Why are short-lived themes so good?

[Lego David]

Usually when people think of popular lines, they may think Castle, Ninjago, Bionicle, Pirates etc, lines that lasted a very long time. But they also think about lines like Monster Fighters, Pharaoh's Quest, Atlantis, Power Miners etc, lines that lasted less than 2 years, yet they left an incredible impact (sometimes even grater impact than longer-lived lines did).

There is something about those short-lived lines that makes them so good, that people still remember and want them back to this day, despite their limited run-time. What do you think is that thing?

[MAB]

At the time, I don't think most of the one year themes were considered that good. Atlantis, Alien Conquest, Galaxy Squad and Pharaoh's Quest were available at a long time for very substantial discounts (50%+) here in the UK, and even MF had similar discounts for most sets, aside from The Zombies.

If we were still getting a mixture of one-year themes then I doubt people would remember the old ones so fondly. It is only since they went away that people appreciate them more. Of course, there are always some fans but, for example, Atlantis seemed to be enjoyed by as many people building historical or classical MOCs as it was by people that actually enjoyed the theme for what it was meant to be.

[Littleworlds]

I think a lot of the shorter-lived sets we AFOLs enjoy simply didn't prove so popular amongst TLG's target audience, which is kids. People socialized in the recent, 5 to 10 years or so certainly have different interests and preferences than folks in their 30s and 40s. We might like stuff like ancient egypt or classic-hollywood monsters. But children might have no concept about these things at all.

It looks like quite a steep challenge for adult set designers to get their heads around what kids like. Often enough though, they make something adults like 

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

Because when it comes to Lego, children and adults aren't on the same page and the targeted audience for Lego is children and Lego favors them over us. That's kinda why we don't see the things we want. But we have to deal with it. 

According to my insider friend who shall remain anonymous, AFOL has actually grown to 40% since 2009, but that's still not enough. Children are still the majority and Lego is a democracy. They're not going to do a lot for the minority (which are the AFOLs). They're going to target the people who give them money. Children.  

While I myself don't care for some of the things TLG does with certain themes (especially City), you can't deny that what we consider worse is actually what's helping them survive.

Hopefully that clears things up. 

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by pooda

[Lyichir]

I think a big factor is that the debut year of almost any theme (especially a "big bang" theme) often pulls out all the stops to offer an impressive, cohesive lineup of sets. By contrast, follow-up years (especially the final year of a multi-year theme) sometimes feel a bit stunted by comparison. Even some of the ones you mention (Atlantis and Power Miners) suffer from this phenomenon—their second years each offered a smaller and less "complete" feeling lineup of sets than their first. Single-year themes simply don't get the chance to experience this "decline".

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

4 hours ago, Lyichir said:

I think a big factor is that the debut year of almost any theme (especially a "big bang" theme) often pulls out all the stops to offer an impressive, cohesive lineup of sets. By contrast, follow-up years (especially the final year of a multi-year theme) sometimes feel a bit stunted by comparison. Even some of the ones you mention (Atlantis and Power Miners) suffer from this phenomenon—their second years each offered a smaller and less "complete" feeling lineup of sets than their first. Single-year themes simply don't get the chance to experience this "decline".

Do you think you can put subthemes under that equation too? Like the ones from City and Creator. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by pooda

[MAB]

31 minutes ago, pooda said:

Do you think you can put subthemes under that equation too? Like the ones from City and Creator. 

Probably not for City, as these tend to be quite similar in structure in terms of sets so a bit more formulaic - no matter what the subtheme is, there is usually a helicopter, a big truck, a small truck, some sort of base, etc. They seem to change the colour scheme but not that much else.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

1 minute ago, MAB said:

Probably not for City, as these tend to be quite similar in structure in terms of sets so a bit more formulaic - no matter what the subtheme is, there is usually a helicopter, a big truck, a small truck, some sort of base, etc. They seem to change the colour scheme but not that much else.

Oh no no no. I mean short lived subthemes, like Garage or Harbor or Cargo. You know, the idea of themes that are good, but were short lived. 

