Lyev Lion Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, Maddock Monkey said: Volunteering to be framed is tacitly volunteering not to be investigated, on a night when there are three investigators in play. I wouldn't be surprised if we never had this setup again, or at least not for several days. If you're scum and you can avoid being investigated tonight, you clear a pretty high hurdle. Yes exactly. We could put it to vote as someone suggested?
Fergus Fox Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 2 hours ago, Lyev Lion said: Ugh I don't see anything good coming out of a framer role. And if you don't use it it'll be used anyway. Probably best to use it and then tell who you used it on in the mornig. I didn't say what would happen if I don't use it. Guess you're just going off what the great book says. I think there's less opportunity for confusion or manipulation by the scum if we agree who the framer target should be before the end of the day. 1 hour ago, Lyev Lion said: One thing though, if the framers settle on a target together publicly, then everyone should definitely stay away from that person. What if scum had a watcher? Fuck me. Too overpowered so probably not the case but still. If the investigation ability is a one-shot, a watcher should be a threat, right? 2 hours ago, Caylin Cow said: So the first claim of framer. I'm not surprised the role is compulsive. The only way we could be sure is if we designate a person the investigators investigate and hopefully everyone lives and reports back. But I doubt that will happen, and I doubt it's a good idea, as everyone would know who the target is. 1 hour ago, Caylin Cow said: I propose a suggestion! As Princess of FABUrealms I move to have a second vote. We all do our normal lynch votes but we also vote for who our investigative target is, in an unofficial tally. Why are you still going down this route? 1 hour ago, Wyeth Walrus said: Now, I judge I’ve been wrong before, and could just be being paranoid, so I’d appreciate others looking over Hendricks words and letting everyone know what they see. Am I jumping at shadows or is there a case to be made against the hippo. Perhaps I’ve overlooked something. Couple of things to note. First, Horsiepoo suggested that framers should declare so that they can be held accountable suggests that he knew it was compulsive. Accountable for what? They could choose not to use it, as I would have done (i.e. not use it) if it were not compulsive. If not used, there would be nothing to be held accountable for. He said something later about not knowing why it didn't occur to him that the role was compulsive. 3 hours ago, Hendrick Horse said: The reason the framers should claim is so that they can be held accountable. If someone is investigated and lynched under false pretenses then we'll know either the investigator was a dud, or one of the framers was lying. ALSO if a framer fails to claim at this juncture and is later revealed to have been the recipient of the ability, then we can be assured of their scumminess. Second, I also noted that he was quick to be the frame target and so avoid investigation. Where is our second framer?? 5 minutes ago, Fergus Fox said: If the investigation ability is a one-shot, a watcher should be a threat, right? sorry, this was meant to say should not be a threat.
Maddock Monkey Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 @Calissa Cat@Keyarra Crocodile@Priella Pig@Shanley Sheepdog is the second framer one of you? 26 minutes ago, Fergus Fox said: I didn't say what would happen if I don't use it. Elaborate?
Caylin Cow Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 38 minutes ago, Hayleigh Hippo said: Oh dear, such a loss must be a great burden to bear. Er, um, I mean, I'm so sorry for your loss! I'm Hayleigh Hippo, Mistress of Coin. We've known each other for years, I'm sure you're just distracted by your recent trauma and forgot. I'm not a bear, I'm a cow. And pleasure to meet you! 35 minutes ago, Lyev Lion said: Yes exactly. We could put it to vote as someone suggested? What a fine idea. Who's the lovely creature who suggested that? 21 minutes ago, Fergus Fox said: Why are you still going down this route? Where is our second framer?? What route? I stated my corrections an hour ago, which you conveniently left out, and you didn't post between my two posts you quoted. So I'm not going down that route still. That's what you call fake news, pumpkin. I must ask if asking for the second framer to claim screams bad news bears to anyone? Wait. Why do we keep going back to bears? There are no bears here. Unless... Anymoo back to the topic at hoof, is it really a good idea, especially if it's possible the framer is scum? And we are still waiting for some other friends to speak up more. I don't even remember their names. As Princess of the FABUrealms, I command you to speak and voice your opinions. I have milk for y'all if you do.
