HMS St. Lawrence

[Admiral Starwind]

This beautifully built canadian ship is the target of my next MOC and as such i was wondering if anyone could be of help to provide me with some images beyond the few i've dug up here:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/images/mili...SStLawrence.jpg

http://www.tallshipcanada.homestead.com/fi...awrence_001.jpg

And for the Historical aspect:

British naval commander James Yeo commissioned the ship in the Kingston Royal Naval Dockyard in Kingston, Upper Canada. Master shipbuilder John Dennis and nearly 200 shipwrights built her in under 10 months, and she launched in 1814. The St. Lawrence's 112 guns on three decks qualified her as a first rate, larger than Lord Nelson's flagship HMS Victory at the Battle of Trafalgar nine years earlier. Her displacement was 2,300 tons, and she carried a crew of 1,000. In way of armaments she carried thirty-four 32lbs carronades and two 64lbs carronades on the top deck, thirty-four 24lbs long guns on the middle deck and thirty-four 32lbs long guns on the lower deck.

At the time, Lake Ontario was effectively landlocked for any but the smallest vessels, due to shallow water and rapids on the St. Lawrence River downstream and Niagara Falls upstream. As a result, warships operating on Lake Ontario had to be built onsite, either in Kingston or in the American naval dockyards at Sackets Harbor, or converted from merchant ships already operating in the lake.

Control of the lake -- the most important supply route for military operations to the west -- had passed back and forth between the Americans and the British over the course of the war. The construction of a first rate ship of the line, in a campaign that had been dominated by sloops and frigates, gave the British uncontested control of the lake during the final months of the war. HMS St. Lawrence never saw action, because her presence on the lake deterred the U.S. fleet from setting sail.

Ah yes the ship that made the Americans lay down their arms and say uncle.

[Aaron Morse]

I had no idea the British had a three decker on Lake Ontario...and I'm supposed to be Canadian...Sheesh I'm ashamed...ashamed I say! I shall henceforth refer to Admiral Starwind as "Admiral Knowitall" cause I though I was the know it all. I gotta go walk my own plank now.

This beautifully built canadian ship is the target of my next MOC and as such i was wondering if anyone could be of help to provide me with some images beyond the few i've dug up here:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/images/mili...SStLawrence.jpg

http://www.tallshipcanada.homestead.com/fi...awrence_001.jpg

And for the Historical aspect:

British naval commander James Yeo commissioned the ship in the Kingston Royal Naval Dockyard in Kingston, Upper Canada. Master shipbuilder John Dennis and nearly 200 shipwrights built her in under 10 months, and she launched in 1814. The St. Lawrence's 112 guns on three decks qualified her as a first rate, larger than Lord Nelson's flagship HMS Victory at the Battle of Trafalgar nine years earlier. Her displacement was 2,300 tons, and she carried a crew of 1,000. In way of armaments she carried thirty-four 32lbs carronades and two 64lbs carronades on the top deck, thirty-four 24lbs long guns on the middle deck and thirty-four 32lbs long guns on the lower deck.

At the time, Lake Ontario was effectively landlocked for any but the smallest vessels, due to shallow water and rapids on the St. Lawrence River downstream and Niagara Falls upstream. As a result, warships operating on Lake Ontario had to be built onsite, either in Kingston or in the American naval dockyards at Sackets Harbor, or converted from merchant ships already operating in the lake.

Control of the lake -- the most important supply route for military operations to the west -- had passed back and forth between the Americans and the British over the course of the war. The construction of a first rate ship of the line, in a campaign that had been dominated by sloops and frigates, gave the British uncontested control of the lake during the final months of the war. HMS St. Lawrence never saw action, because her presence on the lake deterred the U.S. fleet from setting sail.

Ah yes the ship that made the Americans lay down their arms and say uncle.

[SkaForHire]

Where did you get the snippit of history? americans did set sail, just very cautiously... but they were not out done , the war ended before they launched their two 100+ ships. The New Orleans (130) and the .... now i can't find the name again, its an obscure ship, and isnt talked about much because it was hauled off the stocks almost right after the war and broken up for timber... whereas the New Orleans sat at sackets harbor until 1880, then the foolish gov't sold her off, can you imagine that! that would be an awesome visit for any naval history fan if they would have kept her in a storehouse until the National historic register had been created... anyway.... crying for the loss of awesome history..... however at kingston the brits had two more ships similar to the St. Lawrence on the stocks, these were designed to cary more guns! a good book on ships of the great lakes is Robert Malcomson's Warships of the Great Lakes though it doesnt mention the second ship at sackets harbor (i found that in naval records though...) hes a little canadian in his flavor... but still an excellent read.

