American Civil War

[Khorne]

Who of you finds the American Civil War an interesting subject, I know xwingyoda and hobbes do, but are there others?

Which side would you've favored? What do you think are the best generals (of the American Civil War)?

[Deinonychus]

I was born, raised, and spent the first 22 years of my life in Richmond, Virginia, so it's pretty obvious where my loyalites would have taken me :-D

But I have leanred over the years not to try and explain why or offer justification for what would be my choice to side with the Seperatists because of the woeful lack of historical education in the United States and the fact that the discussion usually degenerates into a finger-pointing screaming match about the morality of slavery :|

But as to the Generals, without a doubt the best was Robert E. Lee, probably followed close second by Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson. The Union had quite the cadre of inept leaders, but U.S. Grant was definatly the only Union general capable of taking the fight to Lee and keeping it there, and that's probably why he was the one who finally managed to wear the Army of Northern Virginia down to the point where defeating Lee was possible.

[Sting]

Maybe it is due to the fact I am Canadian... but I would be on the side of the Union.

Because Canada didn't have the same history as the US(We never had strong 'state' governments like the USA did back than)... and because we were still part of the British Empire unlike the United States was... we disbanded Slavery early and it never became a very important Economic Factor like it did the South.

But I think a strong central government is a better way to make a country work. (Maybe my history lessons are off... but isnt one of the reasons for the Civil War was that the South wanted a stronger State Government as opposed to a stronger National Government?) And obviously I'm against slavery and racism... I hope it is because I am a compassionate person who does not feel greater than anyone based on race/creed/ect but who knows if I was alive 150 years ago...

Its just a shame that today the Confederate Flag(what is the name of it?) is always considered a symbol of Racism and Slavery... it has alot more to it than that!

As for who had the better Generals... I do not know enough about this.

I really hope that I don't come across as an ignorant jerk. I am actually just a graduate trying to remember something from his Grade 10 American History class :D. If I am wrong correct me because I love History.

[Deinonychus]

Damn...a Canadian knows more about the American Civil War then most Americans |-D

Its just a shame that today the Confederate Flag(what is the name of it?) is always considered a symbol of Racism and Slavery... it has alot more to it than that!

And I feel the same way. What you're referring to (KhoRne's Avatar) is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, or more simply the Confederate Battle Flag...which is totally different from the Confederate Nation Flag or the Stars and Bars.

Funny thing though, what KhoRne has up there is the actual battle flag because it's the square variety. The standard sized rectangular flag version you see most of the time on the backs of pick-up-trucks in Alabama and widley vilified as a symbol of rasism, stirring up contreversy wherever it's flown, is actually the Confederate Naval Jack. History is funny ain't it

[Sting]

Damn...a Canadian knows more about the American Civil War then most Americans  |-D

LoL. I wish. My knowledge is very thin actually... We only did a very fast overview of each area of American History in grade 10 and I remember it in a thin layer as opposed to bits and pieces!

(Do you guys even have the option to take a Canadian History in High School? Every grade 10 History class in Winnipeg is American History... except it is optional so 80% of the students didn't take it... but I knew better ahaha)

It fascinates me, American History. Not because Canadian History is boring(there just isn't as many wars!) but because all the AMerican stuff is on a grander, more epic scale. Canadian History has its fair share of little battles and divisions but as you can tell(we never had a Civil War lol) it isn't as big.

Damn I should Major in North American History...

[Khorne]

I favour the Confederates over the Union. I know their ideals are Pro-Slavery and Racism but not all of the generals stood behind this. At some battles, there were even black people in the Confederate armies (more towards the end of the war, but hey were there). The best generals the South had were ofcourse as mentioned, Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson.

The Confederate States of America (CSA) had more than one flag. First you have the "Stars and Bars" flag which shows 7 stars, the stars of the original separtists. Secondly you have the "Stainless Flag" a white flag with the "Navy Jack" in the corner (this one had 13 stars). Third, you had another just like the "Stainless FLag" but this one had a right bar on the right.

[dviddy]

The American Civil War is by far the most fascinating moment in American History.

And I would definitely have been a Reb. Slavery was a non-issue, until Lincoln, the crafty politician he was, turned it into one. Sadly, it's remembered by most as -the- issue the Civil War was fought over. Quite a shame, considering on their original principles, the Confederates were right, to a point at least. Their government would never have worked, it was too loose, and unorganized. But as the United States was originally just a union of seperate 'states,' or political bodies, the Confederates should have been able to withdraw. They had to wait to be let in, they should have been able to leave.

Political science is so much fun in America. Two major political parties, who have very little distinction compared to parties in Europe. In America, both parties want the same thing, they argue on the 'how'. Very unlike most European party divisions.

And Lee was amazing. And Grant, while a brilliant general, was a crappy President.

<<DV>>

[Sting]

At some battles, there were even black people in the Confederate armies (more towards the end of the war, but hey were there)

Wasn't this only because the Confederates were losing badly and would take up anyone who could fight? I heard at this point they were recruiting older men and even kids as young as 14 or 15(Im not 100% sure of the age but they were going younger than 18).

Now, I am not 100% sure... but didn't Lincoln only end slavery because he knew it would cripple the South during the war years? If I recall I read a quote where Lincoln said if he could end the war without ending slavery he would do it. Again... just things I am remembering from American History.

What were the main reasons for the Civil War? State vs Federal Government I know was one... I think Slavery became an issue later in the war but it wasn't an initial factor I dont think...

