Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[Flipz]

For those looking for a more poetic way of describing colors (or in my case, creating Brickdoctorian Artifact names ).

[Endgame]

It is now your duty to make a massive rat battle, with a rat of every color on that list.

[Flipz]

C'mon, you KNOW EllariMor would just kill them all just in time for Althior to raise them into an invincible horde.

[Endgame]

Quest 99

Overall

I felt 99 was a solid job, and fitting for a penultimate request. Not my best, but I felt that it was an overall solid quest. To be a little bit more detailed...

Speed/Pacing

After the slugfest of illness and delays that was Quest 81, It was definitely nice to be able to crank out a 30 page quest in 3 months - with only 3 PCs, no less. I don't believe I ver breached the 24 hour window by more than an hour or two, so I hope that the steady stream of updates was enjoyable. Pacing suffered a bit; The quest was divided into 3 major segments, with two battles each:

Upper Mine (Rats/Scafflord and Bouldlord)

Lower Mine (Oculouds/Dauntlets)

Nevermore(Devils/Monolith)

I was hoping the segmentation would help the heroes feel as if they were progressing, but I feel as if the lack of major aesthetic change from Upper to Lower mine made progress feel it was going a bit slow. Nevermore got updated a little slower too near the second half of the basement, so that probably didn't help either.

Loot

There really wasn't much unique around here! I felt as if I gave out enough (maybe too much gold, but that can be chalked up to overkill), but i felt the loot was suitable.

Battles

These were typical Endgame battles with a major flaw. Varied? Yes. Tough? Definitely. Chatty enemies? Yes. However, although the party as a whole had choices to approach each battle, I had neglected to provide much choice to Grimwald; his only options were only scroll and attack lower level enemies. Grimwald did have a few shining moments; Cutting the puppetstring controlling Arthur comes to mind, but overall, I apologize again for making the battles such a chore for you, LordOfTheNoobs.

While I still maintain my stance that Monolith was not too tough (You had a lucky druid, lets be realistic here. ), I did approach his second phase wrong. What I should have done is set the heart at a higher hP, and told you the exact number when Monolith would go berserk - instead, I did it in a extremely uninuititive way, and it looks like I just willed Monolith back to life because you killed him too fast. The second phase was always planned, and I did have a passive special to somewhat signal it (Endgame Syndrome: ???), but I should not have been as cryptic about it - and for that, I'm sorry. I hope the double EXP made up for my blunder.

Puzzles

This one ended up more puzzle centric than expected! I felt these were definitely some of my better puzzles in riddles - the Minoid's repair style is something I'd definitely like to make a tougher version of. The Nevermore basement was pretty much one giant puzzles, and you did well solving it - you had to use the environment, your NPC smoothtalking skills, solve riddles... Looking back, the Nevermore basement was 3 different puzzles wrapped up in one big puzzle.

Choice/Railroading

After WBD's remarks about 86, I tried to provide more choice of where to go and what to do. The "floors" were self contained, but each had their own choices:

Upper Mine: Which way around the loop you should go

Lower Mine: Which puzzle you wished to tackle, either enslaving the miners or fighting the Oculoids

Nevermore: Where to go in the Basement, saving Lynne, Getting Immersed

However, the transitions between each of these "floors" was (from my perspective, as a QM) a bit too rail-roady.

Characters/Story

I felt my cast of characters was pretty strong this time around! The Minoid had a pretty good evolution as he watched the events unfold, and I thought all of the party members had good chemistry and conversations with him. Cobb was a little flat, but I felt like he got enough personality as an NPC who pretty much existed to pin up the quest notice. The miners that you saved didn't get much screen time, but I tried to portray them as fairly mundane individuals to counterbalance the excess of quirkiness.

I have to thank you 99ers for helping me characterize Lynne and the Bookmark, though. You took one setpiece and one enemy and helped them blossom into characters - characters I quite like, now. Your personalities bounced off each other fairly well, too - and the Bookmark set into motion my personal favorite RP moments of the quest. The_Customizer and LordofTheNoobs, I have to thank you again for getting immersed - you did excellent with the new personalities you were given.

Monolith. Monolith was my second shot at Doppel, more or less - from The Regret's far away or recent past, there are always a few beings in the world that are trapped in this bizzare purgatory; a no man's land between freedom and complete slavery to The Regret. I felt Monolith did a better job of that then Doppel, though I do wish I had a few more hints about his friendly disposition near the beginning - just a miner pondering why the Giant didn't outright kill them would've been enough.