I can't find the article right now... which is a shame, but it talks about how the New Orleans and the other american ship of the line were to be used.... they were to sit at the mouth of the st. lawrence and clog up the possibility of the Royal Navy coming down.... (aparently there were canals being dug in canada at the time, that would allow ships the size of the HMS Victory to get into the lakes)

though i think if the brits would have gotten the other two ships of the line of the stocks by that time there would have been a pretty awesome battle betweeen the fleets eventually... (not that death and destruction are a good thing... but it can leave a nice "what if" taste in your mouth...)

Sadly the HMS St Lawrence had a terrible ending too... she sold for 25 pounds... and became someone's dock across kingston bay... :(

On the cover of the book i mentioned is a painting of the st lawrence, it is much different looking then the ones you have linked to i think... i will keep an eye out for anymore pictures.

EDIT: found it, the second american ship was the Chippiwa... now how many ships on the great lakes bore that name LOL....

oh yeah and if you can build the three deck St Lawrence with all 112 guns I would be amazed, but i think you will need to do it with a brick built hull. i hope you can do it though... can't wait to see what you come up with...

[Admiral Starwind]

Which bow do you think looks better for the St. Lawrence?

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...ips/stlbow1.jpg

or

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...ips/stlbow2.jpg

I dont intend the point of the bow to be yellow i just ade it yellow to stand out in the pictures.

Actually it will be fairly easy to build as the ship doesnt have a stern castle or an odd shaped bow the ship is actually designed like a lego hul do to the shallow water of the great lakes. I've actually had her mocc'ed up 2 times already in MLcad before i saw the model and change the design opne last time i hope.

[Admiral Starwind]

bump

[Jipay]

it will depend on the global shape of the boat. It's hard to say just by seing one part of the ship

[Berry Syedow]

Which bow do you think looks better for the St. Lawrence?

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...ips/stlbow1.jpg

or

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...ips/stlbow2.jpg

Neither of them really do it for me. I'd investigate a SNOTty solution. If I have to choose, I pick the first one.

[Admiral Starwind]

Well folks here is the first prototype of the hull i relize i have to kick the stern back more but i think this is pretty damned good and close to historical accounts.

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...nce__prot_1.jpg

[SkaForHire]

Well folks here is the first prototype of the hull i relize i have to kick the stern back more but i think this is pretty damned good and close to historical accounts.

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...nce__prot_1.jpg

guns will be small... but that can be expected with the price you would have to pay to out fit it....

looks good so far.... the roundness of the stearn strikes me as odd i will go back and look are paintings though...

[Admiral Starwind]

Well here's the latest progress on the St Lawrence there a few bugs i have to work out but u cant seem em X-D

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...nce_prot2-1.jpg

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...nce_prot2-2.jpg

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...nce_prot2-3.jpg

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...nce_prot2-4.jpg

A VERY VERY VERY rough idea of what the ship would look like rigged somewhat of course not including the side rigging.

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo.../riggin_pic.jpg

Please let me know what you think so far. *yoda*

[Admiral Starwind]

More rigging changes as i study the model that i have i realize that the lego versions mast will be tooooo short but there is nothing i can do realistically even if i used tons of bowsprits it would look like megablocks.

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...ips/riggin2.jpg

[Legeaux]

There's some very nice brick sculpting there, Admiral.

I must say I don't like the proportions of the gunport lids though, they seem a bit too tall - but I guess a 1x1 gunport lid, with hinge would be difficult to achieve.

(I guess halving the number of gunports and doubling the width of them would destroy the scale... have you considered unhinged gunports? (permanently closed... or perhaps permanently open, like the Lego Constitution?)

[Berry Syedow]

Please let me know what you think so far. *yoda*

For a prototype it's still a real beaut'. Keep up the quality work. :-)

[Admiral Starwind]

Many have asked how i plan to implement guns on the St Lawrence and said it would look rather odd with the size i have but i think the size is comparable to the scale and as such here is how i plan to do it and with my plan the guns will be able to be run out when needed and returned to their loading position if not needed.

This is also just a crosss section of the ship and the carriages wouldn't be done in white i only did them in white to make the details stand out.

