Brown, how many browns are there?

[Hrw-Amen]

Well, the title says it all really.

I have recently been getting some bricks together from Bricklink for a MOC and have got hold of a lot of brown. Now I don't mean the various shades listed as seperate in the Bricklink stores, I know they are different as they have different names. I am talking about the normal everyday brown. I have at least four different distinct shades of brown, sometimes in the same lot.

Is there an awful lot of variation between batches of brown? I've seen a little in other bricks but not to the same extent. Has anyone else noticed this?

[JimBee]

I was wondering the same thing, actually. I've been hearing a lot of "reddish brown" and "frown" and "brown" around here lately. I don't know the difference.

I know that a lot of the old brown (pre-2003-ish) had some problems with color consistency. A lot of my old brown pieces have varying degrees of milkyness.

[Hrw-Amen]

Yes, I've also got a few Dark Red and Reddish Brown, that although different to normal Brown are in themselves almost identical to each other in some cases. Almost to the extent that I have wondered on occasion if they have been mixed up?

[Piratedave84]

I remember reading either here or on Brothers Brick about reddish brown having a lor of tints or shades (I tried and find the article or post but cannot for the life of me).

In the article or post in question, someone had stacked 7 or 8 1 x 6's and there were all quite different tones.

I myself got 2000+ inverted 2x2 slopes in reddish brown and the color variation is not as bad but there are still nuances.

Pirate

[davee123]

I know that a lot of the old brown (pre-2003-ish) had some problems with color consistency.

Old brown (which didn't start really coming in buildable elements very often until the early 1990's) was pretty consistent color-wise, unless you left it out in the sun, in which case it might sun-fade. The newer brown ("reddish brown", from 2004) I don't think has been a major offender in terms of color consistency that I can think of-- but generally colors since 2004 have had more color consistency issues than older parts (again, apart from sun-fading).

I have recently been getting some bricks together from Bricklink for a MOC and have got hold of a lot of brown. Now I don't mean the various shades listed as seperate in the Bricklink stores, I know they are different as they have different names. I am talking about the normal everyday brown.

I'm not sure what you mean if you don't mean "various shades listed". There is no such thing as "normal everyday brown", at least not since 2003.

The "common" brown color was used starting in the 1970's, starting off mostly as minifig accessories like hair, brooms, pirate flintlocks, battle axes, etc. In the late 1980's, LEGO started producing a scant few bricks and plates in Brown, but they were few and far-between-- mostly, they were used as the 1x2 bricks/plates on the backs of horses. Sometime in the early 1990's (I recall 1993 specifically with Dragon Masters), Brown started appearing more commonly in bricks, and became increasingly common up through its discontinuation at the end of 2003. It's also now called "Old Brown" sometimes, and was referred to as "Earth Orange" (of all things) by LEGO.

In 2004, LEGO decided to change the brown color. So they stopped producing "Brown", and made a brand new color, which henceforth has been referred to as "Reddish Brown" (or sometimes "New Brown" or "Blown"). After an uproarious outcry from the hobbyist community, LEGO vowed never to change "core" colors ever again, "Reddish Brown" included.

In 2005 (and maybe 2004 and 2006?) SOME LEGO sets were sold containing BOTH "Old Brown" and "Reddish Brown", in an effort to use up leftover Old Brown parts.

So, that's the story-- there are TWO colors which you might mean by "common brown". "Old Brown", on BrickLink, is called "Brown". "New Brown", on BrickLink, is called "Reddish Brown". If you get a color that does NOT match in your BrickLink order, that's most likely the seller's fault for not understanding the very complicated circumstances for the colors. It could also be that the bricks are sun-faded, but that's not as common in Brown elements.

Otherwise, there's Dark Brown, Dark Orange, Dark Tan, Dark Flesh, etc, etc, which are all essentially a different shade of brown, depending on your definition.