Now, the narrative itself started out fairly simple. Save the miners, save the Minoid, ad gather information about The Giant. However, it quickly spiraled into the Oculoid's territory, figuring out why they're in the mine and rooting them out - and I felt the revelation of Nevermore tied up the "why is the island like this?" threads nicely. In Nevermore, you essentially got to read a retelling of Prometheus's death and The Regret's beginning. I realize that The Regret is super evil right now. It's something I've done intentionally, and relates back to my life experiences. I'll elaborate on this a little more later, but there are a few things that may have become clear about The regret this quest if you read between the lines. I'll leave this with a question: What would you be like if you lived for three thousand years, alone, unable to obtain peace or even sleep? Some people are sick of the world after observing it for 30 years, let alone 3,000...

Hero Analysis

I'll save this for later - expect lots of compliments.

[Flipz]

I'll divide this up the way you did, then. I'm going to be complaining a lot, but I want to emphasize now that overall, I really did enjoy myself--there were just a few nasty bumps in the road along the way.

Speed/Pacing

Remember when I told you I needed to explain the difference between "update speed" and "pacing"? Now is that time. You did a very good job of keeping updates rolling in at least every 24 hours. However, the pacing involves the speed that the story beats roll in and is (mostly) independent from update speed; pacing is basically "how fast things happen", while update speed is "how often we find out what things have happened"--to pull in an example, the effective update speed of one of the Dastan Quests from the perspective of someone on one of the other Dastan Quests was slow (the Heroes only found out what the other Quests were up to once in a long while); however, the relative pacing of those other Quests was high (things were happening even though they weren't being told about it). In Quest 99, the opposite happened in Nevermore; updates came in, but it didn't seem like much was happening; it's one reason I decided to split the party, as it definitely improved the pace for a couple of days.

The first two-thirds of this Quest were really well paced--things started out slow, but they built, from finding Minoid and freeing the first set of trapped miners, then speeding up after meeting the first Oculoid-possessed objects (signifying something beyond a simple "beat the thing" exercise), then ramping up again with the Hexed miners (one of my favorite moments of the Quest--these are some of the few Oculoids we've seen since they were first introduced to be legitimately threatening, so if you want to counteract the Villain Decay as they slide more slowly toward mooks, the sort of scenarios that these three put the Heroes in is the way to go). We got a bit of a breather after that with the gem cleaning, but between the Dauntlet fight and the build-up of the entrance to Nevermore it felt like everything was building to a boss fight, and then...

Puzzle.

It's not that I didn't like the stuff we found in Nevermore (you mentioned both Lynne and Bookmark, both of whom I really enjoyed), it's just that it broke the flow; going back to something that slow (that is, cautious exploration as we have to re-establish the basic information about where we are) after all that build-up broke the tension and, ultimately, made the end boss and the material around it seem out of place.

It's sort of like this: whenever there's a major change in setting (i.e. when Heroes first leave on a Quest), things naturally start out slow, as the players (and QM, to a degree) have to work out the "rules" of their new environment; in Dastan (well, Quest 31 anyway) it was the meetings with Sir Leonard and Emperor Alandri, telling us the relevant exposition (the Lion Rebels want to take back Dastan, there's a traitor amongst the ranks, etc.) followed by a brief period in which the Heroes get to learn by exploring (the tutorial battle and hex battle, which laid out the "ground rules" for the sort of fights we'd be getting; for us it was armies and rebels, for Q30 it was minions of the Assassins with added twists depending on which specific Assassins were involved, for Q29 it was critters and cultists). After that is usually the first twist; to use Q31 as an example again, we learned the identity of the traitor as well as that there were several other forces in play. We then move to more build-up (the battle at the fort and the battle with Chaos Beasts), and at last to the finale wherein all the events so far build to a climax.

For 99, it seemed to follow the same pattern (as most Quests do): Introduction of the elements (learning about the Giant and Minoid), early rule-learning through exploration (us learning how we moved through the rooms of the mine, finding Minoid, learning his and our capabilities through the rat battle), twist (appearance of the Oculoids), build-up (Oculoid captives, Dauntlet battle)...and then we jumped back to the first and second steps, almost as if the Quest had started over again: we had introduction of the elements (learning about the backstory of The Regret, learning about the Devil Program), early rule-learning through exploration (exploring Nevermore), twist (Immersion, the "puzzle" with the blind Dauntlet), build-up (Devil battle with Lynne, the drama with curing Immersion). The problem then becomes that you now have two different stories that need to be wrapped up, but the threads are from two completely separate places, which makes it hard to tie things together; the first two-thirds of the Quest seemed to be "the story of Minoid and his humanity", which then got put on hold for "the story of The Regret's origin". (It also didn't help that the latter didn't get the same amount of build-up and fine-tuning as the former.) The end result was a boss fight that was as confusing narratively as it was mechanically.

