Attitudes and mindsets

[jwarner]

I think it's beneficial to receive constructive criticism like we do here on EB, because there's a lot of AFOL communities where there is an absence of any criticism, and while this may make us feel better as builders, it doesn't help us improve our skills. One of the benefits of having so many avid Technic fans in one place is that us aspiring young builders can learn a lot from those that have in the hobby for years upon years. 

I do agree that hypercriticism and nonconstructive critiques tend to detract from the community. However, I think most of us have good intentions when it comes to criticisms. We all want our models to be their best

As far as self-promotion is concerned, I attribute it to the fact that it can be really hard to understand someone's tone and the intention of their words just from a block of text. Online we lose a lot of the inflection one might pick up from a face-to-face conversation, and this can make it really hard to distinguish between healthy pride and brash egocentrism, so a lot of people may come off as arrogant and self-righteous when they're just really proud of what they've done. Then of course there are some people that are actually arrogant and self-righteous, but that's a different story

[KD123]

 I have witnessed a lot of passive aggressiveness on this forum that has turned into full on overt eye rolling rudeness that I feel is generally at the root of the issue here.

I have seen people complement a builder while at the same time comment about how others may not see the greatness in some design feature.  People see what they see and interpret things based on their experience levels and value systems.   There's no need to offend others by saying basically they wouldn't recognise a great build or design features if they saw it.   If you see a feature that others may have missed point but out so others can see it and then be in CW of it.

I have also seen a person complement another builder on a build that took two years of their lives to create, only to say in the same vein that it does not meet LEGO standards and then go in to explain that this was said in relation to another topic where someone else paid a complement how they thought a moc really raises the bar in some way.  People are free to disagree here but what does this have to do with the mic being presented.  How would you feel if you created something and had the courage to share it here only to have someone rant away about something else totally unrelated to the topic/build at hand. 

I have also seen how someone took the time to build a portion of someone elses moc just to provide feedback on how the moc can be improved.  That's amazing.

We have to take the good with the bad that's just life.  

We each have a place to share in this place.  We may not agree with the content of what is said but we should at the very least respect the voice.  This places could be more civil if we just tried to be nicer to each other.  It's a hobby after all.

Lipko, I have built your Audi and it is awesome. There is nothing in your build that does not do something or that is not supported well.  I have it next to brunojj's two DTM cars and it adds countless hours of viewing pleasure for me, my kids and guests who see it. Thank you for sharing the instructions on rebrickable.

Edited April 25, 2018 by KD123

[Meatman]

5 hours ago, TeamThrifty said:

I tend to agree. We live in a world of hyper-sensitivity generally, and on here... 

Apparently so... and don't start me on the 'illegal use' of parts. that i truly don't get!! (but each to their own, i'm not precious about it...) There was an exceptional supercar posted a couple of days ago, and it was pointed out that it didn't conform to what TLG would expect of an official model!!?? So what. I say it again. So. What. The model was exceptional, i spent ages looking at the pics.. then read the comments below and i didn't think they were commenting on the same moc!! 

But i've said it before, its a forum, and even a good forum is still anonymous access from behind a keyboard. If the moc above was displayed in a room with all the forum members physically there, i guarantee the 'feedback' would have been different!!

 

Ok, first off, the supercar that you are talking about was critiqued on it's proportions after the builder presented his completed model in it's original Work-in-progress thread which in turn led to the builder going in and changing many things that made it look much better, and then he made a new thread about it. And now that model is being shared all over the internet, so critiquing most definitely helped in that case.

As far as pointing out what the TLG group would expect of an official model, if not for people claiming "This should be a real set" or "Lego better top this" then there would be no need to point out the obvious areas of that moc that would not pass through TLG's building standards. When I see people make outlandish claims like this, it leads me to believe that they are a bit naive or just casual Technic fans. We have all built official Technic sets and we know the direction and style that Lego's designers build in, so it should be fairly easy to spot models by AFOL that follow these guidelines and which don't.

 

[TeamThrifty]

38 minutes ago, Meatman said:

so it should be fairly easy to spot models by AFOL that follow these guidelines and which don't.

but.... so what? I think thats the point, not whether it could be an official set or not... just... why say it? if someone suggests lego would struggle to top it, why pounce on this comment with negatives? 'Topping it' is subjective. Whether it would pass muster as an official set is subjective. But as mentioned above, its passive aggressiveness that adds nothing - its not the constructive critique that i think everyone supports. But thats just an opinion, which is of course, also subjective...

 

1 hour ago, KD123 said:

I have also seen how someone took the time to build a portion of someone elses moc just to provide feedback on how the moc can be improved.  That's amazing

Really?! Thats not being constructive, surely?

[knotian]

Attitudes and mindsets-

Interesting posts!