Hayleigh Hippo Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Caylin Cow said: Why do we keep going back to bears? There are no bears here. Your husband, the prince, was a bear. I felt bad for saying saying that his loss must be a lot to bear, but you didn't get it, so now I have to say it again to explain. Are you an alien infiltrator confused?
Evren Elephant Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 54 minutes ago, Lyev Lion said: Yes exactly. We could put it to vote as someone suggested? If we are going to vote on framing, my vote right now is anyone except our resident motormouth horse.
Caylin Cow Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 15 minutes ago, Hayleigh Hippo said: Your husband, the prince, was a bear. I felt bad for saying saying that his loss must be a lot to bear, but you didn't get it, so now I have to say it again to explain. Are you an alien infiltrator confused? Well we have no bears anymore. It must be the PTSD of losing him. Also, I have a condition! That's why I seem confused.
Wyeth Walrus Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 2 hours ago, Hendrick Horse said: 2. I like that you're trying not to be scummy. That's a very townie thing to say. Suspicious wording aside I volunteered to save time and because it was my idea for which I'd be content taking responsibility. Also I personally can't think of anyone I'd rather see in the position. It is perhaps rather selfish of me, but I'd rather see someone who's affiliation I don't already know be looked into Urf! Omfgus? It’s not you knowing your affliation we care about. It’s us knowing it. 2 hours ago, Hayleigh Hippo said: I do think that Hendrick is suspicious. Did you mean a case to be made against the horse? As an actual hippo, confusing him for one is insulting to one or both of us, I'm not sure which. Apologies. i judge I got horse and hippo mixed up.
Wyeth Walrus Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 Urf! Have dome the maths based on Horsey’s claim of three scum, there’s a 19.5% chance all five one shot roles went to townies. I judge this will bite us tomorrow
Maddock Monkey Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 Really? I got 7/33. On the other hand, counting is hard.
Hendrick Horse Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 2 hours ago, Pembroke Panda said: Speaking of complete, how completely insane is it to volunteer to be targeted by both framers but then insist on not being investigated That's some super suspicious "volunteer" work right there. Again, I volunteered because I wanted to save time and avoid failing to come up with a singular target, which would only benefit the scum. Now that my volunteering has caused such an upset, which I understand, I'm more inclined to have someone else be the designated target. 2 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: Volunteering to be framed is tacitly volunteering not to be investigated, on a night when there are three investigators in play. I wouldn't be surprised if we never had this setup again, or at least not for several days. If you're scum and you can avoid being investigated tonight, you clear a pretty high hurdle. That's... honestly pretty smart. Now I wish I was scum! To be clear though, I was operating under the assumption that the Trickster's ability is strategic and they choose to give out whichever roles benefit them the most by keeping their enemy teams (us and the scum) balanced out. I have no clue what else they have up their sleeve and kinda assumed we'd be seeing more investigatorial roles doled out anyways. I don't actually see there as being a hurdle here to overcome and I'm not sure why you're so convinced there is. What makes you think we won't see a similar setup anytime soon? What makes you think we don't also just have a normal investigator on our side if we DON'T get the oneshots every night? I kinda assumed that those volunteering to be targeted would get investigated on other nights. Volunteering to be framed was in no way intended to clear me from suspicion. I do like your number idea though. We should go forward with that. 2 hours ago, Fergus Fox said: Couple of things to note. First, Horsiepoo suggested that framers should declare so that they can be held accountable suggests that he knew it was compulsive. Accountable for what? They could choose not to use it, as I would have done (i.e. not use it) if it were not compulsive. If not used, there would be nothing to be held accountable for. By that I meant that their intended inaction could be publicly known so that they could be taken to take for it if they were caught lying. 1 hour ago, Wyeth Walrus said: Urf! Omfgus? Hardly. *adjusts glasses* To put my historian horse hat on, I seem to recall a certain ancient warrior named Scubacarrot or something of the sort from an ancient tome in the anals of history capturing some disguised fiendish foes, much like we have here, by judging their stated thought processes. In this tome he noted that one of his "allies" was in fact nothing of the sort due to his fears of "appearing too scummy" I couldn't help but feel a slight ticking on my scumdar prickling on my beautiful mane hairs when I heard you speak in such a similar manner.
