Project: Programs to allow interactions between old Lego Control Interfaces (RCX, Lego Interface B, others?)

[Bliss]

5 hours ago, AJB2K3 said:

You can’t if you don’t have a serial adapter for the phone

As I tested previously and successfully, it is very possible with a bluetooth to serial adapter.

See:

 

and:

 

Edited Friday at 02:15 PM by Bliss

[Wapata]

Yes, a Bluetooth one should be the better choice here. I'll keep the cable for the old computer without Bluetooth.

If I did have BT on both, the BT-TTL will be soldered inside the interface-B 

[Bliss]

Ok, here is a little something new:

The Lego Interface B Online Blockly is now Installable on your PC (Windows, Linux, OSX etc).
It should run offline, without internet (have not tested it without internet yet).

It runs as a standalone app without address bar etc.

But to install, you must at least connect to internet once to go to the my blockly page and click on this little icon in the address bar:

 

[Wapata]

You know what ? You did a great job here ... Waw 

[Toastie]

15 hours ago, Bliss said:

The Lego Interface B Online Blockly is now Installable on your PC (Windows, Linux, OSX etc).
It should run offline, without internet (have not tested it without internet yet).

@Bliss

For me, this is a dream coming true!!!

For the very first time, I have successfully "programmed" Interface B - and this was done using your Blockly app, which I downloaded an hour ago as per your instructions. So far I have just trying things out with LEGO's Control Lab software without getting anywhere - the learning curve there is rather steep - for me. I am also simply not good with Logo ... something in my brain refuses to grasp the logic. Well I guess more frequent programming hours and Logo will become logic as well; after all, all programming languages share at least some of the same logic 

However, the principle logic behind your Blockly code just connected directly to my brain ... I will have a lot to learn, but this is fun.   

It is just amazing when realizing how elegant and easy it is to get it going! Instead of generating a "Hello world" printout or having the program count from one to one hundred, I made a very simple program, that monitors input B of 9751 and then turns on/off the outputs B and F (as they are in one "column"). In fact, I was doing that using my Control Center II (CC, red output operated by keys A and B) connected with my lill opto coupler interface as briefly described here (this is @amine's idea!):

This is "My First 9751 Program" using your code - please bear with me, it is certainly horrible, but it works:

  

This program turns on/off 9751's outputs B and F depending on the raw data value at input 2:

When I press button A on Control Center (CC), 9751's output B is turned on, and F off. Button B on CC turns output B on 9751 off and output F on. No button pressed on CC = both outputs B/F on 9751 off. I do visualize this with 9V lamps, this is why I use two 9751 outputs (B is for fwd, F for rev). This is not necessary when "recording" CC key sequences; this is what @amine is looking for, I believe: Storing longer than 50 or so programming steps for a CC model operated with 9751, but using the CC as keypad with is nice big yellow dial and two A/B buttons.      

@amine you'll love this, it works like a charm!

@Bliss For now only one question: When I do not include the "wait 0.001" seconds at the end of the "repeat while true" loop, the program stalls at once. This is absolutely normal behavior, right? With that delay, the response of pressing buttons A/B on CC and B/F lights going on/off on 9751 is almost immediately, this is so impressive!!! The input data have to be received over the BT serial line, processed, and the response has to be sent back over the same connection! Wow.    

Thank you very much for sharing this phenomenal achievement!!!

All the best
Thorsten

[amine]

24 minutes ago, Toastie said:

@Bliss

For me, this is a dream coming true!!!

For the very first time, I have successfully "programmed" Interface B - and this was done using your Blockly app, which I downloaded an hour ago as per your instructions. So far I have just trying things out with LEGO's Control Lab software without getting anywhere - the learning curve there is rather steep - for me. I am also simply not good with Logo ... something in my brain refuses to grasp the logic. Well I guess more frequent programming hours and Logo will become logic as well; after all, all programming languages share at least some of the same logic 

However, the principle logic behind your Blockly code just connected directly to my brain ... I will have a lot to learn, but this is fun.   

