Do you think current Lego city is not as good as those legoland 90s?

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

I won't stand for this. Every time I comment, I recieve flack. Why can't I have people be on the same page as I am for once? I never knew it was against the Eurobricks law to state how Lego could improve the City theme.

So much for there always being room for improvement. 

[KotZ]

1 minute ago, pooda said:

I won't stand for this. Every time I comment, I recieve flack. Why can't I have people be on the same page as I am for once? I never knew it was against the Eurobricks law to state how Lego could improve the City theme.

So much for there always being room for improvement. 

While I'm disagreeing with you on the conflict thing, that doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. In fact, I would love more City sets of other jobs and such, since I personally don't have very many City sets and would like to expand my collection of it, or get parts to make my own MOCs. I just personally think you're statement about child's play and conflict is wrong.

And yes, there is always room for improvement in sets and themes.

[Aanchir]

21 hours ago, Ron Dayes said:

Yes, Classic Town was better and more realistic

Why?

Just look at the amount of Jobs they portrayed back in those days. Anyone remember those Harbour Scenes, Cargo Ships etc?
And everything came in colours and parts you could reuse easily for other builds.
Also imo it was more Minifig scaled.
Now everything is really bloated, huge and expensive. TLG releases a lot of parts, yet not many in the "standard" colours.
A lot of vehicles included in sets dont look like real life counterparts or are super made up/dont exist.
And do we really need a new Police station like every year? ugh...

maybe kids need it these days like that - i mean they do the research.
But as an Afol, Classic Town offered much more, diverse areas and fields of play...

I feel like a lot of people tend to forget that the amount of representation given to categories people find lacking in today's City range were honestly also lacking back in the 90s. Naturally, it's easy in hindsight to remember the standout sets of that era (I have great nostalgia for them, as that was MY childhood!), but also easy to forget that a lot of those remarkable sets were the EXCEPTION for that time, not the norm.

I mean, people complain that we only get a new City hospital or medical care facility every six years or so. But there were NO LEGO Town hospital or medical care facilities in the 90s! In fact, the only two in the entire history of Classic Town were 6364 from 1980 and 6380 from 1987.

Houses were extremely common in the Town theme in the 80s, a far cry from City which has only really had one aside from prisoner hideouts. But not so much in the 90s. There was 6592 in 1990, 6552 in 1993, and 1854 (a Denmark-exclusive promotional set) and 1857 (an airline promo) in 1996. Better variety than the City theme, certainly… but keep in mind that unlike back then, the City theme has had Creator 3-in-1 theme (with numerous house sets) to complement it for nearly its entire duration, whereas the nearest equivalent to that theme in the 90s was Basic/FreeStyle, which tended towards basic brick assortments at a preschool building level.

How about Harbour? Well, there were two commercial harbours (6541 and 6542) in 1991 and one recreational harbour (6543) in 1994. But that was it for the entire history of the classic Town theme, really. aside from Police and Coast Guard sets. Those two commercial harbours were also the only two sets with cargo ships.

Restaurants? Not an impressive track record there either. 6376 and 6399 in 1990 and 6350 in 1994 were the main three examples over that decade, aside from the promotional McDonalds set in the later Town Jr. era. City's doing way better in this regard, with a donut shop, burger shack, coffeeshop, hot dog kiosk, and two pizzerias in just the past decade!

Shops? In the 90s Town range, it was mostly just gas stations, convenience stores, and mechanics. City has not only those, but also sporting goods stores, auto dealerships, toy stores, newsstands, and bike shops. Big improvement there!

Airports? The 90s had just two: 6396 in 1990 and 6597 in 1994. Certainly not any better than City's track record over the past decade in that regard.

Garbage/recycle trucks? Again, just two in the 90s (6564 and 6568).

Banks? Only one in a 90s Town set: 6566 from 1997. And only one other in the Town theme prior to the 90s: 1490 from 1988. City has had as many banks as the entire Classic Town theme in just the past nine years!

Buses and bus stations? There were ZERO in 90s Town sets, with the only example of either in the entire Classic Town theme being 379 from 1979. City has that beat by leaps and bounds!

Hotels? Only one in the entire history of the Town theme: 6390 from 1980.

Museums? ZERO in the entire history of the Town theme!

And the only sets depicting science-related careers during that period were in space– or arctic-related subthemes. When you consider those, I hardly see how there can be said to be more jobs on display in the 90s than in today's City range. In fact, I can't think of a single job/career depicted in 90s Town sets that isn't depicted in the current City range.

Overall, the Town theme in the 90s was pretty lacking in civilian stuff, and largely dominated by racing, construction, fire, and police sets. If the City theme today seems any more dominated by a few categories, it's only because the theme as a whole has grown, and the most popular subthemes among kids make up a lot of that growth. But even so, the variety of sets in the LEGO City theme is honestly a lot stronger in my eyes than it was back in the 90s!

20 hours ago, pooda said:

I agree with everything you said. 

Unfortunately, TLG doesn't. Its not really playability that was the secret ingredient as 20th Century City sets were pretty playable for it's time. That was when children knew how to play pretend without conflict. Today, it's the exact opposite. That's kinda why TLG does what they do. 