Shanley Sheepdog Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 - bark bark bark bark bark bark bark - I am not the second framer. So it seems Hendricks Horse wants to be the target of the farmer tonight. If he is town I see no problem but if he is scum it allows him to bypass an investigation result. - bark bark bark bark bark bark bark- I approve of the Lion’s idea by having a second unofficial vote for who the farmer chooses to target. I don’t see the scum being able to manipulate the way that vote goes. - bark bark bark bark bark - It is vital that the investigators know who the framer’s target will be. 3 hours ago, Hendrick Horse said: What makes you think we don't also just have a normal investigator on our side if we DON'T get the oneshots every night? So we’d have 4 investigations tonight?
Keyarra Crocodile Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 5 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: @Calissa Cat@Keyarra Crocodile@Priella Pig@Shanley Sheepdog is the second framer one of you? Elaborate? Not I, although I do wonder whether we really need to be planning the framing ahead of time? Does that help at all? If both framers are town, then they can just tell us tomorrow. If a framer is scum, then they are likely to lie about their action, whether they claim it today or tomorrow or not at all. None of this planning seems particularly helpful, honestly it is all a bit of a mess and quite the trap I feel if we try to rely too heavily on the results of all this framing and investigating ... there will be some useful information tomorrow, but with no way to tell it apart from the fake information with any degree of confidence. They don't call this person the Twizzler for nothing! Hendrick, I don't follow why having the framers target the same person is helpful at all. We have no way of confirming that they have even done so, one or both could very easily lie about it. 3 hours ago, Hendrick Horse said: To be clear though, I was operating under the assumption that the Trickster's ability is strategic and they choose to give out whichever roles benefit them the most by keeping their enemy teams (us and the scum) balanced out. I have no clue what else they have up their sleeve and kinda assumed we'd be seeing more investigatorial roles doled out anyways. I don't actually see there as being a hurdle here to overcome and I'm not sure why you're so convinced there is. What makes you think we won't see a similar setup anytime soon? What makes you think we don't also just have a normal investigator on our side if we DON'T get the oneshots every night? I kinda assumed that those volunteering to be targeted would get investigated on other nights. Volunteering to be framed was in no way intended to clear me from suspicion. You ... think the Twizzler knows all of our alignments? I don't think so.
Lyev Lion Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 7 hours ago, Fergus Fox said: I didn't say what would happen if I don't use it. You said it was compulsive
Wyeth Walrus Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Keyarra Crocodile said: Not I, although I do wonder whether we really need to be planning the framing ahead of time? Does that help at all? If both framers are town, then they can just tell us tomorrow. If a framer is scum, then they are likely to lie about their action, whether they claim it today or tomorrow or not at all. None of this planning seems particularly helpful, honestly it is all a bit of a mess and quite the trap I feel if we try to rely too heavily on the results of all this framing and investigating ... there will be some useful information tomorrow, but with no way to tell it apart from the fake information with any degree of confidence. They don't call this person the Twizzler for nothing! Hendrick, I don't follow why having the framers target the same person is helpful at all. We have no way of confirming that they have even done so, one or both could very easily lie about it. You ... think the Twizzler knows all of our alignments? I don't think so. Urf! If the fwamews claim, and declare their targets the scum lose several avenues of attack. If an investigation comes back scum they’ll have an uphill battle suggesting they were framed (though yes it could have been the insane investigator). Equally they can’t point a finger at someone investigated town and claim they’re actually scum but framed, which is good for town clearance rate (again see insane). Basically, having framers claim and declare target takes them out of the calculation, your concern that there aren’t ways to tell what the framers do may not be entirely correct. Yes it’s possible Fergus or the other could be scum themselves and yes we can’t protect against all results. But the more that’s publicly known, the less the scum can lie about. I judge this to be worth taking the time to organise.
