, and video games. Funny that you pick a licenced theme as your favorite, when you advocate more creativity... Well, the licenced themes do seem to benefit from better set design. Moreover, the only real creativity that comes into play with LEGO is the creativity infused when MOCing. Following instructions to build a pre-determined model isn't exactly creative to begin with. Licenced themes like Star Wars and Batman have featured a veritible wealth of unique and useful bricks. Just because there is a licence or tie-in doesn't mean the line is devoid of creativity. Ultimately, creativity has more to do with the builder than it does with the theme. Its not as if building an Exo Force robot or a KKII castle is somehow more creative than MOCing with Harry Potter or Star Wars sets. It all comes down to how somebody uses their bricks. Do you mean to tell me that somebody that uses their bricks to MOC an existing building or vehicle (like a Astin Martin for example) is somehow less creative than putting together a random fictional vehicle? Personally I feel this line of thinking is absurd. Making a MOC that looks like an accurate representation of something else requires both talent and creativity on the part of the builder. It is something I personally wish I could do better. Quote
Norro Posted February 3, 2007 Posted February 3, 2007 Ultimately, creativity has more to do with the builder than it does with the theme. True, but when you are building a creator house or old school lego set a lot of kids' next thought is building furniture/something to go with it... It could be argued that SW/liscenses work more along the lines of "now I have an x wing, I guess I'll have to wait till lego makes a tie..." God Bless, Nathan (who thinks lego just exemplifies far larger trends and that you can't adequately compare the different age ranges response to lego stimulus as other cultural influences have changed so dramatically...) Quote
blueandwhite Posted February 3, 2007 Posted February 3, 2007 True, but when you are building a creator house or old school lego set a lot of kids' next thought is building furniture/something to go with it... It could be argued that SW/liscenses work more along the lines of "now I have an x wing, I guess I'll have to wait till lego makes a tie..." God Bless, Nathan (who thinks lego just exemplifies far larger trends and that you can't adequately compare the different age ranges response to lego stimulus as other cultural influences have changed so dramatically...) I don't buy that for a second. The child who buys one Star Wars set, only to wait for the next one is also the child who would never think of building anything to go with his or her "old school" stuff to begin with. Even among adult fans, there are alot of set collectors who put very little thought into MOCing. The same child who thinks 'what next' doesn't suddenly lose his spark because the words Star Wars is on the box. Quote
Norro Posted February 3, 2007 Posted February 3, 2007 The same child who thinks 'what next' doesn't suddenly lose his spark because the words Star Wars is on the box. No... I don't think it is the same child (probably a lack of clarity on my part). I think it is a different consumer who buys the licenses... Nathan Quote
johnsocal Posted February 3, 2007 Author Posted February 3, 2007 Troy, Thanks for your contribution to the thread. There is no doubt in my mind that those who have kids of their own and those teenagers or adults without kids often (more times than not) have two seperate views of the the world and entertainment. This morning my youngest child wanted to build dinosaurs out of his generic Duplo blocks and wanted nothing to do with his ready-made dinosaur toys he got for Christmas from relatives. Quote
EXO-CHAMP Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 @Shine & EXO-CHAMP Do either of you have children over the age of 4? Yes I do. I have a 6 year old step-son. I never questioned the effects of media and money on children. I merely stated that when chosing LEGO Licenced themes compared to other LEGO products you're already taking a step in the direction you were fleeing from. Standards are good. Are double standards even better? BTW: I'm a school teacher and constantly in contact with children of the age you are referring to, and from my observations Mr. Norro is spot on with his description... Quote
johnsocal Posted February 4, 2007 Author Posted February 4, 2007 I merely stated that when chosing LEGO Licenced themes compared to other LEGO products you're already taking a step in the direction you were fleeing from. I only was pointing out the positive qualities of the SW's license that helped attract me back to LEGO after a few decades. After LEGO SW's helped suck me back in, my eyes were open to all the options and possibilities that LEGO has to offer. My point was for LEGO to offer a true alternative SPACE theme that provided a 'positive view of the future' and doesn't rely on warfare since SW's just does the whole SPACE WAR thing better. SW's is an established brand and tons of characters and multiple storyline arcs and is a great place to start for people who haven't created their own 'pretend' universe to play within or just don't want too. It doesn't make since for LEGO to have two competing 'space war' themes since they should be truly unique from each other. Quote
EXO-CHAMP Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 Your statement actually proves that there's plenty of room for a conflict LEGO space themes other than SW. A theme where the user can make up his own universe and be creative, where SW is the opposite (fixed story-line, universe etc). Wether LEGO should do this or that. Well. The money (focus groups) will decide... LEGO's top 3 sellers are (I've heard): Bionicle SW Exo-Force All conflict oriented. When LEGO originally was very anti-violence that was also a business strategy. Parents wanted to protect their children from violent toys. Times has changed. LEGO must too in order to survive. It's really that simple... Like it/don't like it. That's another matter... Quote