I do want to stress again how well-paced the first two-thirds of the Quest was, though. We would not have bonded so well with Minoid, nor would we have suffered so much tension over what to do with the Oculoid captives, if that portion of the Quest hadn't been expertly crafted to carry us through that story. The first two-thirds of the Quest were perfect, and if I had to pick a storyline to experience again, it would be "the story of Minoid and his humanity".

That said, if the Quest was originally intended to be more about The Regret, then those elements should have been introduced earlier and Nevermore reached more quickly; even having things like some of those journal pages scattered around the mines or, as you mentioned, miners sharing rumors would have helped the two pieces of this Quest feel more like a singular unit.

Loot/Battles

I agree. Actually, on that note of Overkill gold (and this is spilling into battles), I would have liked to have seen quite a bit more of those "Immune to Sealed" tags changed to "Immune to Fragile" tags--after how much we abused multipliers with Scafflord and Cryoloid, I kept expecting that change to come, but no dice. I actually can't think of an enemy from this Quest past the mice who actually could be sealed--be careful of that. It's fun as a QM to see someone roll Special Damage, I get that, but sometimes the Heroes NEED a way to bypass them, especially with yours because they're so strong and have a tendency towards Area of Effect.

Speaking of which, that's another thing that limited our ability to do things: being unable to target certain enemies because otherwise we risked killing Grimwald through no fault of his own. IMO, if you're going to have AoE in a mixed-level party, at the very least balance it around the little guy.

We've already discussed Monolith a bit, and like I said, my main problem was his complexity--I couldn't plan my moves with him because there were so many things that changed EVERY Round, particularly in the second phase. I also disliked the SP piercing--if you're going to pierce SP, then it's perfectly fine to lower the enemy levels to be fair to Grimwald, since the SP piercing is guaranteed to cause me damage anyway; again, we ended up with only one thing Grimwald could do, which was immensely frustrating for both of us.

Other than that, though, I really enjoyed the battles; for the most part, they made us think but weren't unfair. I would warn you about the hazards of mimicry fights (they tend to be VERY limiting to most Heroes in terms of choices), but I feel like my breaking strategy served as a good enough object lesson in that regard.

Puzzles

I, personally, found these to be very enjoyable, though I tried to hold off on most of them to let the other players give it a try. The only note I'll give is this: be careful with your floorplans. The first floor was totally fine, and the second floor was pretty intuitive as well, but the layout of Nevermore was confusing without a map. For something like that, room-by-room mapping would help a LOT.

Characters

Minoid was great fun to have along, though he kind of faded as Nevermore came into play. I think he kept subconsciously telling you that his storyline was unrelated to The Regret's; I keep remembering all of these moments where he would, essentially, say "that's nice; WTF does this have to do with me?!" whenever something Oculoid/Regret-related came up. Cobb and the miners were fine, though obviously the three captured by the Oculoids stole the show in that regard. The flirtation from Brittany was interesting to play around, though it was a little weird--were you poking fun at how fast Arthur moved with Alexis, or...? I do love how, after dealing with Brittany and Claire, Arthur just sort of became resigned to having the women hit on him while he was down there, even though he doesn't see himself having a relationship ever again now that he's inky; I think that's why he responded so well to Lynne, since even though there might be something there she didn't try to force it.

I'm not sure why Bookmark caught my fancy; there was just something about his personality that made me think, "wow, he's kind of interesting, it would be a shame if we never see him again." When I decided I was going to have Arthur go back for him, I half-considered going back for the blind Head Dauntlet as well, but ultimately decided that a.) he wasn't interesting enough, b.) it wouldn't make as much sense for him to be redeemed, and c.) Arthur wouldn't support helping someone who so clearly held a willing loyalty to The Regret; Bookmark had his own agenda and had clearly given up on his master ever returning, and Lynne had, along with the rest of the Devils, been brainwashed into cooperation.

Minor nitpick: it was nice to see Augustus and Octavyn again, but I'm still not sure why they needed to be there; it felt a little indulgent. (And who knows, maybe it was indulgence because you just plain wanted to roleplay as them again. )

Choice and Agency

I have one big problem with most of your villains, Endgame: there's no agency regarding them. The script goes the same way every time: they show up, trash-talk, and refuse to listen to anything you say; even though the Heroes can choose what specific words to say, it's basically a cutscene, and honestly you could swap pretty much any Hero into any interaction with one of your main villains and no one would be able to tell the difference. (In fact, challenge: go and pick four Regret lines from amongst all your Quests at random and censor out any names or words he uses to refer to a specific Hero, and see if anyone can identify where they're from without resorting to search tools.) You play it off as "they're so powerful they see the Heroes as insignificant" and then have them slam people around when they say or do something that jeopardizes their appearance of invincibility, but that honestly makes them less dangerous than they could be. The scariest villains are scary because what you do matters. (See: the Stealer of Senses, or Aquos, or from this very Quest, Cryoloid, Umbraloid, and Photoloid.)