Priella Pig Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 We're all very talkative I see! 8 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: @Calissa Cat@Keyarra Crocodile@Priella Pig@Shanley Sheepdog is the second framer one of you? Elaborate? Alas, no. I'm not a framer. I don't think we should be telling people who should be investigated and whatnot. From what I gather, tomorrow the people with investigative actions will no longer have them so they can just come out and say the results they've found.
Lyev Lion Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 9 hours ago, Fergus Fox said: I didn't say what would happen if I don't use it. Hey can you self target? Would that be helpful?
Evren Elephant Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 9 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: @Calissa Cat@Keyarra Crocodile@Priella Pig@Shanley Sheepdog is the second framer one of you? Everyone tagged here except the cat has denied being the second framer so far, yet no one has publicly contested the idea of the framers claiming which leads me to believe we're increasingly likely to dealing with a hostile framer.
Hendrick Horse Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 3 hours ago, Shanley Sheepdog said: So we’d have 4 investigations tonight? Assuming we have no investigation oneshots other nights that could make sense but the point I was trying to make whether my speculation into the makeup of the town is well reasoned or not in that particular instance (4 does sound like a lot even considering one is bound to bewrong), is that we will likely continue to see investigation abilities. I can't imagine we'd get 2.5 on day one and then none again for several days. That sounds completely ridiculous to me. 4 hours ago, Keyarra Crocodile said: Hendrick, I don't follow why having the framers target the same person is helpful at all. We have no way of confirming that they have even done so, one or both could very easily lie about it. You ... think the Twizzler knows all of our alignments? I don't think so. The framer is an inherently anti-town role. Assuming the 2 framers are town they'll want to minimize the negative effects of their compulsory action. By not spreading their moves out they are less likely to confuse the investigators. By having them target someone who's identity is publicly known, they make it so that the investigators need not experience any interference at all. Letting them run rampant only benefits the scum! Also, when did I say the trickster knows anyone's alignment? They're playing a balancing game like an SK would, I assume. Also, yeah I too am getting concerned about the possibility that one of the framer abilities fell into the clutches of the scum, unless Calissa claims
Calissa Cat Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 Meow. A lot has happened since I last spoke. Meow. 12 hours ago, Wyeth Walrus said: There are then four results, all town - the insane hit a scum, a scum are one of those three. one scum - a regular investigator hit a scum or the insane picked a town. two scum - a regular investigator picked a scum AND the insane hit a town. three scum - both investigators picked scum AND the insane picked a town. I agree that it would be helpful for the investigators to give us their findings tomorrow, but I fear there are more variables than those listed here. We don't know what other roles are around within the town, if any, and we don't know what other actions the trickster may have. Additionally, we know the scum have a blocker, so any one of these roles could be blocked, and we're assuming that only town get the investigative actions here. If scum get one, what's to stop them saying they investigated another scum as town? That's rhetorical btw. Meow. 11 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: A poop in the hand is worth two on the floor. Do you have a poop obsession? 11 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: Or secretly tell 5 or so people after dark so statistically they end up contacting an investigator in case someone kills them in the night The framer might not contact the investigator who subsequently investigates the person they're planning to frame, and there's a reasonable chance they will contact a scum. If you're going to contact 5 random people who are all in a position to talk to anyone else they want that you can't control anyway, then you may as well just tell everyone. 