I'm an old fart and I build for myself . I look at all the models shown in this forum and know that I'll never get to that level of whatever the person is aiming for. I don't build for play-ability, but to represent something I like. I do not post a bunch of reply's, but will ask a question. My models may or may-not be shown. My joy is in doing the research and design. I do not like to critique, since I don't know the attitude or mindset or purpose or goal of the modeller. Unless someone asks for critique, or shows a wip, I think we should look and enjoy.

[agrof]

I share my observations too.

@Bublehead It is an AFOL forum so you will not get "childish wonderment / amazement". We are adults, unfortunately we already forgot how to be a child - therefore we have another aspects and attitude for life. In return we can buy Lego for our hard earned money.  On the other hand, this is an AFOL forum, and we are childish enough to play with "children toys" - as said with degrading tone by real by-life-bitter ADULTS. 

Technic is also a special part of the Lego world, it is more technical, more abstract, more mechanically detailed than the system world. Even in AFOL world many times Technic is not considered as Lego. If You consider the unique properties of Technic, it is quite obvious that it has fans with special and similar attitude, who are more interested in technical, mechanical - or even mathematical! - solutions. If You look up f.e. Jung's Typology, you will find what personality types are involved in what kind of activities. I am pretty sure, that Technic AFOLs are most commonly introverted, sensing, thinking types.

Of course, You need to understand this, that everyone has all the attributes, but in different mixture - and this also differs in given situation (f.e.: speaking with colleauges - more strict, based on thinking, or with your children - more forgiving, based on feelings). I believe, that here on the forum this kind of attitude what you observed is related to personality type, we are just more technical, logical, and we are just not WOW - LOL - FIRST! type of people. If You look up the Star Wars, Ninjago, Sci-fi subforums, You will find these amazement more, because of the different mindsetted (important: not better, not worse!) audience. Simple like that.

I am also pretty sure, that there is no intentional personal offense in the comments in the Technic subforum, it might be understood so due to the dry, unbiased (dispassionated?) wording - personalities again. As said before, if one would not care or would not be interested to help with an idea to make a certain MOC better, than no feedback would be given.

Greetings: an introverted AFOL 

P.S.: I don't get the whining about not recognizing and not appreciating the invested time in a MOC... it is still a hobby, You do it for Yourself. If You do your personal relaxation in order of getting recognition and positive feedback only, than something is seriously wrong...

Edited April 25, 2018 by agrof

[Aventador2004]

2 hours ago, KD123 said:

I have seen people complement a builder while at the same time comment about how others may not see the greatness in some design feature.  People see what they see and interpret things based on their experience levels and value systems.   There's no need to offend others by saying basically they wouldn't recognise a great build or design features if they saw it.   If you see a feature that others may have missed point but out so others can see it and then be in CW of it.

There we go, I agree completely. We all see from different levels of ideas. Some critic little details, some like little details. At least this isn't YouTube.

13 minutes ago, agrof said:

P.S.: I don't get the whining about not recognizing and not appreciating the invested time in a MOC... it is still a hobby, You do it for Yourself. If You do your personal relaxation in order of getting recognition and positive feedback only, than something is seriously wrong...

We all can have this, it just is a matter of keeping this in control. When you go this way, you will get encouragement, but when you try too much.. These topics happen with an angry builder...

[Meatman]

56 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

but.... so what? I think thats the point, not whether it could be an official set or not... just... why say it? if someone suggests lego would struggle to top it, why pounce on this comment with negatives? 'Topping it' is subjective. Whether it would pass muster as an official set is subjective. But as mentioned above, its passive aggressiveness that adds nothing - its not the constructive critique that i think everyone supports. But thats just an opinion, which is of course, also subjective...

 

There is nothing negative about pointing out something that people may not recognize. If I build a model that requires the use of an illegal method to get it to perform properly and someone says "Let's see if TLG can top this" why can someone else not point out that Lego doesn't need to top it because it is considered illegal by TLG(and many others) standards?

It just gets old when people see a few pictures and say "The bar has been raised" without actually looking into what they are referring to.

[TeamThrifty]

Just now, Meatman said:

considered illegal

Is this an actual thing? I've seen the use a 3L pin declared illegal because a 3L axle was the 'right way'.. the pin wasn't forced or bent. Is there any fact supporting this illegal-sect?! I fully support things like axles as torsion bars etc... seems fine to me!! 

[agrof]

19 minutes ago, Aventador2004 said:

 

We all can have this, it just is a matter of keeping this in control. When you go this way, you will get encouragement, but when you try too much.. These topics happen with an angry builder...

Agree, many times we need encouragement which helps a lot, the problem is if the focus is on the feedback only.

Honest words help too, we seen here already colleagues saying ran out of ideas, mood, or having bad period in life - there were encouraging feedbacks coming. All in all, this forum is not a bad place to spend time with, but one of the best!

Edit: @allanp explains very well below, what I meant with the first period of my previous comment.