Take Wren, for example. She didn't ignore the Heroes, she paid attention them, and that made her scary as megabluck. She still believed she was going to succeed, but she didn't maintain her superiority through physical force--oh, no. In this game, because of the structure, because of the genre, because of experience and weapon upgrades and Gold inflation, Heroes get more powerful over time. In a numbers game, either the Heroes are eventually going to win, or else suspension of disbelief is going to lose. Wren saw this, looked at the situation, and made the best possible move: she refused to play the game. She didn't send minions of unbelievable strength against her foes or create minibosses designed to kill her enemies; instead, she kept the Heroes guessing, knowing they couldn't stop her if they didn't know what she was going to do next in the first place, and she did that by getting to know them, learning what made them tick, learning how to misdirect them into doing her bidding. The one time she played the numbers game--the one time--she lost. Granted, it was close, and she sort of succeeded even though her full plan failed--but when she stopped evading and played the game, she lost.

Wren enjoyed interacting with Heroes, and it's what made us enjoy interacting with her. With Regret...eh. I mean, we want to beat him up, but we want to beat everything up, it's how we get loot and experience, he's just slightly more irritating. Wren's tragic backstory was tragic. Regret's feels contrived. It's hard to feel sorry for a guy whose response to the implication that people should feel sorry for him is to slam them into a wall, whose personality description consists solely of the words "narcissist" and "evil" and nothing else. Even Darth Vader had something human going on behind the mask; Regret seems...well, like cardboard.

But let's move on. You mention Monolith as being Doppel 2.0--I actually feel that Doppel was the better character. Again, it comes down to agency--in 86, the Heroes had a chance to do something to save him (or at the very least, it seemed like it), which made his ultimate demise even more tragic. With Monolith, there was literally no choice--there was nothing we could do to save him, and there was no way we could do anything but fight him. The constant reminders that he was "invincible" were also, to be honest, really annoying, to the point where I started to get irritated with Minoid for continuing to say it. Monolith was a pain to fight, but little more than that; he wasn't really sympathetic, and he wasn't that scary either, in spite of your following the tropes of a good monster movie reveal.

Hero Analysis

Erdathcath--I actually got a lot more of you than I expected, which I enjoyed--particularly when you got to be Claire. I was surprised by Erdy a lot of the time--it's hard to get a read on her, since she doesn't really talk much. I would like to see a little more in that way, just because I can tell from our PM conversations that you've got a lot built up for her that we haven't gotten to see.

Final note: Erdy is a little strange, I never know what I should say to her when she does speak. If that's intentional, great job, there's definitely a great sense of "otherness" there.

Grimwald--I still want to see more of you. That said, I've been in your shoes (the squishy, underleveled guy who's an outsider to the plots under discussion) and I know how hard that can be. I really liked seeing Grimwald scared in the mines but determined to stay brave, and his burst of rage after the end of the Immersion was quite disturbing (in a good way! ). I do wish we could have seen a little more of the progress of CliffWald, but I understand how burnt out you were at the time--as I said above, we essentially started a whole new Quest pace- and plot-wise, and that's a lot to cope with. I hope I didn't walk over you too much over the course of this Quest.

Arthur--I do like some of the developments Arthur's made over the course of this Quest. He's growing up a bit, learning to keep his mouth shut a little more, and realizing that it doesn't have to be all about him. Unfortunately, that comes at the time when everything in the Quest seemed to be related to Arthur--he had prior experience with Octavyn, knew who Masson was at the start, knew about (and hated) the Oculoids through Karie, and of course knew The Regret because reasons. Heck, Arthur even knew about mining because he used to be a miner, a detail of his past I don't often get to use.

I do wonder if I did overpower the Quest in spite of trying not to--particularly during battles. Both of my fellow players repeatedly told me they trusted my tactical judgement, but I still felt bad at times for not figuring out a way to strategize while still encouraging them to provide more input.

Favorite moment: probably when I gave a dissertation on geology in the gem-washing room and nearly broke the QM.

[Endgame]

In order to not horribly murder the quote system:

-In regards to pacing you, are mostly right - although I would say there definitely needs to be certain amount of peaks and valleys in pacing (if the pacing were to be graphed), you are right that the entrance into Nevermore was a bit too deep of a valley, continuing the graph metaphor. I've noticed I have a bizzare habit to reset quests in terms of pacing a lot: 48 did it 3 times or so, while 70 did it once.

-You are correct about the battles - I still think living in the moment is fun in a battle, especially a boss, if you have choices on how to approach it. It's the big difference between a Monolith and an Aureole.

