Discontinued parts/designer restrictions?

[Cinderbike]

Hey all, recently came out of the dark ages and have tons of questions. One that has been bugging me for awhile is, I've always seen things such as PAB only offering parts still in production, or how designers are limited to parts in production.

My questions are:

- Why/how are parts discontinued? I read an article that the LEGO Group has actively tried to downsize the parts roster (and got rid of half IIRC) and use less big, unique pieces in sets, but that can't be the only source of discontinued parts.

- Do designers REALLY have to stay within bounds of what is on the lines, or can a designer, if they have a reason for it, have TLG pull a part back into production/make one in a different color?

- Does Bricklink/etc. have a list of discontinued parts?

Thanks!

[Aanchir]

Hey all, recently came out of the dark ages and have tons of questions. One that has been bugging me for awhile is, I've always seen things such as PAB only offering parts still in production, or how designers are limited to parts in production.

My questions are:

- Why/how are parts discontinued? I read an article that the LEGO Group has actively tried to downsize the parts roster (and got rid of half IIRC) and use less big, unique pieces in sets, but that can't be the only source of discontinued parts.

- Do designers REALLY have to stay within bounds of what is on the lines, or can a designer, if they have a reason for it, have TLG pull a part back into production/make one in a different color?

- Does Bricklink/etc. have a list of discontinued parts?

Thanks!

There are lots of reasons for parts getting discontinued. One example is parts that are brittle, or that have to have a lot removed from production by quality control. Examples are certain types of hinges-- the socket joints used in BIONICLE, for instance, have been through multiple redesigns, and the "out-of-date" versions have been removed from production. Similarly, the old-style four-wide window hinge no longer appears in sets, due to the "teeth" breaking.

Beyond that, I don't know all the reasons. It's hard to tell when a part is actually discontinued (i.e. LEGO stops using it permanently) and when LEGO's just stopped using it in sets (i.e. they don't have a need for it at the time being, but may start using it again very soon). So there's really no way for Bricklink or any other site to "compile" a full list of discontinued parts.

We're safe to assume that certain parts, like those from outdated themes like Fabuland, are no longer being produced, but in some cases this becomes very vague indeed. The only time it's totally obvious that a part has been discontinued is when LEGO releases a brand-new version of the part which starts appearing in all sets in place of the older version. And even then the transition may be vague for a while-- after all, if LEGO has the older version already-produced then it may continue appearing in sets for a short while (sets which would otherwise have the newer version).

[Cinderbike]

There are lots of reasons for parts getting discontinued. One example is parts that are brittle, or that have to have a lot removed from production by quality control. Examples are certain types of hinges-- the socket joints used in BIONICLE, for instance, have been through multiple redesigns, and the "out-of-date" versions have been removed from production. Similarly, the old-style four-wide window hinge no longer appears in sets, due to the "teeth" breaking.

Beyond that, I don't know all the reasons. It's hard to tell when a part is actually discontinued (i.e. LEGO stops using it permanently) and when LEGO's just stopped using it in sets (i.e. they don't have a need for it at the time being, but may start using it again very soon). So there's really no way for Bricklink or any other site to "compile" a full list of discontinued parts.

We're safe to assume that certain parts, like those from outdated themes like Fabuland, are no longer being produced, but in some cases this becomes very vague indeed. The only time it's totally obvious that a part has been discontinued is when LEGO releases a brand-new version of the part which starts appearing in all sets in place of the older version. And even then the transition may be vague for a while-- after all, if LEGO has the older version already-produced then it may continue appearing in sets for a short while (sets which would otherwise have the newer version).

Ah.

I was sad to see the old doors go. I have a ton of them. I also haven't seen the 'old' 2x2 window (the one with the frame and a weird 'cutaway' bottom on it) in sets for awhile either. I have a ton of those 4-wide hinges from all my old Town and Aquazone sets, but had no idea they weren't in use any more.

Thanks for the info!

[davee123]

- Why/how are parts discontinued? I read an article that the LEGO Group has actively tried to downsize the parts roster (and got rid of half IIRC) and use less big, unique pieces in sets, but that can't be the only source of discontinued parts.