It is just amazing when realizing how elegant and easy it is to get it going! Instead of generating a "Hello world" printout or having the program count from one to one hundred, I made a very simple program, that monitors input B of 9751 and then turns on/off the outputs B and F (as they are in one "column"). In fact, I was doing that using my Control Center II (CC, red output operated by keys A and B) connected with my lill opto coupler interface as briefly described here (this is @amine's idea!):

This is "My First 9751 Program" using your code - please bear with me, it is certainly horrible, but it works:

  

This program turns on/off 9751's outputs B and F depending on the raw data value at input 2:

When I press button A on Control Center (CC), 9751's output B is turned on, and F off. Button B on CC turns output B on 9751 off and output F on. No button pressed on CC = both outputs B/F on 9751 off. I do visualize this with 9V lamps, this is why I use two 9751 outputs (B is for fwd, F for rev). This is not necessary when "recording" CC key sequences; this is what @amine is looking for, I believe: Storing longer than 50 or so programming steps for a CC model operated with 9751, but using the CC as keypad with is nice big yellow dial and two A/B buttons.      

@amine you'll love this, it works like a charm!

@Bliss For now only one question: When I do not include the "wait 0.001" seconds at the end of the "repeat while true" loop, the program stalls at once. This is absolutely normal behavior, right? With that delay, the response of pressing buttons A/B on CC and B/F lights going on/off on 9751 is almost immediately, this is so impressive!!! The input data have to be received over the BT serial line, processed, and the response has to be sent back over the same connection! Wow.    

Thank you very much for sharing this phenomenal achievement!!!

All the best
Thorsten

I absolutely need to translate that in french if possible.

There is anoter benefit of using cc with the control lab, I didn't realize it first but control lab has 8 outputs  then you should be able to control more than 3 motors with your CC.

 

Edited 20 hours ago by amine

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, amine said:

There is anoter benefit of using cc with the control lab, I didn't realize it first but control lab has 8 outputs  then you should be able to control more than 3 motors with your CC.

Or use two CCs - that would be cool as well!

Best
Thorsten

[Wapata]

I briefly read that the program can react to CC Midi messages...  It doesn't (yet) lol 

[Bliss]

4 hours ago, Toastie said:

...For me, this is a dream coming true!!!...

This is "My First 9751 Program" using your code - please bear with me, it is certainly horrible, but it works...

@Bliss For now only one question: When I do not include the "wait 0.001" seconds at the end of the "repeat while true" loop, the program stalls at once. This is absolutely normal behavior, right? With that delay, the response of pressing buttons A/B on CC and B/F lights going on/off on 9751 is almost immediately, this is so impressive!!! The input data have to be received over the BT serial line, processed, and the response has to be sent back over the same connection! Wow.    

 

@Toastie,

That makes me very happy to know that my Blockly project can help some people realize some dreams :-)

I think you did a very good program.  It's intuitive and visually tells what it does.

You're right about forever loops, a small wait is required to leave the UI some time to manage things I guess...  I'll look after that if it could be implicit...
But for now, it's the way to do.

And actually, your program gave me the idea to add a new comparison block:  A block that outputs True if Input number between min and max number which would replace the bunch of <= and >= and the "AND" blocks you merged to achieve this result.

You talk about the Control Center CC and got me curious about this...  I don't know what it does...  So I'm going to read about this equipment.

So, do I understand you tested quite a few things with the Lego Blockly? :

- You used the installable feature to install the standalone version to work offline?
- You used a BT to Serial Converter?

Thanks for the good words.

 

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Bliss said:

That makes me very happy to know that my Blockly project can help some people realize some dreams :-)

@Bliss it IS really like that.

It took me about 30 min from "installing" your standalone version (it is really just clicking on "download" on your website and double-click the newly crated desktop shortcut icon), connect to Interface B (which was a mouse click), getting familiar with the environment, left/right mouse buttons, the gear icon, trash bin, and - beginning programming!