-I intentionally didn't give you a map - it would've broken the mirror puzzle pretty badly. I gave you one when you explored everything, and sure enough, it broke the mirror puzzle.

I'll make a note of this in the finale, but just to say it here first: If you have made a map of the current area and want to get it checked, present it to any of my NPCs. They'll happily verify it for you, and points out what's right and wrong.

-The Regret's journals were supposed to provide a little bit of insight to his mindset/disorders, not necessarily his origin. Take into account this tidbit:

"He can feign any emotion and lie effortlessly due to his rampant sociopathy."

With:

"He almost always has a reason for doing what he does."

And you'll begin to realize that maybe The Regret isn't what he seems.

-You're a jerk because of that geology lesson.

[Zepher]

I thought Flipz' and my reviews of the quest would actually have been more different than I think they will turn out to be (Flipz and I don't always agree on story telling, but perhaps we're coming to be more alike as we continue to play this crazy game ). I also, sadly, wasn't the hugest fan of the quest - and I say this with full respect to you! 70 is still one of my all time favorite quests to have been on. So know that I say this with respect and admiration - but I had a lot of problems with the quest. I only tell you them because I have complete faith you can improve on them.

Also I just worked 8 hours for a crazy shift and its late night so maybe all these sentences aren't the prettiest sentences, but hopefully they'll still be comprehensible.

1) I'll start off with something Flipz addressed - the incredible Arthur bent of this quest. Flipz, first off, I want to commend you. You DO have a tendency to steal the show, and with this quest seemingly geared towards that, purposely or by accident, you did it FAR less than you sometimes do/were in a position to do. I think you showed great restraint, and hopefully it didn't make it less fun for you. I feel Arthur still grew and did lots, but he overshadowed the other characters through the quest's design, not your actions. So, congrats on that.

This quest was so strictly Arthur, it felt insane. I know he's wrapped up in your plot (it does bother me that he knows the Regret from a cut scene that happened in the Hall and that he's an inky for the same reason... I feel like he's done enough on quests he doesn't need extra stories outside them [the Lion Knights being a good example of something that happened in quest and then carried on out of quest, so that's the sort of thing I thinks cool]) but it was so damn Arthur centric it sort of felt silly to even bother having other characters there. He knew Regret, Masson, mining... everything he said, basically. I don't know. It just felt like the other two characters were tossed to the side. And then Lyenne was drawn to him, and he saved the Book Dauntlet... hell, you even got rid of the other two characters and had them play other characters, and it didn't really CHANGE anything, so, what does that tell you?

2) SPEAKING of the Book Dauntlet and Lyenne - eh. Why? I mean, why make them good? Why make them salvageable? I feel like you're a little afraid to kill all your darlings. Was the Book cool? Yes! Was it cool when it turned out it was a cool dude at heart? Um... less so? Was it cool to see people damaged by The Regret? Actually, sort of. Was it cool to be able to save the only one that you made sympathetic... I guess so? No. Not really. I'm not trying to be a downer, but wouldn't your characters be more diverse, more awesome if NO Lyenne was beyond saving and the heroes had to just straight up kill her and NO the Book Dauntlet betrayed Arthur or didn't betray Arthur but wasn't all buddy buddy. It's the same as rail roading, sort of, and even less satisfying for me to see: the best action is hinted at, easy, and has no downsides. Everyone is the good guy. Meh.

Which brings me to:

3) My biggest complaint, and something I thought Flipz would not touch on but did and in a similar fashion I wanted to - he even used the same critiques. Your villains. They're not particularly diverse - we sort of know what's coming. Here's Big Bad! But boy does he have a heart of gold and a tortured past (Mythrogg, Regret, Doppel, Masson, Stealer of Senses, Aquos, probably some of the other baddies from the Progg arch, the Monolith). It's just not diverse, and it feels sort of... contrived, like Flipz said. What if the Regret didn't have a sad past. What if he was just straight up insane and evil. (Side Note: for someone who considers the heroes so little he sure loves talking to them a lot). Again, I'm sorry if this is mean, but they do feel not that fleshed out sometimes. I feel like they can be more nuanced, and I feel that YOU have it in you to do it.