johnsocal Posted February 4, 2007 Author Posted February 4, 2007 Your statement actually proves that there's plenty of room for a conflict LEGO space themes other than SW. It doesn't A theme where the user can make up his own universe and be creative, where SW is the opposite (fixed story-line, universe etc). True, but Humans Vs Martians is hardly creative or new. Wether LEGO should do this or that. Well. The money (focus groups) will decide... True, but LEGO should do a focus group with parents as well their kids. LEGO's top 3 sellers are (I've heard):Bionicle SW Exo-Force All conflict oriented. No argument here. When LEGO originally was very anti-violence that was also a business strategy. Parents wanted to protect their children from violent toys. Parents still want to protect their kids from violence, and now that parents will have even more control over the shows their kids watch it's more important then ever for toy companies to listen to parents 'more'. Im not against conflict, but LEGO has plenty of themes that are now conflict oriented and SW's now has proper guns. Times has changed. LEGO must too in order to survive. It's really that simple... I agree. My point is there is a shift back to the parents dictating what toys the child buys or wants since they're now able to prevent advertisers from reaching their kids by using tivo's/dvr's and etc. Like it/don't like it. That's another matter... I don't like it, and that's just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Quote
Starwars4J Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 True, but Humans Vs Martians is hardly creative or new. There isn't really much these days that is incredibly imaginative or new. Even the most renown stories are basically the same old stories retold with slight details changed. True, but LEGO should do a focus group with parents as well their kids. It's my understanding that parents are a part. Not to mention the surveys that go out, the Ambassador program, contact with the AFOL community, etc. Many AFOLs are parents, I'm sure these complaints don't go completely unnoticed (if there are even that many in the first place).= Parents still want to protect their kids from violence, and now that parents will have even more control over the shows their kids watch it's more important then ever for toy companies to listen to parents 'more'. They do? Parents seem to be giving less and less of a damn about what their kids do. Sure, there are still plenty of good parents out there, but sadly there are far more that don't get involved in their childrens lives, and just buy them whatever to get them to shut up (this is a pet peeve of mine). Im not against conflict, but LEGO has plenty of themes that are now conflict oriented and they now SW's has proper guns. So you're saying the mold guns are bad? What's the difference? The kids knew the "megaphone guns" still shot out deadly lasers that could burn a hole right through someone's chest. This just looks better to please the AFOL community that is more concerned with accuracy than children are. I'm sure they don't care/notice one way or the other. I agree. My point is there is a shift back to the parents dictating what toys the child buys or wants since they're now able to prevent advertisers from reaching their kids by using tivo's/dvr's and etc.I don't like it, and that's just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. There most certainly is not. Kids do more and more without their parents. Going online with their credit card (with permission) is not all that uncommon. What they see on TV is very uncontrolled, and of course they can see anything on the internet. Tivo/DVR is great...for catching shows you missed. For parental controls...it goes largely unused on almost any service. It's mainly included to appease parents, though they don't usually use it. Maybe you do, and that's great, though most really don't. See, I can do the quoting thing too :-P But really, I think there would be nothing wrong with them making a castle line without specific conflict. Though it always existed (Blacktron vs. everyone, Wolfpack vs. Royal knights, etc.), violence was always implied instead of out in the open. They were just sneakier about it, and maybe that's the way it should be. Though I've grown up, and so enjoy the way the stories have "matured" with me (though some would argue that it's less mature, but not the point). Then again, I'm not the target audience ;-) Quote
johnsocal Posted February 4, 2007 Author Posted February 4, 2007 So you're saying the mold guns are bad? What's the difference? The kids knew the "megaphone guns" still shot out deadly lasers that could burn a hole right through someone's chest. This just looks better to please the AFOL community that is more concerned with accuracy than children are. I'm sure they don't care/notice one way or the other. I actually really like the new guns and have no problem with them whatsoever. I think there would be nothing wrong with them making a castle line without specific conflict. I wouldn't want LEGO to get rid of Castle battle sets at all, but it would really be cool if they created a theme called LEGO CASTLE TOWN that's centered around non-battle town themes of that time period. These would be great backdrops and offer cool new scenerios to Knights to battle in as well if one so chooses. Either a 'Castle Town' or 'Space City' would compliment sets that are centered around conflict while those two Town/city sets would be based around civilain life in the past or the future.. Quote