I don't feel like either mainstream trends in kids' entertainment OR trends in LEGO themes really support this notion that kids can no longer enjoy non-conflict-driven play. It also seems like a remarkably boy-centric perspective, considering how many sets and themes geared towards play scenarios that aren't conflict driven are either designed for or popular with girls.

Does the popularity of non-conflict-driven sets in themes like Creator, Friends, Speed Champions, Elves, Unikitty, The LEGO Movies, Technic, and even the City theme itself not count for anything? After all, I can't think of any City subthemes besides Police that are especially conflict-driven unless you extend the definition of "conflict" to comprise any examples of solving problems or overcoming obstacles.

For that matter, where were all the non-conflict-driven themes in the 90s (the period this topic relates to)? Because overall, I remember a considerable emphasis on conflict-driven play and storytelling in themes/subthemes like Space, Castle, Pirates, Western, Aquazone, Ninja, Adventurers, Time Cruisers, Cyber-Slam/Competition, Throwbots, etc.

Beyond that, the 90s is when LEGO Town and Duplo police sets started to introduce prison escapees and smugglers for the police to seek out and catch! Hardly the pinnacle of non-conflict-driven design philosophy.

13 hours ago, pooda said:

I won't stand for this. Every time I comment, I recieve flack. Why can't I have people be on the same page as I am for once? I never knew it was against the Eurobricks law to state how Lego could improve the City theme.

So much for there always being room for improvement. 

It's not "flack", it's discussion. You have an opinion on what's best for the City theme, but so do other people, and they have every right to disagree or find fault with your perspective as you do with theirs. You can't expect to jump into a discussion where people have already shared conflicting perspectives and expect your perspective to be universally agreed upon.

And anyhow, do you really think you're being individually singled out because people reply to your posts with their own contrary perspectives? Because from what I've seen, that is normal any time anybody shares an opinion on this site — including me!

And it's not just this site, either. I've posted threads in AFOLs of Facebook and other online LEGO fan communities asking fellow AFOLs relatively harmless questions like whether they have any LEGO characters they "ship" (i.e. think would make a cute couple), whether they would like to see more LGBTQ+ representation in LEGO sets, or even just sharing fun little bits of LEGO-related news like the LEGO Friends character redesigns or LEGO-related satire articles.

And yet, even such threads often devolve into massive and heated debates. In this day and age, even something as basic as writing a positive review of a set often results in hateful comments about the reviewer being a shill or the designer hating LEGO fans or some other such nonsense.

I'm not saying this is something we have to be OK with. It genuinely sucks that negativity so easily reaches a boiling point in this fandom. It has often driven me away from remaining active in certain communities, at least temporarily. But unfortunately, aside from creating and enforcing rules against hateful or discriminatory content, slander/libel, personal attacks, and/or discussion about politics and religion, there's not really much that can be done about negativity and disagreement on a more general level.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

@Ron Dayes I hate it when she feels the need to write long essays on why she disagrees with us. I wish she'd be straight to the point. 

11 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

And anyhow, do you really think you're being individually singled out because people reply to your posts with their own contrary perspectives? 

Uh....yes I do. 

11 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

And it's not just this site, either. 

Nope! Its just over here that happens. Anytime I criticize City, my views are agreed upon on other platforms. Not on this one though. 

....and must you write a long essay about why you disagree with us? No ones got time to read all that mess. 

[KotZ]

6 minutes ago, pooda said:

@Ron Dayes I hate it when she feels the need to write long essays on why she disagrees with us. I wish she'd be straight to the point. 

Some people are more verbose than others. Aanchir is certainly one of those. But she brings up good points.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

Just now, KotZ said:

But she brings up good points.

I bring up good points too. But I don't go into long explanations. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by pooda

[icm]

Hi, @Aanchir!  It's nice to have you back.  I appreciate every effort you make to articulate your thoughts in a rational, well-supported manner and to keep discussions positive and respectful.  Everything you say about the amount of representation of various themes and careers in Town and City is accurate, but I also agree with @pooda's assessment that the large annual presence of various police and exploration subthemes can overshadow the variety of other occupations in Lego City, such that it can seem like there aren't as many general, everyday kinds of jobs.

@pooda: Some people do have time to read and write long-form posts; that's why the post entry box has such rich capabilities for text formatting, picture display, and other functions.  Personally, I don't usually put in the effort to write a long response to most threads, but I always appreciate people who do.  Long posts help me learn things about Lego I didn't know before, and also help me appreciate attitudes, perceptions, and cultures I wouldn't otherwise be aware of.  That's what makes Eurobricks a forum. It's not just about agreeing or disagreeing with what people say.  That can be accomplished with Like and Dislike buttons, as on Facebook.  It's also about contributing to a discussion and showing why you think what you think.

Mods - I hope this isn't mini-modding?  If it is, please let me know.  Thanks.

Edited September 29, 2019 by icm

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

9 minutes ago, icm said:

.....but I also agree with @pooda's assessment that the large annual presence of various police and exploration subthemes can overshadow the variety of other occupations in Lego City, such that it can seem like there aren't as many general, everyday kinds of jobs.