Unloaded and ports closed:

Loaded and ports open ready to fire:

(now with using the notch hinge pieces for the ports like i've show here i can have the ports open straight out without worrying about them falling down)

These are Cannonades or short guns

These are the Long Guns

[Admiral Starwind]

Guns at rest:

RUN OUT THE GUNS!!!!:

[El Bucanero]

Wow that is great!!! the sterncastle looks a bit weird to me with those windows..if you get some more of them in there, it would look better :-)

[Admiral Starwind]

Unfortunately the way the stern is sculpted it cant happen trust me i fought with that F***er alot

[Berry Syedow]

RUN OUT THE GUNS!!!!:

Jiminy Crickets, that thing is huge! Excuse me for asking if you've already stated so, what is the relative mini-fig scale of this ship?

the roundness of the stearn strikes me as odd i will go back and look are paintings though...

Mr. Ska, what conclusion have you adopted?

[Admiral Starwind]

RUN OUT THE GUNS!!!!:

Jiminy Crickets, that thing is huge! Excuse me for asking if you've already stated so, what is the relative mini-fig scale of this ship?

the roundness of the stearn strikes me as odd i will go back and look are paintings though...

Mr. Ska, what conclusion have you adopted?

The scale i think you mean how many mid sections and what not?

it takes 8 8x16 mdi sections and is about 14 bricks high to the railing. She's a scary 1.2 meters in length due to the bowsprit and widow maker sail. And to the tips of her tallest mast...so far is just over half a meter high.

So hopefully that answers your question berry if not ask again and i'll try to answer it better.

And GRRR yes as i look at the stern castle it looks like megablocks now so i'll have to redo it at some point probably today or tommorow depending on how the day goes.

[Berry Syedow]

The scale i think you mean how many mid sections and what not?

it takes 8 8x16 mdi sections and is about 14 bricks high to the railing. She's a scary 1.2 meters in length due to the bowsprit and widow maker sail. And to the tips of her tallest mast...so far is just over half a meter high.

So hopefully that answers your question berry if not ask again and i'll try to answer it better.

Now that is frighteningly large! However I meant, scale, as in how large should it be to realistically house mini-figs? Sort of the LEGO version of "real world scale".

[Admiral Starwind]

DO you really want to know? lol well gimme a sec *grabs his calculator* well it would be about 10 - 11 mid sections long to accomodate the standard 2x2 gun port and cannons and the ship can house minifigs at this current time only the guns are scaled down.

[Berry Syedow]

DO you really want to know? lol well gimme a sec *grabs his calculator* well it would be about 10 - 11 mid sections long to accomodate the standard 2x2 gun port and cannons and the ship can house minifigs at this current time only the guns are scaled down.

Technically, yes, the ship could house mini-figs in this scaled down version. However, that would be like me living in a dog-house. ;-) 10-11 midsections, hmm... This would be quite the monstrosity if mini-fig scaled.

[Admiral Starwind]

Yup it would and the biggest problem that you run into is with the case of the St Lawrence all the pics i have found show you only part of the masts and doing some rudimentary trigonometry based on the shape of the rigging i can tell the lego masts would need to be widere and i would need about 2 middle section then 2 bow sprits and then two top sections to get the right height and where you cant do that the masts will always be too short unless i designed my own and based on what others have done i have yet to see a homemade mast desing yet that i like that looks good. The problem is the number and size of sails the ship had i mean this ship was HUGE plain and simple i would aslo need to make the ship wider which is where then you run into needing a brick built hull *sigh* like i said this is merly a prototype if i could figure out a way around the limits of the lego masts and hulls i could do the piece of canadian history justice.

[Berry Syedow]

Yup it would and the biggest problem that you run into is with the case of the St Lawrence all the pics i have found show you only part of the masts and doing some rudimentary trigonometry based on the shape of the rigging i can tell the lego masts would need to be widere and i would need about 2 middle section then 2 bow sprits and then two top sections to get the right height and where you cant do that the masts will always be too short unless i designed my own and based on what others have done i have yet to see a homemade mast desing yet that i like that looks good. The problem is the number and size of sails the ship had i mean this ship was HUGE plain and simple i would aslo need to make the ship wider which is where then you run into needing a brick built hull *sigh* like i said this is merly a prototype if i could figure out a way around the limits of the lego masts and hulls i could do the piece of canadian history justice.

Exactly how much wider would the masts need to be? As for lengthening them, 2x2 rounds are a good substitute. I like what this LEGO designer did, here for the masts: http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/Junie/le...06/p1050756.jpg

[Admiral Starwind]

It look interesting but at the same time looks very fragile and i like to play with my legos from time to time or take them dwon from the shelf to show someone. As for how wide, porbably twice the width of mast base section at the base and working up getting smaller.

Although i understand what you were saying abotu the sclae lemme show you something.

Meet Bob:

Now see bob on ship:

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/toyotawo...s/bobonship.jpg you have to click on this one as its too big to post in a thread.

As you can see the scale isnt all that far off.