11 hours ago, Caylin Cow said: So we could figure out who's crazy or not. I never said it was a good idea. I may have misread something I was responding to. Meow, sounds like you have a bit of the crazy, your highness. Meow. I think declaring investigative targets in public in advance is a terrible idea. We will get some results tomorrow and have to make the best of them, but even if the investigative target was agreed between only the investigators (impossible, even if we assume all the investigators are town) you still couldn't plan for random interference by the scum or the trickster. 8 hours ago, Hendrick Horse said: To be clear though, I was operating under the assumption that the Trickster's ability is strategic and they choose to give out whichever roles benefit them the most by keeping their enemy teams (us and the scum) balanced out. I have no clue what else they have up their sleeve and kinda assumed we'd be seeing more investigatorial roles doled out anyways. I was going to reference this, but you responded to Keyarra's post about it. 4 hours ago, Keyarra Crocodile said: You ... think the Twizzler knows all of our alignments? I don't think so. 16 minutes ago, Hendrick Horse said: Also, when did I say the trickster knows anyone's alignment? They're playing a balancing game like an SK would, I assume. I don't know how the trickster would be able to play a balancing game and be strategic if they don't know people's alignment. I don't think the trickster knows our alignments either, so your original statement doesn't make much sense to me. Meow. 4 hours ago, Shanley Sheepdog said: If he is town I see no problem but if he is scum it allows him to bypass an investigation result. Meow, smelly dog this is not exactly an insightful contribution in amongst all your noisy barking. Meow. 1 hour ago, Lyev Lion said: Hey can you self target? Would that be helpful? Apparently, no, self-targeting is not allowed: On 7/13/2020 at 1:31 AM, Hinckley said: 3.5. Players may not target the same player two nights in a row, and may not target themselves. Players may not target themselves, unless otherwise noted in your role PM. Players CAN target the same player two nights in a row. 45 minutes ago, Evren Elephant said: Everyone tagged here except the cat has denied being the second framer so far, yet no one has publicly contested the idea of the framers claiming which leads me to believe we're increasingly likely to dealing with a hostile framer. Meow, I am not the second framer, so I think we can safely assume someone has lied and that the scum have indeed received that action. I cannot see why a townie would lie about receiving a framing action; I would perhaps understand caution if it were another role, but not with a framer role. Meow.
Hayleigh Hippo Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Evren Elephant said: Everyone tagged here except the cat has denied being the second framer so far That simply isn't true. I never denied it, though I am now. I don't know if anyone else was missed in the process, but it might be worth checking. 17 minutes ago, Calissa Cat said: Apparently, no, self-targeting is not allowed The rule says that is true, unless otherwise noted in your role PM, so we can't assume that without confirmation from someone in that situation. To clarify, I'm not saying that everyone tagged had denied it, but that not everyone else has, and that should be looked into. I sort of misread it, but I'm glad because it brings up the question of why some people were tagged and not others when it's important to ask everyone. One more time! I'm not the second framer. Let's make sure everyone answers that. It's like clear writing is alien to me. Oh god!
Hendrick Horse Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 17 minutes ago, Calissa Cat said: I don't know how the trickster would be able to play a balancing game and be strategic if they don't know people's alignment. I don't think the trickster knows our alignments either, so your original statement doesn't make much sense to me. Meow. Having read many an historical tome regarding the natural of serial killers (serial killers are hot, ok? Sorry not sorry.), often they cannot win in their own twisted games without winnowing both factions down until they're the last furry standing. To get closest to their goal they must, without knowing who is who, attempt to balance the field throughout the game. That's the way it always is. I'm not sure why there's any confusion as to what I'm saying frankly. I must have articulated myself poorly I guess. Also huge bummer on the framer front. I'd still encourage the second framer to speak up if they were quiet for any reason, but if they're scum I can't imagine they'd reveal themself, so yeah... sounds to me like we have a scummy framer For the record I am also not the second Framer... if that wasn't excessively obvious.
