The clone brands discussion...again

[Superkalle]

It seems our friends over at BrickForge has now started selling ordinary elements, such as this lamppost:

It's going to be interesting to see how this affects that age old question: Is it OK with clone brands in a LEGO MOC. And if so, is it OK to use BrickForge and such, but not MegaBloks?

The discussion rages on....

[Omicron]

BrickForge is custom products made for just not Lego, but also Mega Bloks. BrickForge (and also other custom vendors like BrickArms), solely make products for the purpose of complimenting your set or minifigs.

Mega Bloks is a competitor to the Lego brand, and like most competitors, they are frowned on.

BrickForge compliments. Mega Bloks competes. Don't confuse the two together. Also Lego recognizes BF and the products they make.

-Omi

[The Green Brick Giant]

My problem with Mega Bloks is that they suck. They don't connect correctly and just are useless "building blocks". However with LEGOs quality recently the difference between the brands is shrinking.

I have no problems with clone brands, I have a few from another company that I kept because LEGO doesn't make the piece. If the helps you build a MOC better than who cares what brand it is.

Those lamp posts look really nice.

[Superkalle]

BrickForge compliments. Mega Bloks competes. Don't confuse the two together. Also Lego recognizes BF and the products they make.

I wasn't primarliy refering to the business situation, but the use of parts in MOCs from various suppliers.

I think the topic is intresting because to my knowledge it's the first time that one of the small manufacturers (BrickForge, Brick Arms etc) have made ordinary LEGO-like elements.

[Aanchir]

I wasn't primarliy refering to the business situation, but the use of parts in MOCs from various suppliers.

I think the topic is intresting because to my knowledge it's the first time that one of the small manufacturers (BrickForge, Brick Arms etc) have made ordinary LEGO-like elements.

I don't see how the lamppost is much different than Brickforge's earlier offerings. The only difference is that it's a structural element rather than a detail element, and I don't see how that makes a difference in how "valid" the parts are.

Whether you can use Brickforge parts depends on personal preference, just as it always has. Same goes for MegaBloks or other clone-brand parts. Unless a contest has specific rules limiting your part choice, then the decision is entirely up to the MOCist.

And I'm saying these things from the perspective of a purist. I myself would never use a custom part in most of my MOCs. But that doesn't mean that there are overarching "rules" of how LEGO toys are supposed to be played with. The freedom to do what you want with them-- and the versatility that makes that possible-- is part of what makes LEGO bricks so special.

[Peppermint_M]

*Words that cause peppermint to wake up*

Oooo that's a doozy. I agree on the compliment point, but then I argue that my clone brand collection is to compliment my Lego collection. In the end, I buy a set for a cool weapon or minifigure part that TLG doesn't make, I shop on brickforge for a cool weapon or minifigure part that TLG doesn't make.

The bottom line is that a custom parts maker is not setting itself up in competition to TLG but a compatable brick brand is. Fans have mixed feelings on custom products but there is a near universal rejection of all clone products (clone is also a term I disagree with)

I do not agree with the "no clones but custom parts are ok" rules in contests because there seems to be no rhyme or reason other than many fans have issue with competing brands.

An argument for the ages. If a custom producer decides to go turn into a competing brand buy either making or sourcing bricks from a high quality manufacturer, what would the community think?

I guess in the end it is all a personal choice and no one has any right to enforce their view on the community as a whole, they can just make it known what their standpoint is and leave it at that (I am a firm believer in seeing all sides to a story and coming to conclusions and opinions after careful research) let others make their judgement.

Disclaimer: This is by no means an opinion shared by the Staff of Eurobricks, the members or an other associated hangers on. It is mine.

[Big Cam]

Since I know this will just turn into an opinion of opinions thread, I will just ad my thoughts and everyone can agree, disagree or just not read it.

The good thing is it's short.

I think that brickforge and brickarms are custom pieces made of equal if not superior quality than LEGO, where Mega Bloks or any clone brand is an inferior direct competitor. Therefore even if these customizers do start making custom (regular) pieces, I still view it as a custom piece, not a clone competitor piece.

[RileyC]

I think pieces from BrickForge can supplement the areas that Lego look over. This isnt a bad thing because it just adds variety to the field. They arent clone brands as such because they arent trying to rip Lego of their idea like some clone brads blatantly do. Me, Im a purist with Lego and most other things. I like to use and have things the way they were intended to be. Though I admire people like BrickForge for providing these items for other people that love the true to life pieces.

[Skalldyr]

or just not read it.

I just not read it!

But I totaly agree.....The quality makes the difference!

[vexorian]

I really see no difference between clone brands and custom makers sans their advertisement models. And that was before that lamp thing. I think that as time progresses, our custom makers will get more and more into clone brand territory with time.

Quality? There are good and bad clones, there are good and bad customs.