Here's my suggestion: look at your best villain (in my eyes) to date - Masson Cour. Now, I have my problems with him too (he went very quickly to paragon of lovable "bad" quirks and noble feelings) BUT when he was a villain, he was rad. He polarized the party. He had a sad past (hell, the heroes killed his cousin [i think it was]). But YOU knew you were going to make him a goodie in the end. SO - why not view all villains that way? They certainly view themselves that way (because that's how people work). What if, instead of the Monolith being another baddie with a secret heart of gold - what if he was someone who HAD to defend this land because that's what he'd been told to do. That's not bad but secretly good. That's just some dude doing his job who is against the heroes. The Book Duantlet - what if he just loved stories. Would have still allowed for the immersion, but maybe he betrays the heroes later because he could give a sh*t about them, and it would be a better twist, and THAT's really what he lives for. What if Masson has a problem with his lack of sleep - what if it's not adorable, and what if he pushes someone to far and they die, or that they quit and hate his guts and he tries to win them back because he can't handle rejection and he becomes obsessed because he does that. What if the Regret has NO PAST. What if he just is evil. Sheer evil. Iago. I think you have it in you to give us less bad masking good. View them not as that, but as someone who is acting independently of bad v. good, of villain v. hero. View them as just another dude that you could run into on the street. View them as heroes.

Also, I knew Flipz would love it - Minoid shouldn't have been grasping for human emotions. (Well, I don't want to say shouldn't - clearly it was the highlight of the quest for Flipz, so here's where we feel differently). It felt too hopeful. Why not just be a robot devoid of emotions? Wouldn't that be a more diverse character than another person trying to figure out what it means to be human. We already have so many of those characters.

So, really, I think you can tell a more diverse story with a more diverse cast. I guess my complaint is that your story feels too perfect. The heroes taught Minoid about emotions, found out the secrets of Nevermore, saved the two redeemable characters, and freed the creature that wanted to be freed. If you had told me all the secret troubles they'd face in the quest, and asked me what the most predictable/happy outcome would have been, I'd have said that. There wasn't even any shocking HAPPY twists. It may have not been railroaded, but it FELT railroaded. What was the conflict? Not like what battles did they fight, but what was the conflict? I guess that's why I'd say that I loved 70, and didn't really love this. The conflict of that was what: love, loyalty to your organization, are people redeemable? What was the conflict of this?

You can do better! And you didn't do horribly! I (clearly) read the whole thing (I don't do that for all quests due to time constraints). I was impressed by the players. You offered them some good bits! But if I patted you on the back and said great job, then the finale wouldn't be the best quest you've put out so far, and I know you CAN make a better quest, because we're all getting better!

[Flipz]

Yeah, as far as the biggest conflict on the Quest (and certainly its most successful moment), it would have to be when the Oculoids held the miners (and their precious Shadeaux rep!) hostage. I actually wish you'd made the Oculoids say "no, you take this offer, or they die and you don't get your rep". I was salivating at the thought of how Arthur would have to reconcile two of his strongest morals: don't let people die, and don't let people have to live enslaved. That failure would have scarred him, and Brittany would have been a literally constant reminder of his failure, not to mention she would have been living proof of his decision for all the world to see, proof that he's a monster inside and out. While I recognize that it wouldn't have made sense for Cobb to hand out the Shadeaux rep in that situation (making it a lose-lose as far as the rep bit goes), it did still feel like a missed opportunity.

Also, I knew Flipz would love it - Minoid shouldn't have been grasping for human emotions. (Well, I don't want to say shouldn't - clearly it was the highlight of the quest for Flipz, so here's where we feel differently). It felt too hopeful. Why not just be a robot devoid of emotions? Wouldn't that be a more diverse character than another person trying to figure out what it means to be human. We already have so many of those characters.

I wouldn't call it the highlight of the Quest (that would be, as mentioned, the hostage-taking Oculoids), but I do think that the arc Minoid had was both more coherent and more enjoyable than the story we got down in the dungeon.

And suggestion: you already have a "robot who's found humanity" character, how would he react, then, if his own "brother" is not interested in becoming more human? Yes, you've done the ideologically opposed brothers thing already, but what if this time it doesn't have a happy ending?

[Myrddyn]

I liked the quest, but I have to say, while I saw the Endgame Syndrome note at the beginning of the Monolith fight, and knew that meant a second phase, I am confused about the purpose of the separation into two phases. Both phases seemed quite similar, with the only differences being minor increases to some levels and hit points in the second phase, and the somewhat different specials of the hands.

It seemed like the only purpose of the first phase was to wear down the heroes in preparation for the second phase, and while that did only take 4 rounds/3 days, I feel you could have made that either simpler or more varied; just described them fighting for a bit and having their health worn down, or having a wave of other enemies, some more of the Regret's failed experiments or something, to fight, with Monolith joining the fight when they were all defeated, or after a set number of rounds.

I feel they basically fought the same battle twice, and it would have been nice to have seen more variation between phases.

[Endgame]

Most of what you said would either warrant a response of "You're right" or "Fair enough", Zepher (which you most deifnitely are!) , so to prevent us from creating a practical fortress of text , I've decided to respond to two things: (Assume everything else gets the two responses above. )

-The Bookmark is more or less as you described. He liked stories, yes. And for him, Nevermore just ran out. He sdapped its literature dry. It'd be a little boneheaded for him not to take the offer to get what he wants - sure, he hated Nevermore, but that doesn't neccasarily mean he's a good guy. He's still fully willing to brainwash people into someone or something they're simply not.