Calissa Cat Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 11 minutes ago, Hayleigh Hippo said: The rule says that is true, unless otherwise noted in your role PM, so we can't assume that without confirmation from someone in that situation. Meow. That is a good point. Meow. 11 minutes ago, Hayleigh Hippo said: To clarify, I'm not saying that everyone tagged had denied it, but that not everyone else has, and that should be looked into. I sort of misread it, but I'm glad because it brings up the question of why some people were tagged and not others when it's important to ask everyone. Meow. I assumed that people would have seen the discussion and thought "Maybe it's Calissa, Keyarra, Priella or Shanley... NO WAIT IT'S ME!" and then claimed like we've all been asking them to, so even if people haven't been directly asked they would have known to claim? I mean, I know you misread it, but the actual second framer would maybe have had it more at the front of their mind even before the four of us were mentioned, wouldn't they? Meow. Just now, Hendrick Horse said: Having read many an historical tome regarding the natural of serial killers (serial killers are hot, ok? Sorry not sorry.), often they cannot win in their own twisted games without winnowing both factions down until they're the last furry standing. To get closest to their goal they must, without knowing who is who, attempt to balance the field throughout the game. That's the way it always is. I'm not sure why there's any confusion as to what I'm saying frankly. I must have articulated myself poorly I guess. Meow, no that makes sense actually now, thank you. Meow.
Fergus Fox Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 16 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: Elaborate? 8 hours ago, Lyev Lion said: You said it was compulsive I purposely didn't mention what would happen if I didn't act on it and I threw that comment out there to see what reactions I got, hoping that there might be some useful information in it. Just to confirm, it will be random if I don't action it. I have no intention of letting that happen, but am not sure who I would target at this stage. Probably not Horsiepoo or Crazy Cow. I like the idea of having a vote on who we should frame. 14 hours ago, Wyeth Walrus said: Have dome the maths based on Horsey’s claim of three scum, there’s a 19.5% chance all five one shot roles went to townies. 14 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: Really? I got 7/33. On the other hand, counting is hard. I outsourced the calcs to Fox Jnr and she came back with 15.9% (3/44). Whatever the number, it is not favourable. 7 hours ago, Lyev Lion said: Hey can you self target? Would that be helpful? No, I can't. I checked with our great captain already. 6 hours ago, Hendrick Horse said: Also, yeah I too am getting concerned about the possibility that one of the framer abilities fell into the clutches of the scum, unless Calissa claims Agreed. If they got the same role PM I did, then I don't see any reason for not claiming.
Hendrick Horse Posted July 14, 2020 Posted July 14, 2020 53 minutes ago, Fergus Fox said: I have no intention of letting that happen, but am not sure who I would target at this stage. Probably not Horsiepoo or Crazy Cow. I like the idea of having a vote on who we should frame. Yeah my volunteering wasn't the best way to resolve the issue and I realize that now. Did get the discussion moving though. I believe that Maddock had the right idea. Voting is rather excessive for a situation like this. 18 hours ago, Maddock Monkey said: Should we decide the frame target in a deterministic but not predetermined fashion? Suggestion: At some point the captain must post the first vote tally. Let us enumerate ourselves alphabetically, from zero (Calissa) to twelve (Wyeth). Then we take the number of the post containing the first vote tally modulo 13 and see who it is. This seems like a solid plan to me and I suggest we give it a shot. (sorry for format I'm on my CarrotPhone) I'd love to hear back from some folks as to whether they agree on this method of determining the frame target before I cast my vote, because once any of us votes a vote tally will be made shortly thereafter considering how on top of things our lovely quadripedal pig friend is, and it's better to be in agreement on using the tally post number to determine our target before we get said post as it removes bias. That said I'm ready to vote, and so far the one person who's struck me as the most reasonable candidate is Wyeth Walrus. Literally every point he made while responding to me insinuated that he was making an effort not to appear scummy. That's practically a confession in my book, and I'm not impressed with his actions outside of that one post either. The only other thing of note that he's done today was compile extant information. This isn't a scummy behavior inherently, and this is day one, but it is a decent way of appearing more useful without actually adding to the conversation. The only thing that's dissuading me atm from being 100% sure is the swiftness with which he jumped on me after I volunteered. That was a bold move... but one filled to the brim with scummy tells.
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