[Asajki]

15 hours ago, Lego David said:

Usually when people think of popular lines, they may think Castle, Ninjago, Bionicle, Pirates etc, lines that lasted a very long time. But they also think about lines like Monster Fighters, Pharaoh's Quest, Atlantis, Power Miners etc, lines that lasted less than 2 years, yet they left an incredible impact (sometimes even grater impact than longer-lived lines did).

There is something about those short-lived lines that makes them so good, that people still remember and want them back to this day, despite their limited run-time. What do you think is that thing?

Nostalgia 

Its a powerful thing, it makes people love the hideous trash that is world city

[Aanchir]

I think that in general, there's a tendency for communities like this one to perceive themes in a positive light the longer they've been gone. I definitely liked themes like Agents, Power Miners, Space Police 3, Atlantis, and Monster Fighters. But all of them were despised by a lot of AFOLs during their heyday.

If you asked many people about these themes back when they were first announced or released, they'd tell you the characters were too cartoonish, the vehicles were too oversized and unrealistic, the color schemes were too bright and garish, the scenarios were too violent, the play features were too childish, the storylines were not open-ended enough, they used too many chunky, overspecialized pieces, the genres were too much of a mish-mash, and in general they paled in comparison to predecessors like Rock Raiders, Space Police 1, Space Police 2, Aquazone, or Aqua Raiders.

In other words, to a lot of AFOLs they epitomized everything wrong with LEGO and/or everything wrong with the current generation of kids, and were a sign that the company was abandoning its values and/or making the same mistakes as they had in the late 90s and early 2000s. Basically, it was all the same type of reactions a lot of AFOLs have had to themes like Legends of Chima, Nexo Knights, and Hidden Side in more recent years.

You can look at some of the discussion threads here on Eurobricks if you don't believe me. Keep in mind the negativity usually doesn't hit a fever pitch until however many pages in people begin discussing actual pictures of the sets… up until that point it's mostly just speculation about what people want (or don't want) the sets to be like:

https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/14439-pics-of-the-agents-line/

https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/21117-power-miners-new-sets-for-2009/

https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/22997-space-police-2009/

https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/32226-atlantis-2010/

https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/62512-monster-fighters-2012/

Overall, I don't think the tendency to be wistful or nostalgic about past themes has anything to do with their length, more with how long it's been since they've been gone and/or how different they are from the current range of themes.

After all, plenty of people are intensely fond of and nostalgic for like Castle, Pirates, Fabuland, Adventurers, Racers, and Bionicle that ran for a considerably longer stretch of time. And conversely, there are lots of short-lived themes or subthemes that a lot of people DON'T tend to have the same widespread nostalgia for, such as Time Cruisers/Time Twisters, Extreme Team, Cyber Slam, Slizer/Throwbots, Roboriders, LEGO Island Xtreme Stunts, Dino Attack/Dino 2010, World Racers, and Ultra Agents.

In recent years there have been some folks suggesting that those older themes were so great and memorable BECAUSE they were short. But I think more often than not, the implication is really just that they want longer-running themes they dislike (e.g. Friends, Ninjago, Elves, Nexo Knights, or BrickHeadz) to go away already and make room for something different. After all, in most cases, fans of themes that only lasted a year or two don't WANT them to end so quickly, and saw that as a mistake, a missed opportunity, or a waste of the theme's potential.

9 hours ago, pooda said:

Because when it comes to Lego, children and adults aren't on the same page and the targeted audience for Lego is children and Lego favors them over us. That's kinda why we don't see the things we want. But we have to deal with it.

