Switching from 12V system to 9V system

[AlmightyArjen]

A while ago I got my first 9V set: 4555 cargo station. And that was the first time I got to hold 9V tracks and the tracks looked really solid to me. I have a lot of 12V tracks laying around and 6 or so trains. The problem with the 12V tracks is that they're getting old and taking it apart results in broken click systems (the little pins on the sleeper plates). I was thinking to keep a short track and two switches for nostalgic reasons. I don't have many remote controlled switches or other "extra stuff" that isn't available in the 9V system. Next to that: I'm handy with electronics so I can fix it myself if needed. Further: I don't have a fixed layout laying around: I don't have space for that. I'm choosing the old 9V system since I want it to be powered by a transformer: I hate batteries...

Pros:

- 9V more solid system, taking apart is easy

- trains run more smoothly

- I can sell the 12V tracks (the ones that are not broken) pretty easy on Bricklink (I want to keep the 12V motors though) and buy 9V tracks pretty easy too.

Cons:

- It's not all 12V anymore: maybe it loses it's charme

- No easy remote controlled switches and other extra stuff

What do you think about making a switch to keep my trains running for at least another 20 years?

[antp]

For easy building / taking apart of the tracks, you could use regular 2x8 plates as sleepers, like what was used with the old blue tracks. Last time I built a temporary 12V track I started to use the dark grey sleepers but when I thought that they would be hard to take apart a few hours later, I used the regular white plates for both grey & blue tracks.

[AlmightyArjen]

That's indeed a good option antp!

[Locomotive Annie]

And here's me busy with buying 12volt track and wanting to retro-convert everything back to 12 volts. With the grey track sleepers and their clips I'm mainly going to use those as wagon loads for a MOW train as I want to use regular 2x8 plates as sleepers instead. Mind you I'm going to be building a permanent layout so any older track parts should have an easy time of it as they won't be dismantled once in place.

I agree about using a transformer over batteries. I used battery power and RC for 'G' scale, but that was Ok because the locos have plenty of room for all the necessary bits and can be built to take the battery load with no problems. Having to try and jam PF or RC gubbins into the sort of small late period 19th Century locos I like to build for 'L' gauge would be putting myself into a hiding for nothing situation.

I did think about using the 9volt system, only it's a pain trying to make driving wheels also act as electrical pickups while trying to maintain traction. Mind you alainneke's pickup conversion here.... http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=79145 ......makes for an elegant solution to the problem which could help with enabling older 12volt locos to run on 9volt track. For the present though I will be staying with 12volt, but may try some experiments with metal railed track just to see what's possible.

An adapter for joining the older 12volt rails to 9volt track is available here btw http://www.shapeways...lego-rail3.html

[Konrad]

12v > 9v.

[bricks n bolts]

I've never owned any 9v, having 12v in the '80s then going into my dark ages, only emerging again at the start of the PF era.

For the moment I'm sticking with 12v but am using 9V wiring/conductive plate, PF track with 12v conductive rails and PF wheels with modified 12v pickups.

I do like 9v, preferring it over PF. If I started out with 9v I would probably stick to it, the problem is the same for both 9v and 12v - they are ageing systems which will only get more and more expensive on the second hand market.

Longer term, if reliable third party suppliers ever emerge for 9v such as BBB or MeModel that can supply all components then I would be tempted to switch. Contributions such as Alainneke's pickups help us reach that goal. Conversely if reliable and imaginative third party suppliers emerge for 12v there may be no point in switching....

[Locomotive Annie]

Unintended pun there, - 'no point in switching' ......

Having only just discovered the delights of the 12volt system I find myself wondering what I was doing back in the 1980s. Most probably doing something dopey like swooning around after boys. Yesterday a 12volt catalog from 1980 arrived in the post and finally I was able to see exactly what I'd missed out on. I shouldn't really complain as I've got two now adult children who are wonderful people, so I guess I was doing something important afterall during the 1980s.