In fact, I didn't even plan for the Bookmark to exit Nevermore! Arthur initiated it, and it was pretty much a win-win for him. An escape from Nevermore and new reading material? Why wouldn't he take it? He even breached his contract with Arthur to immerse Lynne. Did he mean well? Probably. But then again, he recognized the problems that would happen if a traumatized Lynne made it topside, and they made the connection between him and her.

-Lynne was saveable because I knew Monolith wouldn't be. I wanted to provide some sense of the fact that it's not all futile.

-This quest did have some pretty good outcomes, and for two reasons: 81 had the Progg colony trampled and sent into endangerment, and in the finale, there isn't going to be much of saving anyone besides your own skin. There should be something of a variance of how much heroes win and gain throughout an arc, and 99 was the highpoint. What comes next isn't going to be pretty.

I liked the quest, but I have to say, while I saw the Endgame Syndrome note at the beginning of the Monolith fight, and knew that meant a second phase, I am confused about the purpose of the separation into two phases. Both phases seemed quite similar, with the only differences being minor increases to some levels and hit points in the second phase, and the somewhat different specials of the hands.

It seemed like the only purpose of the first phase was to wear down the heroes in preparation for the second phase, and while that did only take 4 rounds/3 days, I feel you could have made that either simpler or more varied; just described them fighting for a bit and having their health worn down, or having a wave of other enemies, some more of the Regret's failed experiments or something, to fight, with Monolith joining the fight when they were all defeated, or after a set number of rounds.

I feel they basically fought the same battle twice, and it would have been nice to have seen more variation between phases.

I agree, I really should've had more distinction and clarity about when the phase was going to start, and perhaps a little bit more variety in phase. This time, it wa sjust a simple "Turns Red", so to speak - a new free hit system and new specials. No crazy freefall section.

ALSO: As a footnote: I'm not the one who plans on using the Minoid's "brother."

Edited June 29, 2014 by Endgame

[Endgame]

I realize this is something of a double post, but I think it's an interesting question.

For quests that have been completed, how did their final versions compare to their first drafts?

A lot of my quests have some early installment weirdness.

36: Proggs were originally going to have giant gaping holes in their faces instead of face grids. Additionally, you were going to be accompanied by Ayla's fiance.

46: Howard Dini was originally going to turn on you, a plot point that would've made absolutely no sense. Originally, it was going to be more tournament style - I regret not using the latter one. Still do not like this quest.

48: Originally was going to take place where 105 takes place, was originally going to feature the descendants of the Progg's slavemasters. It was a mess.

In the final draft, something that was changed about a month into 48? The Mythrogg was originally the true final boss of that quest. I realized it made no sense and cut it, and thus the monstrosity that was Perfect Regret was born.

56: ...This one kind of just flowed, really. Ian and his crew I came up with after the party actually got cpatured by the Apprentice, though. Improv night!

70: Masson was originally going to be a lot more evil, and would've been shown raiding various warehouses. The original finale of the original draft had Masson burning to death in a warehouse fire... Something that would of happened in the end of 70 (trapped in a burning Syndicate HQ, killing him and Octavyn), but then he had to go and bloody fall in love with a redhead.

79: The Oculoid Amalgam went through 12 different drafts.

81: Originally involved The Regret trying to exert his influence on a wax muesuem, trapping the spirits of the Progg princes into them and forcing them to do dirty work. It was... bizzare, not to mention before I decided to make The Regret my permanent big bad.

86: This one flowed, too! Not many differences between first and final, and no notable ones.

97: Kos was originally a moth. I have a phobia of moths.

99: Lava. There was originally going to be lots and lots of lava. Nevermore was originally going to be a volcanic crater that had to be naviagted, with no story relevance whatsoever. It would've just been... there, really, so the Monolith battle would have a cooler backdrop.

Also: When I thought of what I wanted my very first quest to be, after reading a handful of completed quests and not even completing 32 yet, what was my first idea?

"Zoot dropping Chaos Nukes from outer space."

...It's amazing how stupid I was when I first joined.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Endgame

[Pyrovisionary]

And here I was thinking of the Guild of Invision inventing an H-bomb, detonating it, and we all going Shadowrun/Fallout style.

[Kintobor]

The whole Graveyard arc was going to end a lot differently with the party acting as bouncers at Aldus and Violet's wedding.

A lot of my quests go through some sort of revision, 94 probably went through the most. It was originally going to have a Dullahan in it because Dullahan's are freaking amazing and we don't have enough fae type enemies.