This explanation doesn't seem like it really holds up when you consider how many of us AFOLs don't agree on what we do or don't want to see from LEGO. Some of us love themes like LEGO Ninjago or LEGO Friends, and some of us hate them. Some of us greatly prefer non-licensed themes over licensed ones, and some of us are the opposite. Some of us love themes with compelling stories, and others think that those themes ruin the open-ended creative spirit of LEGO building and play

And there are definitely a lot of ways that LEGO is arguably targeting teen and adult buyers far more extensively than in the past, whether or not all those ways appeal to all AFOLs individually:

• introducing licenses that are perceived as less kid-friendly like The Simpsons, The Big Bang Theory, Overwatch, and Stranger Things
• creating more and more high-priced exclusive sets in themes like Star Wars, Creator Expert, and Technic
• launching products based on non-current movies and shows like Jurassic Park, Harry Potter, The Flintstones, and Voltron
• producing sets in themes like Architecture, BrickHeadz, Forma, and Ideas that are more intended as display pieces than playsets.

In fact, from the perspective of some AFOLs, LEGO is focusing TOO much on their older fans at the expense of children, even if there hasn't been any substantive evidence at this point that kids are losing interest in LEGO.

I definitely disagree with that kind of fearmongering, but I do feel like it's a mistake to assume that all the stuff that frustrates us about LEGO would get better if the company listened to AFOLs more. After all, "listening to AFOLs more" might've meant that themes many of us have enjoyed like the ones listed in the first post would've never been introduced to begin with, since when they first came out, the majority consensus among AFOLs seemed to be that they were kiddie garbage with little to no redeeming value.

[Pdaitabird]

4 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

And conversely, there are lots of short-lived themes or subthemes that a lot of people DON'T tend to have the same widespread nostalgia for, such as Time Cruisers/Time Twisters, Extreme Team, Cyber Slam, Slizer/Throwbots, Roboriders, LEGO Island Xtreme Stunts, Dino Attack/Dino 2010, World Racers, and Ultra Agents.

And let's not forget the abominations of Galidor and Jack Stone...on second thought, yes, let's forget them! 

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

@Aanchir All of that is very true. But understand fully, I did also acknowledge that the AFOL rate has grown and yes this is based on fact because.....like I said, I have an insider who shall remain anonymous for the sake of preventing issues. He stated that the number of OFOLs (I prefer to call them Older Fans Of Lego) has risen dramatically since 2009 (in which it was only 5%) to at least 40%. This however is still not enough. We're still a minority. 

Ok yes! You can mention the themes that you have mentioned in your statement. I'm going to go as far as to put some generic themes in there like Creator Modulars and Speed Champions - the latter of which seem to target more a teen audience than adults or children. 

I believe that while we are being listened to as older fans of Lego, we must at the same time come to understand that we are still a minority. That's why they don't give us everything that we want. Lego is in a way, what you call a Democracy. Majority rules. 

But c'mon! Even the sets that are geared towards children, we still tend to enjoy. So what's the big deal. I mean....yeah! I would like a few changes to my favorite theme - City. But all the same, overall, Lego does an awesome job in making sets that not only attract children, but adults as well.

10 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

In fact, from the perspective of some AFOLs, LEGO is focusing TOO much on their older fans at the expense of children, even if there hasn't been any substantive evidence at this point that kids are losing interest in LEGO.

As for THAT statement, those people are actually wrong. We can't blame Lego for that. The thing is....is that Lego makes sets that appeal to children and are intended to appeal to children. They just unintentionally tend to attract older audiences. The 2019 Fire wave, which was my favorite wave btw, was one of those. I've given and I have heard some positive feedback from older fans. I mean for the sake of Freya McCloud, who would've known that Lego would give you an actual burger bar. Not just a small piece. 

What I'm saying is.....I agree with you 100%. 

[Littleworlds]

Hmm, about the rise in AFOL-numbers... we of course are not the target audience for a lot of themes nevertheless. Rather Architecture and Creator Expert than Ninjago and Hidden Side, if you get my drift.  I'm quite happy with the distribution of sets and themes btw. With a bit of an open mind I think you can find something nice everywhere.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

25 minutes ago, Littleworlds said:

With a bit of an open mind I think you can find something nice everywhere.

Yeah....like this year's fire station and space center. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by pooda

[Lego David]

10 hours ago, pooda said:

But understand fully, I did also acknowledge that the AFOL rate has grown and yes this is based on fact because.....like I said, I have an insider who shall remain anonymous for the sake of preventing issues. He stated that the number of OFOLs (I prefer to call them Older Fans Of Lego) has risen dramatically since 2009 (in which it was only 5%) to at least 40%. This however is still not enough. We're still a minority

If it keeps growing at this rate, sooner or later AFOLs are going to be the majority.