Track is something I want to experiment with as I'm planning on building a layout that will occupy half of my large bedroom and I want to use larger radius curves than Lego's standard ones. That will mean devising some kind of clever custom build conductor rail for these sections. Having worked with 3 rail tinplate trains during my collector phase conductor rails don't scare me too much, but having two of them to deal with should make for some interesting experiments.

[alainneke]

  On 2/23/2013 at 9:25 PM, Locomotive Annie said:

Track is something I want to experiment with as I'm planning on building a layout that will occupy half of my large bedroom and I want to use larger radius curves than Lego's standard ones. That will mean devising some kind of clever custom build conductor rail for these sections. Having worked with 3 rail tinplate trains during my collector phase conductor rails don't scare me too much, but having two of them to deal with should make for some interesting experiments.

RailBricks 3 (page 20) has a nice article about joining 1-gauge tracks to LEGO sleepers. If you put them side-by-side on the two center studs of the sleepers, you'll have 12V style rails...

[Locomotive Annie]

  On 2/23/2013 at 9:42 PM, alainneke said:

RailBricks 3 (page 20) has a nice article about joining 1-gauge tracks to LEGO sleepers. If you put them side-by-side on the two center studs of the sleepers, you'll have 12V style rails...

Thank you for that suggestion alainneke, I shall definitely check that out.

[bricks n bolts]

lol, no point in switching but not at all pointless..

  On 2/23/2013 at 9:42 PM, alainneke said:

RailBricks 3 (page 20) has a nice article about joining 1-gauge tracks to LEGO sleepers. If you put them side-by-side on the two center studs of the sleepers, you'll have 12V style rails...

Also check out http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/Grunneger/Veendam2007/0012.jpg and http://users.erols.com/kennrice/flextrack.htm

[Locomotive Annie]

Hey great links bricks n bolts. The first one is particularly interesting because it tells me that I'm not nuts afterall because someone else has done it successfully before.

The guy who had the track building article in Railbricks also has a few extra interesting pictures on his Brickshelf page http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=319884

His long bridge to span a doorway is pretty amazing and caught my interest because I'm going to need at least two bridges on my own line.

[bricks n bolts]

  On 2/23/2013 at 11:18 PM, Locomotive Annie said:

Hey great links bricks n bolts. The first one is particularly interesting because it tells me that I'm not nuts afterall because someone else has done it successfully before.

The guy who had the track building article in Railbricks also has a few extra interesting pictures on his Brickshelf page http://www.brickshel...ry.cgi?f=319884

His long bridge to span a doorway is pretty amazing and caught my interest because I'm going to need at least two bridges on my own line.

Yep, it's all the same guy, the year after he made the custom 12v tracks he switched to making his own custom 9v track, got to love those points of his..(http://www.brickshel...y.cgi?i=3184301)

EDIT: the second link was someone different, from 2005, so it was his ideas that were expanded on

Edited February 23, 2013 by bricks n bolts

[Locomotive Annie]

Yes it was only after I had a look at the whole 12volt page http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=286975 that I realised it was the same guy. Those points he built are pretty amazing alright and have given me food for thought as I may need the occasional special point to get my railway to come together in the way that I want.

His 12volt layout is stunning though and has that whole integrated town, landscape and railway look that I want to achieve with my own line.

[zephyr1934]

  On 2/22/2013 at 6:05 AM, Locomotive Annie said:

And here's me busy with buying 12volt track and wanting to retro-convert everything back to 12 volts. With the grey track sleepers and their clips I'm mainly going to use those as wagon loads for a MOW train as I want to use regular 2x8 plates as sleepers instead. Mind you I'm going to be building a permanent layout so any older track parts should have an easy time of it as they won't be dismantled once in place.

I have heard that if you leave the 4.5v rails in the clips for a few months and then try to take them apart, the clips have a tendency to break. If so, using regular 2x8 plates is a better solution.