[K-Nut]

And why did we not do that exactly? I feel like that would've been the perfect party for being bouncers too.

[Duvors]

36: Proggs were orginally going to have giant gaping holes in their faces instead of face grids.

Creepy.

56: ...This one kind of just flowed, really. Ian and his crew I came up with after the party actually got cpatured by the Apprentice, though. Improv night!

70: Masson was originally going to be a lot more evil, and would've been shown raiding various warehouses. The original finale of the original draft had Masson burning to death in a warehouse fire... Something that would of happened in the end of 70 (trapped in a burning Syndicate HQ, killing him and Octavyn), but then he had to go and bloody fall in love with a redhead.

If you had read Darths and Droids you would have known to make allowances for this sort of thing.

79: The Oculoid Amalgam went through 12 different drafts.

97: Kos was originally a moth. I have a phobia of moths.

Battra!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

By the way, it's interesting that you changed the big bad from something you have a fear of to something I have a fear of.

Also: When I thought of what I wanted my very first quest to be, after reading a handful of completed quests and not even completing 32 yet, what was my first idea?

"Zoot dropping Chaos Nukes from outer space."

...It's amazing how stupid I was when I first joined.

You haven't seen some of the ideas I've had then.

A lot of my quests go through some sort of revision, 94 probably went through the most. It was originally going to have a Dullahan in it because Dullahan's are freaking amazing and we don't have enough fae type enemies.

What on earth is a Dullahan? Edited July 4, 2014 by Lord Duvors

[Kintobor]

And why did we not do that exactly? I feel like that would've been the perfect party for being bouncers too.

Son of a- yes, it probably would've been amazing, looking back.

[Endgame]

I did read Darths and Droids. I was too busy laughing at Pete's lines to actually pick up the moral of the story.

Also, 97's boss was not changed because I was afraid of building it, for the record. I thought it'd make more sense to trap Crowley in a spider web than a moth ball.

But hey, at least you people know how to get me back for boss fights now.

(Please don't though. )

Son of a- yes, it probably would've been amazing, looking back.

Nah, no one is a better bouncer than Arthur, Sorrow, and Nagure.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Endgame

[K-Nut]

I say a reunion quest may be in order.

Nah, no one is a btter bouncer than Arthur, Sorrow, and Nagure.

I feel like Boomingham could challenge you on that.

[Flipz]

Nah, no one is a better bouncer than Arthur, Sorrow, and Nagure.

I feel like Boomingham could challenge you on that.

Oh, come now, K-Nut, don't you know that Bumbles bounce?

Edited July 4, 2014 by Flipz

[Endgame]

Another question: How would you folks feel about passive specials that make enemies take more/less damage from certain weapon types?

e.g Hack and Slash: Greatswords tear through this beast's brittle hide, doing an additional 20 damage.

or

That's It?: Arrow have almost no affect on this hulking monstrosity, due to his massive size. Arrows do 20 less damage.

[K-Nut]

Oh, come now, K-Nut, don't you know that Bumbles bounce?

Oh, of course. How could I forget?

Another question: How would you folks feel about passive specials that make enemies take more/less damage from certain weapon types?

It seems like a cool concept, but I'd do it in a way more like the environment affecting spells in Quest #100. For example, in your examples, I'd personally do something like greatswords are twice as effective and arrows are half as effective.

[Endgame]

It seems like a cool concept, but I'd do it in a way more like the environment affecting spells in Quest #100. For example, in your examples, I'd personally do something like greatswords are twice as effective and arrows are half as effective.

That's also viable. I realize that the +20 thing may be a little complicated, but I'm hoping I'll be able to handle such a thing.

[Flipz]

Another question: How would you folks feel about passive specials that make enemies take more/less damage from certain weapon types?

e.g Hack and Slash: Greatswords tear through this beast's brittle hide, doing an additional 20 damage.

or

That's It?: Arrow have almost no affect on this hulking monstrosity, due to his massive size. Arrows do 20 less damage.

I actually have something like that in one of the optional battles of my Quest, though in that case it's more to do with the logic of the setting (and thus applies to all enemies in that fight) than with the specific properties of the enemy. That said, multipliers just make more sense.

[Kintobor]

Something along the lines of DnD's Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing? I wouldn't mind it, but not every battle. If you did it in a way that made a hero deviate from their original strategy, I'd be all for it in moderation.

[Flipz]

Something along the lines of DnD's Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing? I wouldn't mind it, but not every battle. If you did it in a way that made a hero deviate from their original strategy, I'd be all for it in moderation.

You Bore Me - Because of the staggering oversaturation of daggers and longswords in the universe, all enemies on the Quest are immune to damage from weapons of those types.

Actually, I believe Jebs did use Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing in 35, albeit only in one battle. (Was still a really cool fight, though. )