[MAB]

14 hours ago, pooda said:

Oh no no no. I mean short lived subthemes, like Garage or Harbor or Cargo. You know, the idea of themes that are good, but were short lived. 

I was thinking about short lived subthemes - recent ones, like Arctic, Jungle, Deep Sea, Coast Guard, Volcano, etc.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

35 minutes ago, MAB said:

I was thinking about short lived subthemes - recent ones, like Arctic, Jungle, Deep Sea, Coast Guard, Volcano, etc.

Nah....those'll come back soon. I guarantee it. Especially Arctic and Coast Guard. They sell to well to be short lived. When it comes to sells, they're practically on the same level as Fire. 

When I think short lived, I think themes the we haven't seen in almost 9 years. 

47 minutes ago, Lego David said:

If it keeps growing at this rate, sooner or later AFOLs are going to be the majority.

I wouldn't call it an amazing rate. It took years and years to get to this level. If it were an alarming rate, we'd be a majority by now. 

[Peppermint_M]

I would say that some short lived themes hold appeal because they didn't have time to get stale/repetitive/boring.

[MAB]

3 hours ago, pooda said:

Nah....those'll come back soon. I guarantee it. Especially Arctic and Coast Guard. They sell to well to be short lived. When it comes to sells, they're practically on the same level as Fire. 

When I think short lived, I think themes the we haven't seen in almost 9 years. 

I wouldn't call it an amazing rate. It took years and years to get to this level. If it were an alarming rate, we'd be a majority by now. 

They are short lived though. They last one year. Similar ideas might be repeated again in 5-6 years time, but each incarnation of it is still short lived.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

37 minutes ago, MAB said:

They are short lived though. They last one year. Similar ideas might be repeated again in 5-6 years time, but each incarnation of it is still short lived.

That could be true! But I still see the arctic base sets on the shelves. Coast Guard comes every four years so I expect some new ones in the Summer or 2021. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by pooda

[MAB]

2 hours ago, pooda said:

That could be true! But I still see the arctic base sets on the shelves. Coast Guard comes every four years so I expect some new ones in the Summer or 2021. 

Even when Coast Guard has been and waiting to come back, then chances are there will be something with a boat / ship in between iterations of it. That was my earlier point, that even though sub-themes change within City, the types of vehicles within them remain fairly constant. There might be different colours or insignia, but the vehicles themselves are constant. So even though there are individual sub-themes that are short lived, they don't feel as short lived since the types of sets are repeated so often, almost yearly. This is where City sub-themes are quite different to the old one-year themes.

 

For example, this Volcano set:

 

Change the trans-orange to trans-blue and switch out the minifigures, and it is essentially an Arctic set just with lime green vehicles.

[Robert8]

This is so true

I loved UFO, Alien Conquest, Monster Fighters, Pharaoh's Quest and they all were short-lived

[AnyColourYouLike]

It's a very interesting case, as we would expect them to last longer, since they're that good...

Everyone seemed to be very excited about the Hidden Side sets, yet I heard they're already selling them 40 - 50% off. 

[Vindicare]

I loved the short lived themes around 2012. They had some great offerings & minifigs. 

On 10/25/2019 at 3:31 AM, Peppermint_M said:

I would say that some short lived themes hold appeal because they didn't have time to get stale/repetitive/boring.

That’s very likely a great point. I could see this being possible. I think, overall, these short lived themes didn’t have a dud in the bunch(I’m speaking of the more recent themes). 

[Peppermint_M]

On 10/25/2019 at 8:12 PM, AnyColourYouLike said:

I heard they're already selling them 40 - 50% off. 

That might be deals for Halloween, a few supermarkets in my area have them on a savings offer instead of any "special" set (Like the seasonal Trick or Treat, or Witch Brickheadz sets). Simple but effective marketing for the season.