As said, I looked into the Control Lab (DOS) software - this must have been a blast (and for me still is today) back in the 1990's, as it creates a graphical UI and unleashes the programming power of Logo. However, the Logo program control flow was hard to grasp - for me that is. 

Interface B (9751) is "just" an 8-channel output driver and an 8-channel sensor (raw and encoded) data provider. So is - partly - Interface A (9750). The big difference is that 9751 spits out the sensor data, like it or not, an 9750 wants to be polled. And of course serial vs parallel is another big challange on vintage machines. 

In other words: Computer control of 9751 (for me) was so far reading input data and pressing buttons to operate the outputs using QBasic. The real power of any input/output device is the "controller" in between. Which is in case of 9751 and 9750 the connected computer. And which is different for PBricks, as they want to be programmed to take over the controller task.

This has now totally changed, as I can use 9751 as a controlled (via your software) device. That is so unbelievably cool.

1 hour ago, Bliss said:

But for now, it's the way to do.

I believe it is the right way to do! This is how it is done elsewhere. The user can decide, when the UI/program needs to breathe! There should maybe a hint in doing so. But I have crashed so many programs on Arduinos and ESPs simply by cutting off their breathing ... 

1 hour ago, Bliss said:

And actually, your program gave me the idea to add a new comparison block:  A block that outputs True if Input number between min and max number which would replace the bunch of <= and >= and the "AND" blocks you merged to achieve this result.

That would make things easier, as this is a frequently encountered situation, when working with raw input data. I am aware that "automated" on/off values are making things easier, but there are so many hardware issues that may happen: Touch sensor contacts simply age. Never to the extent that they don't work anymore, but to the extent that built-in software thresholds for on/off with hysteresis shift so much, that they seem not working anymore. This is why I prefer the raw data ("value" in your code) mode for sensors whenever feasible. It is more flexible.

1 hour ago, Bliss said:

So, do I understand you tested quite a few things with the Lego Blockly?

I am testing like a maniac - as I am simply so positively fired up!

I added the good old "Sensor_2_old" variable (as I do in so many of my QBasic programs to avoid loop execution if not required):

If var_old != var then
   var_old = var
   do something using var (or var_old)
else
   wait some time
endif

This reduces traffic on the serial bus (output data) - which may not be any issue on modern computers but frequently is on vintage machines ...     

1 hour ago, Bliss said:

- You used the installable feature to install the standalone version to work offline?
- You used a BT to Serial Converter?

Yes and yes.

The BT adapter is a simple HC05 + TTL to serial adapter duo (out of 3 that I am using with my LEGO interfaces in addition to a BOLUTEK BT to serial adapter) - they are all nicely lining up in the "connect" dialogue window of your Blockly UI. It is so easy to connect to any of them!!!

1 hour ago, Bliss said:

Thanks for the good words.

You know, they are certainly not sufficient, but what should I say: I really believe that I am dreaming!

All the best and thank you very much for creating this programming environment
Thorsten 

Edited 14 hours ago by Toastie

[Bliss]

7 hours ago, Toastie said:

If var_old != var then
   var_old = var
   do something using var (or var_old)
else
   wait some time
endif

This reduces traffic on the serial bus (output data) - which may not be any issue on modern computers but frequently is on vintage machines ...     

This is good programming.

Your first version is intuitive too, but it could send same commands to serial every scan we might think.  But I also did some output commands caching in the code (FOR LEGO INTERFACE B ONLY NOT RCX YET) that prevents sending same consecutive commands.
There are a couple of exceptions like the REVERSE command which I cannot cache, so care must be taken when using it.

 

I added the "Is Between" block in the logic category.

To update, you must go online with chome on my page.  Check in the logic category if you see the new  [ ] <= [ ] <= [ ] block.  If not, To force page refresh, press Ctrl-Shift-R.
A banner should appear at the bottom with update button.