I've also gotten the argument that police changes up every year to which I said "They're still police sets though". They're isn't a big picture to see here because the big picture is that they're still police sets. Fire sets don't even get that much attention. I don't even think I'd be wrong to say that regular police doesn't get as much attention as special police does. 

Of course children are going to go to the police and explorers sets if they're put out there like that. I mean what? Which one would you go to? The one that's out out there or the one that's in the shadows? 

I'm just the kind of guy that dislikes things that are overrated. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by pooda

[Peppermint_M]

@pooda, if you have such a problem with people not celebrating your every word, you are welcome to distance yourself from the discussion. If you start attacking other members in a manner that is personal (AKA, anything that is not related to the actual topic at hand) you will be welcome to have a private chat with staff about what rules you have broken.

 

And yep, this is flack. You are being a whiney brat.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

@Peppermint_M Police and Explorers is overrated. Case closed. 

Sorry. But.....I'm standing by that statement. 

[Peppermint_M]

5 minutes ago, pooda said:

@Peppermint_M Police and Explorers is overrated. Case closed. 

Sorry. But.....I'm standing by that statement. 

Ok, fine. But you will have to gracefully accept that others will disagree with you, it is not an attack against you or your opinions, just others not agreeing.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

37 minutes ago, Peppermint_M said:

Ok, fine. But you will have to gracefully accept that others will disagree with you, it is not an attack against you or your opinions, just others not agreeing.

Fine! I'll stuff it. 

EDIT: Scratch that. Explorers is awesome. Its just police. That one's overrated. 

I actually like arctic and space. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by pooda

[Aanchir]

5 hours ago, pooda said:

@Ron Dayes I hate it when she feels the need to write long essays on why she disagrees with us. I wish she'd be straight to the point.

If I felt like I could without that point being misunderstood or trivialized than I would. But when I spend as much time on posts as I have today, it's because the discussion has brought a lot of thoughts to mind, thoughts that can't just be summed up with "I agree" or "I disagree". Plus, just imagine how much more annoying all of these kinds of disagreements would be if it were just a bunch of people saying "no, YOU'RE wrong!" back and forth without making any kind of case for themselves!

It probably doesn't help that after becoming less active here and in other contentious LEGO-related discussions as of late, I'm out of practice… rambling is an easy habit to fall back into and I promise I'll try harder to keep things concise. But how easy that is might vary depending on the discussion.

I don't really expect to change anyone's mind about what they want to see in LEGO City or other themes, because that's all just personal opinion and doesn't need any sort of justification one way or another. But by explaining my own perspective I can hopefully at least help you and others understand that I have actual reasons for feeling differently, and that it's not just me embracing whatever LEGO does without any independent thoughts, desires, or preferences of my own!

2 hours ago, pooda said:

EDIT: Scratch that. Explorers is awesome. Its just police. That one's overrated. 

I actually like arctic and space. 

Space is a big favorite of mine as well! I was super into NASA and space exploration as a kid, so I was a big fan of the Launch Command sets. I'm really impressed with how some of the more recent City Space sets (and City sets in general) have caught up more with current tech like autonomous or remote-operated drones/rovers! Back in the 90s we only used to see that type of stuff in sci-fi themes like Space or Alpha Team, despite them being an increasingly big part of the world we live in, and being a big part of space exploration even in my childhood!

Arctic was never one I was quite so passionate about, but Arctic and Jungle related sets have definitely become a lot more interesting to me since they began introducing more of an emphasis on animals (whether modern or prehistoric)! It reminds me a lot of what I loved about the Divers sets as a kid.

I know a lot of City fans for a long time have desired a Zoo subtheme, but the biggest obstacle to that has remained how expensive it would be to introduce so many new animal molds all at once, let alone to release them at a reasonable price with multiple specialized animals per set! Even a full wave of any of LEGO's dinosaur themes has rarely included enough different species to believably populate a modern-day zoo.

But I think that the exploration based City sets are probably going to be very helpful in making a LEGO City zoo possible (at least for MOCists) by introducing animals at a more moderate pace, one biome at a time!

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

@Aanchir All of that is understandable dear. I'm sorry I was abrasive. It won't happen again. 

4 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Space is a big favorite of mine as well! I was super into NASA and space exploration as a kid, so I was a big fan of the Launch Command sets. I'm really impressed with how some of the more recent City Space sets (and City sets in general) have caught up more with current tech like autonomous or remote-operated drones/rovers! Back in the 90s we only used to see that type of stuff in sci-fi themes like Space or Alpha Team, despite them being an increasingly big part of the world we live in, and being a big part of space exploration even in my childhood!

I loved the launch command sets when I was a child. Whenever I see space sets, it reminds me of launch command and space port. I'm actually making plans to pick the space research center this week. That one is definable needed for my town. 

4 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Arctic was never one I was quite so passionate about, but Arctic and Jungle related sets have definitely become a lot more interesting to me since they began introducing more of an emphasis on animals (whether modern or prehistoric)! It reminds me a lot of what I loved about the Divers sets as a kid.

I think I only had one arctic set as a child and that was the base set. I love it when the artic sets come out. My only disappointment was that for the 2018 Arctic wave - there was no stationary base. The base set was on wheels. Guess I have to work with that one. Deep Sea Divers was good too. 