That's not quite accurate, first off. A part is never "discontinued", although its mold may be destroyed. As I understand it, when a mold is old, or is being replaced with an updated versrion, the mold is destroyed and is no longer available. But that's not to say that the resulting part can't be brought out of retirement with a new mold. Nothing is "final"-- if LEGO thought it could make gobs of money by reproducing classic space motorcycle helmets, they'd do it, and you'd have discontinued parts being made again.

However, what they do want to do is stop producing a zillion different things all at once. That costs money. From what I understand, the big cost in injection molding is up-front cost. The initial cost of the machines and the time it takes to SET UP a production run. I heard from one person in a related field that it can take days or even weeks to set up a production run, making sure that everything's JUST RIGHT. Once it's set to go, it starts churning out elements at lightning speed, and each element's individual cost is virtually nil. You just have to recoup the cost of setting up the run.

As a result, you want to reduce the amount of preparation time that you're spending, because that's your big cost. So if your plans were to produce 100 million elements of 50 different types, that's WAY more expensive than producing 100 million of 20 different types. So LEGO looks to consolidate as many piece types as it can to save money. LEGO tries to design sets that are released in a similar timeframe with similar elements.

- Do designers REALLY have to stay within bounds of what is on the lines, or can a designer, if they have a reason for it, have TLG pull a part back into production/make one in a different color?

A designer "can" do effectively whatever they want. They're given a budget, an age range, and some guiding principles for each model they make. For example, they might be told they have to make a $30 set that's for 6-10 year olds, it has to be in the "Town" theme, and it has to be a fire truck. So, if they want to, they could go nuts and include an old spruce tree in there. Except that it would blow probably $25 of their budget, and the remaining $5 wouldn't buy you any sort of fire truck that any parent would buy for $30, and so marketing won't approve the model.

But that's an extreme example. A more realistic example might be that, you might have 10 1x3 red plates that have a cost of $0.05, and you're $0.20 over budget. So by switching to use a combination of 1x2 and 1x1 red plates that have a lower cost, you can bring down the cost to $0.03 over budget. And so forth. Designers will tweak again and again, often fighting against the ever-changing list of production elements, and the list of changing prices for those elements. A piece that was only $0.02 yesterday might suddenly jump to $0.08 today, because some other design group took it out of their model, meaning that it's no longer in production, and you're the only one using it, so your model has to eat up 100% of that up-front cost of the production run.

That said, though, you can do whatever you want as a designer. But elements that aren't already in production will cost you more, and eat up more of your budget-- so you have to be sparing.

- Does Bricklink/etc. have a list of discontinued parts?

Sort of. BrickLink and Peeron have inventories that you could use to determine when elements appeared in certain sets, which you could thereby use to determine when production was being done on those elements. Peeron will actually give you a visual representation of the in-production years for each color of an element, which is handy-- but its data isn't as up-to-date as BrickLink's. BrickLink doesn't present that data as comprehensively, but you could derive it if you felt up to the task.

And neither site will give you a comprehensive list of "discontinued" elements, because the definition of "discontinued" is extraordinarily unclear, and the resulting list would be so ridiculous that you probably wouldn't find it useful as a list. Typically, the question would be "is piece X in color Y still available?", and then you look through that element's particular list of sets to get an idea of the history of the element.

DaveE

[Cinderbike]

Thanks for the (rather comprehensive) reply, Dave.

[Arigomi]

  Bringing back pieces in a different color is one of the easier things a designer can petition for. As long as enough sets are using the mold and it's in the approved color palette for the year, making a part in a new color is feasible. The Creator sets use this strategy a lot to keep them budget-friendly while still presenting something of interest.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Arigomi

[antp]

We're safe to assume that certain parts, like those from outdated themes like Fabuland, are no longer being produced,

And even in such case, you can have surprise. When they made Mickey sets in 2000, they reused some Fabuland parts of the 80s

[jonwil]

One thing I always wondered is how they decide whether to use an old piece design or whether to create a similar but not identical new piece design.