[edit]

I see 11 different colors (9 have BrickLink names?) that LEGO acknowledged that could be considered "brown":

#12 - Light Orange Brown (we call it "Earth Orange")

#18 - Nougat (we call it "Flesh")

#25 - Earth Orange ("Old Brown")

#38 - Dark Orange ("Dark Orange")

#128 - Dark Nougat (not sure what this is)

#138 - Sand Yellow ("Dark Tan")

#192 - Reddish Brown ("Reddish Brown")

#216 - Rust (not 100% sure what this really is)

#217 - Brown ("Dark Flesh")

#308 - Dark Brown ("Dark Brown")

#312 - Medium Nougat ("Medium Dark Flesh")

[/edit]

DaveE

Edited June 6, 2011 by davee123

[Aanchir]

Old brown (which didn't start really coming in buildable elements very often until the early 1990's) was pretty consistent color-wise, unless you left it out in the sun, in which case it might sun-fade. The newer brown ("reddish brown", from 2004) I don't think has been a major offender in terms of color consistency that I can think of-- but generally colors since 2004 have had more color consistency issues than older parts (again, apart from sun-fading).

I'm not sure what you mean if you don't mean "various shades listed". There is no such thing as "normal everyday brown", at least not since 2003.

The "common" brown color was used starting in the 1970's, starting off mostly as minifig accessories like hair, brooms, pirate flintlocks, battle axes, etc. In the late 1980's, LEGO started producing a scant few bricks and plates in Brown, but they were few and far-between-- mostly, they were used as the 1x2 bricks/plates on the backs of horses. Sometime in the early 1990's (I recall 1993 specifically with Dragon Masters), Brown started appearing more commonly in bricks, and became increasingly common up through its discontinuation at the end of 2003. It's also now called "Old Brown" sometimes, and was referred to as "Earth Orange" (of all things) by LEGO.

In 2004, LEGO decided to change the brown color. So they stopped producing "Brown", and made a brand new color, which henceforth has been referred to as "Reddish Brown" (or sometimes "New Brown" or "Blown"). After an uproarious outcry from the hobbyist community, LEGO vowed never to change "core" colors ever again, "Reddish Brown" included.

In 2005 (and maybe 2004 and 2006?) SOME LEGO sets were sold containing BOTH "Old Brown" and "Reddish Brown", in an effort to use up leftover Old Brown parts.

So, that's the story-- there are TWO colors which you might mean by "common brown". "Old Brown", on BrickLink, is called "Brown". "New Brown", on BrickLink, is called "Reddish Brown". If you get a color that does NOT match in your BrickLink order, that's most likely the seller's fault for not understanding the very complicated circumstances for the colors. It could also be that the bricks are sun-faded, but that's not as common in Brown elements.

Otherwise, there's Dark Brown, Dark Orange, Dark Tan, Dark Flesh, etc, etc, which are all essentially a different shade of brown, depending on your definition.

[edit]

I see 11 different colors (9 have BrickLink names?) that LEGO acknowledged that could be considered "brown":

#12 - Light Orange Brown (we call it "Earth Orange")

#18 - Nougat (we call it "Flesh")

#25 - Earth Orange ("Old Brown")

#38 - Dark Orange ("Dark Orange")

#128 - Dark Nougat (not sure what this is)

#138 - Sand Yellow ("Dark Tan")

#192 - Reddish Brown ("Reddish Brown")

#216 - Rust (not 100% sure what this really is)

#217 - Brown ("Dark Flesh")

#308 - Dark Brown ("Dark Brown")

#312 - Medium Nougat ("Medium Dark Flesh")

[/edit]

DaveE

Actually, Reddish Brown does have more significant color consistency issues than most other LEGO colors. It's not quite as problematic as Dark Red, but still up there. I've read that one reason for this is that reddish colors are just easier for the human eye to distinguish, so even variations within TLG's prescribed tolerances are more noticeable in Dark Red and Reddish Brown than in a lot of other colors. That's just one factor, of course-- there are also, as you mentioned, far more color inconsistency problems in post-2004 parts in general than in pre-2004 parts.