4 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

I know a lot of City fans for a long time have desired a Zoo subtheme, but the biggest obstacle to that has remained how expensive it would be to introduce so many new animal molds all at once, let alone to release them at a reasonable price with multiple specialized animals per set! Even a full wave of any of LEGO's dinosaur themes has rarely included enough different species to believably populate a modern-day zoo.

But I think that the exploration based City sets are probably going to be very helpful in making a LEGO City zoo possible (at least for MOCists) by introducing animals at a more moderate pace, one biome at a time!

LOL! I tell folks this all the time. We practically got a zoo theme with jungle. Mod the sets out for them to look like a zoo. They're called MOCs. 

But the theme I keep begging Lego to bring back under City is the Outback Enthusiast subtheme from 1997. That one was neat. 

I also wanted them to revive Extreme Team, but considering all of the stunt vehicles released under Great Vehicles, I guess City has already done that. 

 

Well once again, I apologize. I hope we can get along and become good friends. 

[Ron Dayes]

@pooda@Aanchir

Since i got tagged earlier in the discussion, i feel the need to join in, also to calm the heat a little.
Thanks to @Aanchir long winded and detailed write up (which is perfectly fine, i also tend to wind up with long texts usually on EB!). Everyone is free to share his opinion in any form, may it be a long text or just a short statement.
Further, thanks to naming also the Set numbers, I can only come to the conclusion that in the last decade TLG has had more Sets than classic town of certain type in:

-Museums
-Banks (actually, for quite some time TLG kept their products "money" and still "war free", the classic dollar bill being released in 1995, so why have banks?)
-Shops
-Bus Stations

But to be fair, in all other categories, the current City Series isnt very far advanced in concerning

-harbours
-civilian buildings
-Airports
-Hospitals

Now one could make a long list of modern and old sets and compare all of them with each other BUT. There is two important facts than can not be overlooked!
TLG now is one of the greated Toy producers world wide! They now have the financial status to hit out a new set in each category every year due to the high sales, coming in from multiple product lines, like Star Wars, Ninjago, licensed Disney etc
That wasnt the case before 2006! Before the 90ies even, there was no licensed themes! (I wouldnt count shell, maersk and others = promotional sets!)
So, that meant, some Sets had to be a somewhat a hit, cause each Set needed to make income. Nowadays, they can make do with a few flops, they survive easily.
Compare a Lego Section in a Toy store from 1989 to 2019 - Its more than double as many sets now availiable in total. Heck, there is a whole room full.
That furthermore also explains, why some sets from the past werent just a "1 year set", but were actually produced for a couple of years or intended to be in stores for a couple of years.
Therefore you cant really compare the amount of sets "today" (lets say 5 police stations in one decade) to the few police stations back before the milennia in 2 decades, if we are really honest!
One example:

6380 Hospital from 1987 is also still a 90ies set, since i got if from a Store as late as 1997 - Even in 2006 there was a always a few 90ies sets availiable in stores.
So a set was "longer" up to date at least store wise. Still they hit out new Sets each year in Classic Town, which seems even more impressive back then.

Yet, considering the financial status Lego had back then, they made a Town Palette thats quite diverse.
@Aanchir you also mention Sets containing "buildings" a lot, yet there is an even larger variety when it comes to VEHICLES since 1980. And thats the key point here.

The old strategy from TLG = classic Town. From the Legoland / Town Series or even the Early "Soccer" Town subtheme, you were able to obtain Sets that ONLY cointain a vehicle and a minifig to add on to your city:

-Highway Maintenance
-Telekom Bike Race Transport
- diverse Construction units, not a multi set, but literally "just a bulldozer". "just a "crane", just a "hauler".
- about 6 different Bussses in 3 Colours with individual Soccer teams (I admit, thats a far stretch, but its still a Bus and Town related)
- Civilian Cars in like one colour
- The Lego Truck
- shell gas truck
- lots of 4x4 vehicles
- just a few ambulance vehicles
Hell, i have so many individual sets with "just" a vehicle at home, its crazy. The list goes on...

The modern strategy of TLG is to have mainly "large sets", that contain like one or two vehicles next to a structure. Only Speed Champions allow you to buy a single Car unit.
Its true, City now pretty much has as many sets, if not even more than back in the 80ies.
BUT, if i just want to "add" to my city, a single Building, a single car, maybe 5 of them - now thats a lot harder these days. Speed champions are used for that, but thats not really City,
its supercars, like the racing product line. It doenst even fit the scale dimensions like the good old Classic Town vehicles certainly did.
You need to buy larger sets to complete the city, not a lot of individuality here. If a kid wanted to focus on construction only, you could buy him 10 bulldozers for a fair price....

Last example why i persoanlly think Town is still superior = how real it looks!

Classic Fire Station 1981 Set 6382  vs Modern Fire Station from 2013

the first one looks like a real building you could see in your Suburb, the modern Set looks like the toy it is. It doesnt get better after 2013...
Its a real shame they use these "blue" windows all the time since the 90ies. Gosh, the 80ies had such great trans clear parts...or are your windows at home blue?