I wish there was a "What-If" article I could read that would give a prediction on what would have happened if the Confederates won the civil war. It would be very interesting...

[Deinonychus]

Do you guys even have the option to take a Canadian History in High School?

Aside from stuff about the French/Indian War and some little border skirmish between Maine and New Brunswick (possibly over maple syrup...I don't remember :P ) no, we didn't learn all that much about Canada. But probably for the reason you stated...History is mainly boring politics inbetween periods of interesting armed conflict

[Hobbes]

As a kid I favored the Union. Mostly because blue is my favorite color but also because the rebs looked more like a chaotic bunch than an army to me :)

Today I'm not sure which side I would've favored, to be honest.

As for generals: Lee sure was a great strategist and a charismatic leader. But I think a lot of credit for his success also needs to go to Gen. Longstreet. Without him, I think, Lee would have made more mistakes - which he did at Gettysburg.

On the Union side there were just too many and only Grant stood out as a man capable of leading an army that size. If you look at the first two years the Union didn't have a chance, just chaos! Especially Antietam stood out as a desaster...

If it hadn't been for Lee's mistake at Gettysburg (I'm referring to the attack famous as "Pickett's Charge") and his men's inability to conquer Little Round Top I don't think the feds would have had any chance to "turn this thing around".

Then again, I don't know that much about it ;)

[Deinonychus]

If it hadn't been for Lee's mistake at Gettysburg (I'm referring to the attack famous as "Pickett's Charge") and his men's inability to conquer Little Round Top I don't think the feds would have had any chance to "turn this thing around".

BAH! I blame JEB Stuart!

Galavanting around the countryside when he shold have been watching Meade's army :P

[JINZONINGEN73]

It was a pretty interesting period.

It was one of the last times TRULY that war was fought by Americans where technology wasn't all over the place in some way.

The civil war brought about tin cans & long-lasting food (after a few mistakes of non-pasteurization).

It grosses my wife out, but I also find interesting that soldiers carried tins around with maggots, to place in their wounds and eat only the dead flesh. Hey, it's only as gross as your imagination allows it.

Didn't the Civil war also bring about submarines?

I'd be likely on the confederate side. I'm not saying it'd have been the RIGHT choice, but I sympathize with them more. Here they are, finally free from Europe and BAM! ...it looks like their own country is starting to emulate them.

I believe a strong central government is the way to go, but I also hypocritically see the benefits of 2 competitive entities attempting to "outdo" each other.

Sting Posted on Nov 22 2005, 04:48 PM

Now, I am not 100% sure... but didn't Lincoln only end slavery because he knew it would cripple the South during the war years? If I recall I read a quote where Lincoln said if he could end the war without ending slavery he would do it.

[WesternOutlaw]

Who of you finds the American Civil War an interesting subject, I know xwingyoda and hobbes do, but are there others?

Which side would you've favored? What do you think are the best generals (of the American Civil War)?

Definitely. I would love to see Lego build some Civil War sets - esp. confederate soldiers. We should petition Lego!

But I'd have to go with the Union - won't get in to politics.

Both armies had some great generals; but unfortunately, it was American vs. American, which is probably the saddest time in American history.

Check this out (Brickshelf find - not mine)

Also check out the Wild West reviews and other related posts in the Castles & Pirates Forum.

Here's a link to some pic reviews I did recently and a few MOCs. Wild West Pic Reviews

[Deinonychus]

Sting Posted on Nov 22 2005, 04:48 PM

Now, I am not 100% sure... but didn't Lincoln only end slavery because he knew it would cripple the South during the war years? If I recall I read a quote where Lincoln said if he could end the war without ending slavery he would do it. 

I never heard that myself, but whether you're wrong or right, it is interesting enough to go and find out.

I say that because when I was taught the Civil war in High School, it was ALL about freeing slaves, with little to no mention of everything else.

And that seemed just a bit fishy to me.

There's a little truth to this...

Essentially what happend was, in the early part of the war, things were going very bad for the Union. Lee's army was winning victory after victory, and pushing the Army of the Potomac further away from Richmond with every confrontation. Public support for continuing the war started to wane slightly with many in the North beginning to think that if the Southern States wanted to become their own country that bad, the United States should just let them. Lincoln, however, had an unshakable resolve and needed a way to re-energize the poulace. By emphasizing the point that the South held other men in bondage, and through victory the United States could end that practice and free a people, Lincoln knew he could keep support for the war going because he knew Americans understand what it means to want to be free, even despite skin color or origin.

As a broad illustration of this new "talking point" on the war, Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclamation. He sat on the document until the time was right politically, which would be a Union victory in a major battle. The bloody stalemate at Antietam in September of 1862 (7,640 dead in one day, making it the bloodiest single day of the war) afforded the best chance. Shortly after the battle on September 22, Lincoln issued the Proclamation which in effect freed all the slaves in the Southern States. The Proclamation was hailed as a triumph of human freedom and served to cement in many Americans' minds that this was now a war to end slavery and not just a war to preserve the Union. The "political" aspect comes in because had the United States not gone on to win the war almost three years later, the Proclamation would have been meaningless, and it essentially was until victory was achieved.

That's about the long and short of it

[JINZONINGEN73]

Wow.

I'm wondering if he actually said that quote for quote though. Imagine if the union kicked butt and managed to end the war without needing that reason.

Black people would probably still be set back by about 30 or more years than whites.

If not longer. :|