[AlmightyArjen]

I've finally decided to go definitely for the 9V tracks. I've bought a bunch and the trains run really smooth! The trains have less pulling power so for some locomotives it's necessary to use two motors, like on the 7755, what makes it a real work horse! I've made a video of my trains running on a 9V track:

[UrbanErwin]

That's looking good, the trains are running really smooth.

[pinioncorp]

My eyes must deceive me as I see no trains on the track there, just a coloured blur. Why so fast? High speed train I can understand, but the rest look disproportionately fast.

[AlmightyArjen]

  On 5/31/2013 at 4:42 PM, pinioncorp said:

My eyes must deceive me as I see no trains on the track there, just a coloured blur. Why so fast? High speed train I can understand, but the rest look disproportionately fast.

That's exactly what I thought! I checked everything: also the video settings of my camera and the video editing program and everything is as normal. While shooting the video I was already thinking that the trains were running quite fast. For the 7755 with the two motors I had to turn down the transformer a notch, otherwise it just derailed in the curves.

So assuming that the video is correct, why do the trains look disproportionately fast?

Is it because the 12V motors don't run that fast and we are not used to see "12 volt trains" move so fast?

Or is it because I left the heavy weights in the locomotives, what causes a higher pressure on the rails and so the electrical resistance between the rails and the wheels is smaller?

[Alasdair Ryan]

I think you are have turned up the speed just a little to fast......

Nice set up though.

[bricks n bolts]

  On 5/31/2013 at 5:12 PM, AlmightyArjen said:

So assuming that the video is correct, why do the trains look disproportionately fast?

Is it because the 12V motors don't run that fast and we are not used to see "12 volt trains" move so fast?

Or is it because I left the heavy weights in the locomotives, what causes a higher pressure on the rails and so the electrical resistance between the rails and the wheels is smaller?

Did you switch over to 9v/RC wheels on the wagons also? Can't tell from the video, they're just moving too fast....

[AlmightyArjen]

The 7740 uses the RC wheels since it had to pull lots of wagons. The 7727, which looks quite fast in the video has its own old style wheels... I had to know so I just ran a few tests:

1. the electrical resistance doesn't change if you use a full weight 12V locomotive or just the motor itself. When I pressed really hard on the motor, I could make a difference of 0.5 ohms, which is negligible.

2. the regulator output is a nice and stable 9,1 Volt

3. I've rebuilt a track with the same straight length. I first measured the time of one straight length (16 track sections) in the video with a stopwatch, which resulted in 2.1 seconds. Then I measured the time of my test track, which resulted in 1.9 seconds. The difference can be explained by the fact that the straight track in the video is more distant from the voltage regulator connection that it is in my test track.

Conclusion: the trains just go THAT fast... Looking at it, I had to turn down the speed of the cargo trains a bit while shooting the video. Good lesson for my next video

[LEGO Guy Bri]

Man do I miss the whine of the 9V! I've always wanted to see the older 12V converted

Edited June 1, 2013 by LEGO Guy Bri

[zephyr1934]

  On 5/31/2013 at 5:12 PM, AlmightyArjen said:

So assuming that the video is correct, why do the trains look disproportionately fast?

Is it because the 12V motors don't run that fast and we are not used to see "12 volt trains" move so fast?

Or is it because I left the heavy weights in the locomotives, what causes a higher pressure on the rails and so the electrical resistance between the rails and the wheels is smaller?

The 9v controller has about seven speeds in both directions, few 9v trains are able to stay on the track at full power unless they are very heavy. At the other end, if you go too slow, you risk stalling out at a dead spot (slow speeds is one spot where PF really shines).

As for better performance with the train weights, it is probably due to better adhesion/friction. Without the weight I think the 9v wheels spin a bit on the track.

[AlmightyArjen]

Indeed, the extra weight causes more friction. If you take off the weight (or take a original 9V train like the metroliner), the train has much more wheelspin when turning on the power suddenly. Disadvantage is the fact that slopes are harder to climb: the weight/friction relation is not linear: more weight doesn't mean more fiction and thus pulling power when going up :)

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

Nice video!