90ies Police HQ vs 2011 Police HQ

The first is allready "modern'ish", but most Police Stations are somewhat an experimental 70ies lots of glass building.
Whilst the modern thing, i mean, does it look like a real building even? Is that a Prison Motel?

Or take a look at this gem: Old, yes, but building wise, looks realsitic, doenst it? Your average 70ies Building 1976 Police HQ

with modern techniques, part access i think TLG could pull of realistic looking buildings (much like the modulars, just less 1800s detail mania), but apparently for kids this stuff sells better as it is now. Yet, as an Afol, i cant stop scratching my head over this. To be fair, we can just build our own stuff. yet if an AFOL claims that the new Sets are super amazing, i can just say: look around irl...is that realistic? The only good thing the modern sets have is advanced play features, but thats the toy intention behind it. Back in a day, lego was a downsized realistic looking suburbian world in bright colours, now its like an "action" theme. Unrealistic looking, but maybe more fun to play with.

Its a personal opinion after all, but the nostalgic vibe isnt just because we loved them when we were kids - they are also really appealing because they represent the real world a lot more "truthful".

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

4 minutes ago, Ron Dayes said:

 

TLG now is one of the greated Toy producers world wide! They now have the financial status to hit out a new set in each category every year due to the high sales, coming in from multiple product lines, like Star Wars, Ninjago, licensed Disney etc

Exactly. 

4 minutes ago, Ron Dayes said:

Nowadays, they can make do with a few flops, they survive easily.
 

Yeah! That's why I can now say with confidence that if City diverts from police for one year, it won't do any damage.

Little side note: Not saying that children are stupid, but they most likely won't question the fact that there wasn't a new police theme released. 

[MAB]

11 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I know a lot of City fans for a long time have desired a Zoo subtheme, but the biggest obstacle to that has remained how expensive it would be to introduce so many new animal molds all at once, let alone to release them at a reasonable price with multiple specialized animals per set! Even a full wave of any of LEGO's dinosaur themes has rarely included enough different species to believably populate a modern-day zoo.

There is another problem with a zoo subtheme and that is the view of zoos has changed over the years. I wonder if LEGO took this on board, as they haven't released a zoo theme (where the animals are actually caged / fenced in) since 2012 in DUPLO, where they were relatively common in the mid noughties. If they were to do one in LEGO, it wouldn't surprise me if the animals were "free range" or on safari and visitors are in tour buses.

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Ron Dayes said:

 

The modern strategy of TLG is to have mainly "large sets", that contain like one or two vehicles next to a structure. Only Speed Champions allow you to buy a single Car unit.
Its true, City now pretty much has as many sets, if not even more than back in the 80ies.
BUT, if i just want to "add" to my city, a single Building, a single car, maybe 5 of them - now thats a lot harder these days. Speed champions are used for that, but thats not really City,
its supercars, like the racing product line. It doenst even fit the scale dimensions like the good old Classic Town vehicles certainly did.
You need to buy larger sets to complete the city, not a lot of individuality here. If a kid wanted to focus on construction only, you could buy him 10 bulldozers for a fair price....

 

I don't get this argument at all. There are loads of sets in the City theme with a single vehicle.

So here is your single bulldozer equivalent (2019):

or a garbage truck for clearing up the mess (2019):

Fire trucks, choice of two for younger or older kids (both 2019):

 

You need more police (2019):

 

or some adventure? (2019):

 

Of course, these are not just the vehicle as kids like to have a minifigure to drive the bulldozer or empty the trash or whatever, and there is a tiny piece of scenery to make the set a standalone toy, or an addition to a bigger collection.

 

Plus the way kids get and consume LEGO has changed a lot these days. Magazines are fairly common, with "free" polybags on the front, so for example things like this often get added to kids' collections:

 

It is true that there are not many civilian cars, but then I find my kids don't play with that many at once anyway.  A couple of civilian cars, plus a whole fleet of police, fire trucks, etc is unrealistic for real life, but for kids is fairly normal. City civilians must be boring compared to emergency workers based on what LEGO releases - but that is/was also true in other themes like Castle. Unlike in Friends, where there is  much more based on regular civilian life.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by MAB

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

11 minutes ago, MAB said:

I don't get this argument at all. There are loads of sets in the City theme with a single vehicle.

I do have to agree there considering that great vehicles has been around since 2012. 

Side note: TLG, please make a school bus for City. I want to see one! jumps up and down and screams. Just kidding! But all jokes aside, I wanna see one for City. Friends has one and Hidden Side has one. I wanna see one for City. 

11 minutes ago, MAB said:

It is true that there are not many civilian cars, but then I find my kids don't play with that many at once anyway.  A couple of civilian cars, plus a whole fleet of police, fire trucks, etc is unrealistic for real life, but for kids is fairly normal. City civilians must be boring compared to emergency workers based on what LEGO releases - but that is/was also true in other themes like Castle. Unlike in Friends, where there is  much more based on regular civilian life.