Edited November 9, 2010 by vexorian

[Brickdoctor]

I don't think it matters since it's not a copy of an official part. It's not like they're making 2x4s or something. Lots of people use MegaBloks for minifig customization because they offer pieces TLG doesn't. And most builders don't want to go farther than that just because then their creations wouldn't look like LEGO.

[prateek]

I use "clone brands" a lot actually. They are great for accessories that aren't available from Lego. I don't have any experience with the "complimentary companies" so I can't comment on them, but they do seem good.

[Modulex Guy]

BrickArms, BrickForge, AmazingArmory, etc. etc. Are NOT clone brands, but customizers and accessory producers.

A clone brand would be one that has exact or similar products to LEGO rather than a complimentary element. BA and BF do not make for example 2x4 bricks like Tyco, Coby, MB makes, they make parts as a complimentary part for existing LEGO, not direct competition to TLG.

I have no problems using these parts for my MOCs, its fun to spice up a MOC with some cool parts that LEGO will probably never consider producing.

[Superkalle]

Well, in my mind the introduction of a more structural element by BrickForge, makes a huge difference. Before it was only minifig accessories, weapons etc. And that was fine, because its use was limited mostly to minifig customisers (I'm probably going to get flamed now ). But now, we're talking a new type Lego-like elements.

Let me give an example: Let's say that the BrickForge lamppost is accepted to use in a MOC. Now, what if Megabloks also have Lamppost that they have designed themselves (just like BrickForge). Would we accept the BrickForge and not the Megabloks one.

[Modulex Guy]

I again do not think of the Lamp post as a big deal.

As a matter of fact, I'll be ordering those lamp posts soon because they are better than LEGO, there is the ability to incorporate LED lighting into them while LEGO does not have a hole to do so.

I do not modify LEGO bricks and do not want to drill out my lamp posts, but have no problem using this alternative.

I believe the lamp post is made for those of us who want light up MOCs and cannot/will not modify LEGO parts to do so.

Again, complimentary element, not direct competition.

[Aanchir]

Well, in my mind the introduction of a more structural element by BrickForge, makes a huge difference. Before it was only minifig accessories, weapons etc. And that was fine, because its use was limited mostly to minifig customisers (I'm probably going to get flamed now ). But now, we're talking a new type Lego-like elements.

Let me give an example: Let's say that the BrickForge lamppost is accepted to use in a MOC. Now, what if Megabloks also have Lamppost that they have designed themselves (just like BrickForge). Would we accept the BrickForge and not the Megabloks one.

It depends on what "we" you're referring to. As I said, there is no solitary "authority" governing what is or isn't legal in a MOC. Contest entrants, convention participants, and even website users have to adhere to the demands of whatever authority is involved. And those authorities will vary widely on what is or isn't acceptable, based on various factors.

The Brickfair conventions I have been to in the Washington, D.C. area have all had a rule about "clone brands" not being permissible. An annual LEGO contest held in a small city near my college has no such rule-- it's common to see clone brands there, sometimes even mixed with actual LEGO. Obviously Eurobricks favors LEGO products, but it has always accepted clone brands in the Community subforum and customizers' parts in the MCW subforum. The "main forums" have also had their share of custom or clone elements, although used as detail pieces for the most part.

Your question seems to be based on a "slippery slope" argument. I'm not trying to dismiss this argument as a fallacy-- there is a slope present, and it may or may not be slippery. But the fact is that Eurobricks at least maintains complete control over the situation. If it becomes a problem, Eurobricks could very easily stop it right then and there with a change in the forum rules. But one lamppost that has yet to be used in any posted MOCs certainly does not pose a problem. In certain contexts perhaps nipping the issue in the bud would be the ideal solution, but Eurobricks being a controlled environment, there is no way that this could have unmanageable consequences if we choose to wait and see how things progress.

[Superkalle]

@ Aanchir: I'm not sure how EB came into the discussion. By "we" I meant the AFOL community at large. And naturally you're right, every contest organizer can decide what they want.

I guess I just wanted to point at an interesting development of our Lego hobby and the potential consequences.

[fred67]

Your question seems to be based on a "slippery slope" argument. I'm not trying to dismiss this argument as a fallacy-- there is a slope present, and it may or may not be slippery.

Well, I had a huge reply typed out, but wanted to make it short and simple: I think the thing is that we shouldn't stop giving small businesses like BrickArms and BrickForge a pass, as they fill a niche that LEGO can't or won't fill, and I've make a number of orders from both and have been very satisfied.

But the bottom line is that Megabloks also offers things that LEGO does not; their minifigures are different and, in some ways, superior - especially (but not limited to) the Halo ones - they are more detailed and more articulate than LEGO minifigures. Don't get me wrong, I personally only have one from a long time ago, and I love how customizable my LEGO minifigures are even just using "official" parts, but the fact is they are similar, like BrickForge swords and helmets, but different, which adds merit to their existence.