Also, great work on that color list. I'd like to add that of the colors listed, only 18, 38, 192, 308, and 312 are still current today. This means you won't be finding any of the other brown colors on store shelves except if a store still has sets from 2006 (the year 217 Brown was discontinued).

I'm not entirely sure what 216 Rust is, either. It's a fairly recent color, given its numbering, but I can't think of any examples of it in System. Possibly a Duplo color? Another brown color I know of but don't know much about is 108 Earth Yellow, which was probably introduced in the late 90s.

I can tell you what 128 Dark Nougat is-- it's the color used for Vernon Dursley's hair in 4728 Escape from Privet Drive. Bricklink misidentifies it as Light Orange Brown (BL's Earth Orange), something I don't understand since it's several shades darker than Ron Weasley's Light Orange Brown hair in the same set. Peeron does identify it as a distinct color, although I don't know how many of the things listed as that color are actually that color since I don't have any of the Duplo or Belville sets where it is said to have appeared.

And then there's 187 Metallic Earth Orange, a color that doesn't appear on most lists-- it was used almost exclusively in the the BIONICLE set 8587 Panrahk for this character's face, feet, and back plate. I wouldn't include any metallic ("pearl") colors in a list of colors that could be called "brown", but in this case the color is so close to 25 Earth Orange (old brown) that almost any resource referring to these parts will just call them Brown.

The reason classic brown is called Earth Orange, by the way, is because of where it falls on the color spectrum LEGO used to use for many of its colors. Here's a chart showing the other colors that fall on this spectrum. There are a lot of other curious color names that are best explained with this chart, such as Sand Yellow (Dark Tan), Brick Yellow (Tan), and Dark Green (Green).

Edited June 6, 2011 by Aanchir

[CP5670]

There are at least three kinds of brown out there: old brown (before 2004), pre-2007 reddish brown and post-2007 reddish brown. The 2004 color change is well known, but there was another change to reddish brown some time in 2007 or 2008, and it's common for a set to contain both varieties (e.g. the asteroid bank in 5982). This isn't the same kind of opacity issue that many other colors have; there are actually two distinct shades of the color here.

Edited June 6, 2011 by CP5670

[davee123]

pre-2007 reddish brown and post-2007 reddish brown. [...] there was another change to reddish brown some time in 2007 or 2008

Was this an intentional or unintentional color change? As LEGO assured us in 2004, they would never intentionally change any of the "core" colors without "serious discussion [...] including adult hobbyists".

DaveE

Edited June 6, 2011 by davee123

[Aanchir]

Was this an intentional or unintentional color change? As LEGO assured us in 2004, they would never intentionally change any of the "core" colors without "serious discussion [...] including adult hobbyists".

DaveE

I doubt it was an intentional color change, just because if an extreme color change were intended, the new reddish brown would be assigned a new Material ID number. As I mentioned before, differences in color among reddish colors like Reddish Brown and Dark Red are more easily perceptible to the human eye, so it could very easily be a simple difference in how concentrated the dye is.

For the record, I don't recall ever seeing any differences in Reddish Brown parts that were considerably more distinct than any other color inconsistencies, and having never had a dark age I've been buying sets fairly consistently since before the 2004 color change, and certainly since 2007. I'm not saying that there aren't inconsistencies, but I'm having trouble imagining a systematic change in that color in 2007 that managed to completely escape my notice (and that I've never heard mentioned up until now).

[davee123]

I doubt it was an intentional color change, just because if an extreme color change were intended, the new reddish brown would be assigned a new Material ID number.

That would be my guess as well-- LEGO never said that it wouldn't change (say) its molding technology without consulting fans, which might AFFECT the resulting colors (hopefully slightly). But I'm alarmed if it's considered to be intentional.

Regarding "Material ID"-- is it actually a "Material ID", or is it a "Color ID"? When I was working on verifying the color chart with LEGO, one thing that stuck out in my mind was the fact that "Material" was distinct from "Color". As I recall, the "Color" of the Millennium Falcon's transparent blue tubing (used for the engines) had an identical "Color ID" to ... uh ... Darn, I'm forgetting. I want to say that it was the same as the transparent-tinted-blue windshields, but I forget if that's correct. Anyway, I remember the "Color" being distinct from the "Material" in their database, although I don't know much if anything about internal LEGO "Material ID"'s.