I'm improving this update thing (the bottom banner that appear gets the blockly scroll bars over it...  will be fixed soon).

 

It does (Sensor_2) > 20 AND (Sensor_2 < 200)

Note that the first number can be > than the last number.  for example, 200 < Sensor_2 < 20 which is equivalent to Sensor_2 >200 OR Sensor_2 < 20.

Edited 7 hours ago by Bliss

[Toastie]

10 minutes ago, Bliss said:

I added the "Is Between" block in the logic category.

So nice - update worked with one mouse click!

Regarding Control Center I/II (CC): Essentially it is a "closed" Siemens 680X microcontroller driven three 9V output (with no sensor inputs) device, which is recording output activation/deactivation sequences including the pauses in between. There are two programming slots and a total of some 50 steps. It has two keys A/B for output A (fwd/rev) and a yellow dial type button, which can activate any two outputs B/C in fwd/rev direction.  

@amine had the really cool idea of using CC's three outputs (ABC) connected to any three 9751 inputs as some sort of "key pad", and then record these key sequences. This way, 9751 is mimicking CC, but with way more programming steps available, in addition to program storage. CC can only hold one or two programs internally.        

Here is one thread on EB, there is so much more out there!

@amine's case is special - but nicely aligning with the idea of using old LEGO programmable devices with either old or modern computers.

Best
Thorsten 

[Bliss]

Now the Updates should be automatic when you go on the web page.  I removed the update button and banner...
(But for now, there is not new important updates)

Thanks for CC info!

Edited 12 hours ago by Bliss

[amine]

6 hours ago, Bliss said:

Now the Updates should be automatic when you go on the web page.  I removed the update button and banner...
(But for now, there is not new important updates)

Thanks for CC info!

I have translated in french the win 95 version of lego dacta control lab. You can make it to fit your own language with a bit of modding.The software is portable and works on win10. 

https://archive.org/details/clab_20260328

[AJB2K3]

Wow, looks so much cleaner than my attempt.

Sorry having a brain fail moment. Is the BT adapter acting as a bridge to pas the raw data from the interface to the host computer?

Edited 5 hours ago by AJB2K3

[Wapata]

Hello !

Can you please double check what does "set power 8" ? It look like it make the motor go back to "1"... 

 

And is there a Fast way to set back "who is who" after reloading a program ?

For the program at the beginning of the post, i need to click on aaaall the "No Lego B" to put them back to "Lego B1" for example.

Edited 4 hours ago by Wapata

[Toastie]

2 hours ago, Wapata said:

For the program at the beginning of the post, i need to click on aaaall the "No Lego B" to put them back to "Lego B1" for example.

Here is what I do: Once I have programmed a (test)version of any program (with 9751 turned off/lost connection), I save the programit, turn 9751 on/reconnect, load the last program saved and all "No LEGO B" change automatically back to "LEGO B1".

Best,
Thorsten   

3 hours ago, AJB2K3 said:

Is the BT adapter acting as a bridge to pas the raw data from the interface to the host computer?

Yes, and it is used to send back the output commands to the interface. In essence, it just replaces a serial cable:

(Win11+built-in BT) <-> (BT2TTL adapter + TTL2Serial adapter). I also have this BT2Ser adapter with no need to do extra TTL2Ser conversion, works as well.

Best
Thorsten

[AJB2K3]

7 minutes ago, Toastie said:

Here is what I do: Once I have programmed a (test)version of any program (with 9751 turned off/lost connection), I save the programit, turn 9751 on/reconnect, load the last program saved and all "No LEGO B" change automatically back to "LEGO B1".

Best,
Thorsten   

Yes, and it is used to send back the output commands to the interface. In essence, it just replaces a serial cable:

(Win11+built-in BT) <-> (BT2TTL adapter + TTL2Serial adapter). I also have this BT2Ser adapter with no need to do extra TTL2Ser conversion, works as well.

Best
Thorsten

thanks