They could play with them at once and they don't have to be boring. Just as long as after you build them, you can roll them around on the floor like Hotwheels cars. That's at least what I did as a child. To me, Heartlake City seems to be based more on fun, leisure and ease from the alleged overwhelming majority of crime in Lego City. I don't necessarily take sexism or gender specificism into play, but its just that the things we would want to see for City are things that would more likely to attract girls than boys. That's probably why we don't see a lot of grocery stores, pet stores, dance studios and other shops. There are some shops in City, but not as many as are in Friends. I mean, girls love to shop and eat as much as boys love violence and danger. That's another piece of assessment I have with the current state of City vs. Friends. 

[MAB]

14 minutes ago, pooda said:

They could play with them at once and they don't have to be boring. Just as long as after you build them, you can roll them around on the floor like Hotwheels cars. That's at least what I did as a child.

Yes, I know that. But tell a child he can have either five civilian cars, or one civilian car, one police car, one fire engine, one bulldozer and one dumper truck. You can roll them all around on the floor, but you can play out more adventures with five different 'interesting' vehicles than you can with five similar 'boring' ones.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

3 minutes ago, MAB said:

Yes, I know that. But tell a child he can have either five civilian cars, or one civilian car, one police car, one fire engine, one bulldozer and one dumper truck. You can roll them all around on the floor, but you can play out more adventures with five different 'interesting' vehicles than you can with five similar 'boring' ones.

Oh no. I know that if they all looked the same, they'd be boring. I'm talking about a variety of civilian automobiles like in sets 4207 and 60097. 

But I would agree when it comes to vehicles that are interesting. That's why I still want them to make a school bus for City. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by pooda

[Aanchir]

5 hours ago, Ron Dayes said:

But to be fair, in all other categories, the current City Series isnt very far advanced in concerning

-harbours
-civilian buildings
-Airports
-Hospitals

Now one could make a long list of modern and old sets and compare all of them with each other BUT. There is two important facts than can not be overlooked!
TLG now is one of the greated Toy producers world wide! They now have the financial status to hit out a new set in each category every year due to the high sales, coming in from multiple product lines, like Star Wars, Ninjago, licensed Disney etc
That wasnt the case before 2006! Before the 90ies even, there was no licensed themes! (I wouldnt count shell, maersk and others = promotional sets!)
So, that meant, some Sets had to be a somewhat a hit, cause each Set needed to make income. Nowadays, they can make do with a few flops, they survive easily.
Compare a Lego Section in a Toy store from 1989 to 2019 - Its more than double as many sets now availiable in total. Heck, there is a whole room full.
That furthermore also explains, why some sets from the past werent just a "1 year set", but were actually produced for a couple of years or intended to be in stores for a couple of years.
Therefore you cant really compare the amount of sets "today" (lets say 5 police stations in one decade) to the few police stations back before the milennia in 2 decades, if we are really honest!
One example:

6380 Hospital from 1987 is also still a 90ies set, since i got if from a Store as late as 1997 - Even in 2006 there was a always a few 90ies sets availiable in stores.
So a set was "longer" up to date at least store wise. Still they hit out new Sets each year in Classic Town, which seems even more impressive back then.

Yet, considering the financial status Lego had back then, they made a Town Palette thats quite diverse.

It's true that there's a big difference in how long sets used to remain available, but honestly I feel like that's something that LEGO can't do so much about since it largely comes down to pressure and insights from retailers. Most of the time, major retailers don't want to continue using up shelf space or warehouse space on sets that all the most enthusiastic buyers have already had more than a couple years to buy.

Those older sets tend to sell far more slowly than stuff that is new to ALL buyers, even those who were dedicated fans/collectors in the years prior. In fact, one reason the company barely avoided bankruptcy in 2003 was that a lot of stores had to cut down on how many new products they were stocking due to all the unsold 2002 products clogging their shelves

But overall my point there was more about how the 90s in particular seemed like an surprising example to cite for when the Town theme was at its peak. The trends during that decade were in a lot of ways marked by a considerable decline in a lot of the stuff people today feel is missing from City, and a rise in edgy, over-the-top, action- and exploration-oriented stuff like Divers, Xtreme Team, Outback, Res-Q, Space Port, and Arctic. Fun as they were for me as a kid, those themes are far closer to the type of newer City subthemes/categories I tend to see a lot of complaints about, such as Swamp Police, Sky Police, Arctic Expedition, or Mars Expedition. Towards the end of the decade, even in more mundane subthemes, you were seeing weird and regrettable designs like 6435 and 6565 that look about as unrealistic/inauthentic as many Jack Stone/4 Juniors sets of the early 2000s!

If the initial post and title of this topic had referred the 80s I suppose I could understand the nostalgic sentiment a bit more, since during that decade the Town range did have far more of the types of sets that today's City range is overtly lacking, like houses. Naturally, I'm more than prepared to expect a certain amount of 80s LEGO nostalgia within the AFOL community at this point, and there's no denying a lot of the stuff back then before I was born was foundational to a lot of what makes the LEGO brand popular today!

But having grown up in the 90s, I couldn't help becoming aware as I got older that so many of the sets I was enjoying were highly controversial among the fledgling AFOL community, and in hindsight a lot of the flaws or oddities of that period of LEGO history DO strike me as desperate attempts to break free of the brand's reputation for being quaint and traditional, often in a misguided or hamfisted manner.