And while megabloks also has bricks that are nearly identical to LEGO bricks, they also offer bricks (like double sided plates) that LEGO does not offer.

Ultimately I think the problem is that a lot of us are too much "fan boys" for the products we've selected and make excuses to denigrate and berate companies like megabloks while happily accepting companies like BrickForge and BrickArms.

If I could draw a conclusion, it's that we should stop belittling Megabloks and accept that they are a worthy player (and add value to) the "brick market," the same way we have for BrickArms and BrickForge. Slippery slope indeed... I think the criteria should be if the company or product adds value to our brick worlds, and all of the companies I've mentioned so far do. A company like Enlighten may not, but surely Megabloks does.

On a final note, while I won't buy those lampposts, the fact is they are offering something TLG does not... lampposts that are designed to be able to use actual lights. Many users have previously been drilling out LEGO lampposts in order to achieve the same effect. I'm preferring, at the moment, to experiment with brick built lampposts (see the upcoming Diagon Alley for a good example). But I guess what I'm saying is these lampposts can replace the LEGO ones, it's true... but the LEGO ones can't replace these, and that gives them merit.

@ Aanchir: I'm not sure how EB came into the discussion. By "we" I meant the AFOL community at large. And naturally you're right, every contest organizer can decide what they want.

I guess I just wanted to point at an interesting development of our Lego hobby and the potential consequences.

What happens with products that BrickForge came out with first? They offered Spartan/Hoplite weapons and armor first; they offer sheep - a lot of the products I'm not sure about, like dwarf beards, but what happens if LEGO introduces a centaur or sheep?

Edited November 10, 2010 by fred67

[Omicron]

The Brickfair conventions I have been to in the Washington, D.C. area have all had a rule about "clone brands" not being permissible.

But Todd does permit the use of custom items.

And some clone brands were in use anyways at Bfair. :P

-Omi

[The Green Brick Giant]

But who really cares what the "AFOL community" at large does. If someone wants to use a Mega Blok piece and it makes the set look better than more power to them. If the community doesn't like it then whatever, it's not their MOC.

[Superkalle]

Ultimately I think the problem is that a lot of us are too much "fan boys" for the products we've selected and make excuses to denigrate and berate companies like megabloks while happily accepting companies like BrickForge and BrickArms.

You put that in really good words!

But who really cares what the "AFOL community" at large does. If someone wants to use a Mega Blok piece and it makes the set look better than more power to them. If the community doesn't like it then whatever, it's not their MOC.

That's a fair point!

[alois]

What is a clone anyway? Aren't Lego bricks itself a clone of Kiddicraft bricks? With many enhancements afterwards, granted, but still originally a clone.

[vexorian]

Every brand that uses LEGO's brick dimensions, copies the interlocking, adds minifigures and presents itself as a competitor, and designs its own sets and parts is a LEGO clone.

Brands that altogether copy LEGO's (or a clone brand's) designs with most likely very low quality plastic and awful color variations are boot legs.

Companies that make new molds but are advertised as an extension/customization to LEGO are customs.

--

Kiddicraft just made a couple of brick things but LEGO made the bricks into the interlocking good with a whole construction system including SNOT pieces, accessories and minifigs that it is today.

But the bottom line is that Megabloks also offers things that LEGO does not; their minifigures are different and, in some ways, superior - especially (but not limited to) the Halo ones - they are more detailed and more articulate than LEGO minifigures.

New, superior minifigs featuring: The uncanny valley, a lack of building, lack of usability of a fig's pieces elsewhere, the same resistance to damage any low tier action figure has and a level of detail that makes them look out of place whenever they are next to anything brick built!

Edited December 10, 2010 by vexorian

[alois]

What is a clone anyway?

Every brand that uses LEGO's brick dimensions, copies the interlocking, adds minifigures and presents itself as a competitor, and designs its own sets and parts is a LEGO clone.

Brands that altogether copy LEGO's (or a clone brand's) designs with most likely very low quality plastic and awful color variations are boot legs.

Companies that make new molds but are advertised as an extension/customization to LEGO are customs.

It was a rhetorical question

[BrickArtist]

Heres what I think of when I think of clones and non-clones. Brick-forge is NOT putting lego down, a company producing minifig hair, weapons, and a small amount of simple bricks will never compete lego, it needs lego to survive. With no lego there is no brickforge, brickarms, or custom shop(they dont mass produce simple bricks). Mega-Blocks, however, mass produces cheaper, lower quality bricks. They make minifigs, simple bricks, wheels and stuff like that. Most custom shops have a primary focus, arealight is star wars, brickarms is guns, and Brick forge is medieval weaponry. Arealight is the only store that is closer to a clone brand, they make minifigs from scratch, using lego dimensions (I still love area-light though). What it comes down to is weather or not the company needs lego to survive. Custom shops and non-clone brands do, while mega-blocks and clone brands dont.