blueandwhite Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 No... I don't think it is the same child (probably a lack of clarity on my part). I think it is a different consumer who buys the licenses...Nathan Quite possibly. Personally, I suspect the majority of set collectors are in fact Star Wars obsessed adults. In my experience, most kids just can't keep any set (Star Wars or not) in one piece. The ones who like to build end up trying something different, whereas the others just leave the pieces in a bucket off in some corner. I don't think this is any different than it was when I was a child. LEGO's play value has changed considerably, with a low-point being in the late 90s (what many AFOLs refer to as their "dark age"). One-dimensional sets with little or no replay value have been around for a long time. The funny thing was, the Star Wars sets, in order to remain true to the original licenced material, ended up being far more complex than anything else LEGO was doing at the time. Ironically, it was these sets that brought me out of my dark ages. At the time, most of LEGO's products were giving Duplo a run for its money when it came to complexity. Even today, SW sets remain more complex than most of the other lines. Only the Creator line, and some of the City sets are comprable. KKII and Exo-Force, while popular with kids, are incredibly simple. I honestly believe that without the likes of Star Wars and other licences, LEGO would have gone under a few years back. I don't purchase the SW sets, but I do recognize their superior quality when compared to alot of LEGO's other lines. People can knock the SW line as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that these sets remain some of the best LEGO has ever produced. Quote
Asuka Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 I wouldn't want LEGO to get rid of Castle battle sets at all, but it would really be cool if they created a theme called LEGO CASTLE TOWN that's centered around non-battle town themes of that time period. These would be great backdrops and offer cool new scenerios to Knights to battle in as well if one so chooses. Either a 'Castle Town' or 'Space City' would compliment sets that are centered around conflict while those two Town/city sets would be based around civilain life in the past or the future.. Creativity is up to the kids, and LEGO luckily provides bricks and parts for MOCing in every set beside watches and playswords and stuff like that. And I love how those unprotected cockpits of the Exo-Force mechas provoked me to MOD. That Quote
johnsocal Posted February 5, 2007 Author Posted February 5, 2007 I just want to add that the toys that kids (as well as their parents) play with in many ways reflects the values and future of a society. If parents think the future will be related to operating computers then it should be surprised to see parents push their kids towards Quote
M'Kyuun Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 BlueandWhite and Asuka, great posts! While a little conflict, imposed or overt, can add excitement to a set, I don't think it should be the primary drive of every set within a conflict-based theme. A family cabin, or a blacksmith shop, or a boatbuilder's shop would add color and character to the Castle or Viking themes and break up the monotony of minifigs vs the creatures/enemy figs inherent in every set thus far. Generally, I don't mind conflict, as it can certainly inspire play. I think it's hard-wired into the human psyche to seek out conflict, or to create it, in play, in relationships, or in work. All forms of media dish it out consistently, and they prosper because people are drawn to it. Anyway, as a fellow who loves a good shooter or strategy game with lots of gore and a high death toll, and who wished long and hard with little expectation for Star Wars and mecha themes from TLC, even I have reached a point where I would honestly like to see a few sets in each of the conflict based themes that involve non-combat. Star Wars could feature the Larrs vaporator farm, or a med bay w/ droid, or an Ewok tree village(much as I despise the cutesy things). The Castle and Viking themes really cry out for medieval town sets. Exo-Force could stand to have a specialized maintenance droid, a large mech carrier, an all-purpose base similar to the Polar Base (#6575) with various specialized rooms, or even a repair bay for the robots(replacement arms and legs hanging on the walls, little welding torches, etc). In short, I understand the direction Lego has taken, as they are doing their best to appeal to their target consumer, kids...not us crusty middle-aged folks. However, I also think they are doing themselves, and kids,(and us :-P ) a disservice by not making sets within the various themes that offer an alternative to combat, conflict, whatever. That said, bring on the '07 City sets...and play well! M'Kyuun Quote
Hobbes Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 P.S.: And, for the love of life, could you, dear LEGO company, tell me why you wrote on some of your boxes, like happened with 7242 Street Sweeper, 2005, and others? Isn Quote
Asuka Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 Anyway, as a fellow who loves a good shooter or strategy game with lots of gore and a high death toll, and who wished long and hard with little expectation for Star Wars and mecha themes from TLC, even I have reached a point where I would honestly like to see a few sets in each of the conflict based themes that involve non-combat. Star Wars could feature the Larrs vaporator farm, or a med bay w/ droid, or an Ewok tree village(much as I despise the cutesy things). M'Kyuun Well.... I Quote
johnsocal Posted February 5, 2007 Author Posted February 5, 2007 Personally I would prefera better mixing within sets Mixing some civilian activities within battle centric sets could offer a realistic compromise. Quote
Zaktan of the Shadows Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 Well said. My mom and Dad say LEGO is better than video games to me too. even though I enjoy video games, I like LEGO better. BTW, ever get the feeling you're getting watched? 8-| -ZotS Quote
Asuka Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 BTW, ever get the feeling you're getting watched? 8-| -ZotS (off-topic, hush....) 8- Quote
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