6 hours ago, Ron Dayes said:

Last example why i persoanlly think Town is still superior = how real it looks!

Classic Fire Station 1981 Set 6382  vs Modern Fire Station from 2013

the first one looks like a real building you could see in your Suburb, the modern Set looks like the toy it is. It doesnt get better after 2013...
Its a real shame they use these "blue" windows all the time since the 90ies. Gosh, the 80ies had such great trans clear parts...or are your windows at home blue?

90ies Police HQ vs 2011 Police HQ

The first is allready "modern'ish", but most Police Stations are somewhat an experimental 70ies lots of glass building.
Whilst the modern thing, i mean, does it look like a real building even? Is that a Prison Motel?

Or take a look at this gem: Old, yes, but building wise, looks realsitic, doenst it? Your average 70ies Building 1976 Police HQ

with modern techniques, part access i think TLG could pull of realistic looking buildings (much like the modulars, just less 1800s detail mania), but apparently for kids this stuff sells better as it is now. Yet, as an Afol, i cant stop scratching my head over this. To be fair, we can just build our own stuff. yet if an AFOL claims that the new Sets are super amazing, i can just say: look around irl...is that realistic? The only good thing the modern sets have is advanced play features, but thats the toy intention behind it. Back in a day, lego was a downsized realistic looking suburbian world in bright colours, now its like an "action" theme. Unrealistic looking, but maybe more fun to play with.

I see your point to an extent, but I'm surprised by some of the examples you picked. The 2013 fire station honestly doesn't seem tremendously unrealistic to me, particularly compared to some of today's most avant-garde designs for real-life fire stations! When I was first skimming through your post I wondered if you'd made a typo and actually were referring to 60110, which strikes me as a lot more "toy-like" with how open and spread out its contents are to allow access for play. What's more, this year's also strikes me as a highly realistic example from a modern, urban standpoint, and I feel like it's far more relevant an example in a thread about current trends in LEGO City.

Your example of a 90s police station definitely does seem pretty realistic, and did to me as a kid based on my expectations of how police stations should look (i.e. an imposing, glass-covered office building that could accommodate a fleet of vehicles). 7498 is admittedly a lot more cartoonish with its elevated jail cells! Of course, concessions often understandably have to be made in LEGO police station designs since a lot of the time a jail building in real life tends to be far removed from the local police precinct, and the iconic exterior-facing barred windows and doors have generally fallen out of favor in real life in much the same way as grey and white prison stripes. But you're right that 7498 is among the less believable LEGO police station designs.

That said, I also feel like comparing favorite examples of a particular type of set from Classic Town with least favorite examples of the same type of set from modern City can lend a distorted sense of how varied both those themes/eras can be in terms of quality. After all, some really bizarre fire station designs like in 6554, 6464, and 6389 were as much a part of the Town theme as the more traditional designs from the 80s. And City police and fire stations have likewise had loads of variation compared to the few you chose for your comparisons! I find that 60141 and 60215 feel pretty realistic portrayals of urban police or fire stations, 4440 is a great rendition of a rural police station/sheriff's office and 60130 expertly echoes the iconic Alcatraz Island prison at a more condensed scale.

 

I definitely think there's a lot of room for improvement with the design of many different types of LEGO City buildings, police and fire stations included. But at the same time, I don't think looking backwards towards the design principles of 80s or early 90s Town sets is the solution there, considering how outdated some of those architectural styles are becoming even by real life standards, along with some of the drawbacks of those designs in terms of how accessible the interiors were for play or how much room they had for interior details.

And I guess in general, "forward, not back" sums up a lot of my feelings on where LEGO has the most room for improvement. Making stuff more like it was in the past certainly can help alleviate some perceived design missteps. But by contrast, introducing improvements or innovations that were no more typical of past sets than current ones tends to do a lot more to open up (or at least demonstrate) entirely new creative possibilities for the LEGO system.

 

So, for example, I know a lot of LEGO fans are nostalgic for 80s and 90s Castle, Pirates, and Space sets that had raised baseplates, but I honestly think there's a lot more exciting new potential that could be unlocked by making heavier use of brick-built terrain, and potentially introducing new elements for such purposes that are more versatile than a singular pre-shaped baseplate could ever achieve. We've seen some really cool examples for certain over the past decade or so, but I think there's even more to be gained if designers push those sorts of techniques even further.

Likewise, I know there were people who feel bummed about the use of stickers to add irregular stone colors or textures to fort or castle walls, as opposed to printed ones like in the 80s and 90s. But I think it's much more exciting to see LEGO employ brick-built solutions to create those sorts of variations without the same reliance on printed OR stickered decorations. Some great examples of this include the stonework in 9471, 70410, and 70594. I think there are bound to be a lot more ways that LEGO can replace details that used to be represented by predetermined prints or stickers with brick-built details that can be more easily modified or adapted at the discretion of the builder!

LEGO also has done some great stuff with wooden log textures since they first introduced the palisade bricks and panels in the Wild West theme in the 90s, but I still feel like they have yet to create any building in any theme that really believably evokes the "log cabin" style of construction (despite several log cabin sets in the Creator theme). I don't think trying to come up with improved techniques for that style of building construction would be a bad thing to hope for.