I'm having trouble imagining a systematic change in that color in 2007 that managed to completely escape my notice (and that I've never heard mentioned up until now).

Yeah, I certainly don't recall hearing anything about it from fans, apart from the normal discontentment regarding color consistency. I'll have to check what I have that I KNOW is from 2004-2006 (I have some things that I KNOW are from 2007 and later).

DaveE

[Aanchir]

That would be my guess as well-- LEGO never said that it wouldn't change (say) its molding technology without consulting fans, which might AFFECT the resulting colors (hopefully slightly). But I'm alarmed if it's considered to be intentional.

Your point about a change in the molding process is a good one. In 2006 TLG switched to adding dye to their plastic granulate during the production process rather than using pre-colored granulate, and I wonder if perhaps it wasn't until 2007 that they used up what was left of their pre-colored Reddish Brown granulate and began distributing parts made with the modern dying process.

Regarding "Material ID"-- is it actually a "Material ID", or is it a "Color ID"? When I was working on verifying the color chart with LEGO, one thing that stuck out in my mind was the fact that "Material" was distinct from "Color". As I recall, the "Color" of the Millennium Falcon's transparent blue tubing (used for the engines) had an identical "Color ID" to ... uh ... Darn, I'm forgetting. I want to say that it was the same as the transparent-tinted-blue windshields, but I forget if that's correct. Anyway, I remember the "Color" being distinct from the "Material" in their database, although I don't know much if anything about internal LEGO "Material ID"'s.

Material ID is what LEGO Digital Designer refers to the individual colors as. But in real life, I wouldn't be surprised if Material ID includes both the color and the physical material-- such as pp182 or pp111 on this chart, both of which I believe are the material used in BIONICLE and Hero Factory weapons, rather than the polycarbonate (PC) used for most transparent parts or the ABS used for most opaque parts.

[CP5670]

Was this an intentional or unintentional color change? As LEGO assured us in 2004, they would never intentionally change any of the "core" colors without "serious discussion [...] including adult hobbyists".

DaveE

It might have been. There is a pretty consistent difference between the two reddish browns in my experience, unlike the colors with opacity problems. There was some discussion about it here and here.

Remember, a color change doesn't necessarily mean that they will actually change the color ID. Other colors like dark red have been changed before while keeping the same color ID. I vaguely recall seeing some quote from TLG about this color that it was done to attain better consistency in the color, but I can't find the reference now.

[Aanchir]

It might have been. There is a pretty consistent difference between the two reddish browns in my experience, unlike the colors with opacity problems. There was some discussion about it here and here.

Remember, a color change doesn't necessarily mean that they will actually change the color ID. Other colors like dark red have been changed before while keeping the same color ID. I vaguely recall seeing some quote from TLG about this color that it was done to attain better consistency in the color, but I can't find the reference now.

Oh, well I guess that makes sense. They did that several times with 131 Silver, apparently. And since Reddish Brown (as mentioned) is fairly notorious for being inconsistent, changing the formulation could be helpful in the long run (although until they stop using the "old version" and "new version" together it's just an additional source of inconsistency). I'm a bit surprised that I didn't notice this or hear about it at the time, but I suppose I was probably too preoccupied with the BIONICLE theme (which has had only about three sets with Reddish Brown parts, two in 2006 and one in 2009).

[davee123]

Remember, a color change doesn't necessarily mean that they will actually change the color ID.

I think I would consider that to be a quality issue, not a color change. IE, it's a problem, but the "target color" hasn't changed. LEGO is still attempting to achieve the same color they were always attempting to achieve, but they're getting sloppier at it (while saving money). So, I wouldn't call it a "color change", since that implies that the target color has shifted. I'd just say that it's a quality issue with color consistency.

DaveE