And there's a lot of love and nostalgia for road plates among AFOLs, but I feel like their basic 32x32 grid layout, lack of connection points underneath, flat shape (which makes creating believable inclined roads a chore) add up to a lot of frustrating customizations, which have often motivated advanced builders to spend a whole bunch of time and money on custom brick-built roads. I'd love to see LEGO attempt some type of middle ground: a road system with more of the kind of versatility and sturdiness, and customization potential as their rail system for LEGO trains! Can you imagine the possibilities?


Back in the mid-2000s, when LEGO was still in the process of recovering from their brush with the spectre of bankruptcy, I definitely understand how it would have made sense to try and recapture their audience by focusing on bringing back beloved attributes of their brand and design philosophy that they had lost over the years. Now that they're on a much stronger footing and have once again cemented LEGO's reputation as a childhood favorite toy, I realize they have the resources to take greater risks. But I believe the risks with the best payoff for them now are going to be entirely new ideas and innovations that push LEGO creativity and quality standards into new and uncharted territory.

Sorry for the tangent! I just had a lot of thoughts about this! It's always fun discussing this kind of stuff!

 

3 hours ago, pooda said:

Side note: TLG, please make a school bus for City. I want to see one! jumps up and down and screams. Just kidding! But all jokes aside, I wanna see one for City. Friends has one and Hidden Side has one. I wanna see one for City.

I definitely agree about this, although I wonder if the lack of international standardization is a concern there? I definitely remember seeing a several complaints about the Hidden Side schoolbus from fans outside of North America saying it looks way too American and nothing like school buses would look in whichever country the commenters were from.

Even with that in mind, though, I'd think that American-style school buses would be at least familiar enough from movies, tv shows, books, etc that it would be at least as familiar to buyers in Europe and Asia as a lot of the other more American-centric vehicle designs that have showed up periodically in LEGO City. So I think it would probably still be a moderately realistic hope for the future.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

2 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

I definitely agree about this, although I wonder if the lack of international standardization is a concern there? I definitely remember seeing a several complaints about the Hidden Side schoolbus from fans outside of North America saying it looks way too American and nothing like school buses would look in whichever country the commenters were from.

Even with that in mind, though, I'd think that American-style school buses would be at least familiar enough from movies, tv shows, books, etc that it would be at least as familiar to buyers in Europe and Asia as a lot of the other more American-centric vehicle designs that have showed up periodically in LEGO City. So I think it would probably still be a moderately realistic hope for the future.

Well.....Lego is a European company. So I can see why they'd complain. But like you said.......American-style school buses should be at least familiar enough to them because of the media. However, I do think they should make the look region neutral like the other Great Vehicles that have been released over the years so that complaints won't ensue. I recommended a look based on those Thomas Vista buses from the mid 90s. 

[meliander]

For me personally the 90s Lego just looks better. Not only in City but also in almost every other theme. It's just the beautiful simplicity and uniform design, like paintings written by a single artist, or a film from a single director. Yes, the builds today are more advanced and there is a gazillion of elaborate parts, but for me, it doesn't have the same feeling, the same unique aesthetic across most of the sets available in that time period. It's like old classic 2D Disney movies. I like the new Pixar and Disney films, but they will never have the same impact on me. However, saying that - there is one theme in today's Lego which is very City related - Creator Expert modular buildings and winter village, which is something that we never had in the 90s - and with that theme alone I'm very happy. I don't really care too much about the City theme anymore - I will still pick up anything that I think is good enough, maybe 1 or 2 sets a year because I need to save money for those expert sets!

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

On 10/1/2019 at 2:35 AM, meliander said:

For me personally the 90s Lego just looks better. Not only in City but also in almost every other theme. It's just the beautiful simplicity and uniform design, like paintings written by a single artist, or a film from a single director. Yes, the builds today are more advanced and there is a gazillion of elaborate parts, but for me, it doesn't have the same feeling, the same unique aesthetic across most of the sets available in that time period. It's like old classic 2D Disney movies. I like the new Pixar and Disney films, but they will never have the same impact on me. However, saying that - there is one theme in today's Lego which is very City related - Creator Expert modular buildings and winter village, which is something that we never had in the 90s - and with that theme alone I'm very happy. I don't really care too much about the City theme anymore - I will still pick up anything that I think is good enough, maybe 1 or 2 sets a year because I need to save money for those expert sets!

I actually don't mind the advanced looks. My point is that 80s and 90s town gave more options for actual civilian infrastructure. Not just vehicles. 

Of course you had your police station, fire department, hospital and other emergency services because every town needs that. But in classic town, not only could you pretend to be a rescuer. But you also had a post office, a full bus terminal and plenty of auto complexes. You even had houses. So you could pretend to be a mail man, bus driver, mechanic and even a housewife. 

Back then, the town had many buildings. Buildings = jobs. Today, for City, it seems like the only jobs you can do in Lego City are being a rescuer or a scientist which does get kinda boring. I'm with you there on backing down from many city sets. Though I do buy anything that's reasonable.