Edited April 25, 2018 by agrof

[allanp]

I don't think we've become hyper critical, just regular critical! When I first saw 8880 I had that sense of child wonderment at that which was truly a game changer. It had a whole bunch of new parts which us MOCers could only dream of, a beautifully sculpted body for the time, new functionality for the time, a for the time detailed interior which still hasn't really been beat, a new gear change which has definitely not been beat to this day and so on. As you may notice, I still look at this set with a lot of fondness, but what has changed is that I can now also see its flaws, like the stupid chain drive to the engine for example. Having seen so many sets and creations, we can see the good, but the good no longer blinds us to the not to good like it did before. That's not a bad thing, the wonderment is still there when there is something wonderful to see. It's just not blind. As for the seriousness, when a child presents a MOC with all its wonky colours and unsupported gear trains, and they are all excited to show off their work then it's all praises and then we move in and forget about it, happy knowing we have nurtured their creative drive to explore bigger and better things as well as their desire to learn and improve. But when an adult that clearly has some skill and has been building for a long time shares their creation with the rest of us, well there's something to get excited and inevitably passionate about. It's human nature to be passionate about that which excites us. It's also human nature to be critical of that we are passionate about. Demonstrated skill, excitement, passion, criticism. That's human nature, that's our mindset and attitude as humans. The fact that there are thousands of people posting MOCs means we can't remember what each and every MOCers goals are when creating, so we critique based on what's important to us, not the MOCer. A poor MOC gets no interaction. A good MOC gets interaction with critisms. A perfect MOC gets interaction with no critisms, but there is no such thing as a perfect MOC. Only MOCs made by children get interaction with no critisms. The so called seriousness is just passion for a hobby that has given us so much joy for so many years. Your gaff may not be a great first impression as the creation should do the talking, the creation should be what's blowing your trumpet as a good creation requires no trumpet blowing from the creator. Just show the model and explain the functions, we can make up our own minds if we like it or not. But I'm sure you know that by now. This is a friendly place, the friendliest place I've ever found on the internet, and though that may be hidden at times behind its passion it's still there. So welcome to Eurobricks and I'm looking forward to seeing more from you 

[Meatman]

4 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

Is this an actual thing? I've seen the use a 3L pin declared illegal because a 3L axle was the 'right way'.. the pin wasn't forced or bent. Is there any fact supporting this illegal-sect?! I fully support things like axles as torsion bars etc... seems fine to me!! 

It's a real thing. TLG has broken some of these rules themselves over the years though.

Any technique that can potentially damage a part by stressing it would be considered illegal. In a torsion bar, it's not so much the axle getting potentially damaged, but the axle holes of the parts that it is inserted into.

[TeamThrifty]

Thats not a Lego URL...thats just someone with a website? Unless he's a lego employee, its still not a real thing. 

..there's some dodgy stuff on that doc! If thats the bible of legality, you've chosen the wrong god!!

[Erik Leppen]

11 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

Thats not a Lego URL...thats just someone with a website? Unless he's a lego employee, its still not a real thing. 

If you noticed, the name of the file is "jamieberard_brickstress_bf0". and the first page says "presented by Jamie Berard". If you now google that name, you will find that indeed, this is the name of a Lego designer.

[KD123]

TeamThrifty my comment about building someone elses moc just to help them was a complement to how that is very amazing of the person to do so. It Is an example of how generous people can be and how great this forum is as a result.

[Meatman]

17 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

Thats not a Lego URL...thats just someone with a website? Unless he's a lego employee, its still not a real thing. 

..there's some dodgy stuff on that doc! If thats the bible of legality, you've chosen the wrong god!!

If you think that it's dodgy stuff (even though it was presented by one of the top Lego designers) then I guess there is nothing more to discuss with you about it.

 

[technic_addict]

The reason there is attitudes and mindsets is because everyone has their own identity and free will.  They will like and dislike different aspects.  Should those opinions be voiced, most people ask to be critiqued.  How are those opinions written and perceived by the builder can sometimes cause friction.

From what I have seen over the years, the forum is not the friendliest to new members, which I think may just be an impatience (like following rules) thing.

Unfortunately there are some with big egos; however, a lot of member with humility as well.  I am still amazed the LB-X18 collaboration project is going as smoothly as it is.

 

As for the OP, their approach to their very first post on a forum calling their creation game changing was no doubt going to problematic.

I look forward to all the amazing MOC's specifically super cars (because that is what I like) being built.

[jrx]

57 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

Thats not a Lego URL...thats just someone with a website? Unless he's a lego employee, its still not a real thing. 

..there's some dodgy stuff on that doc! If thats the bible of legality, you've chosen the wrong god!!

Maybe comments like this one are one of the problems ...

[Bublehead]

I want to thank all the posters in this thread for their comments and opinions. It seems I may have waded into the swamp of an underlying controversy that has been brewing, maybe for some time, not sure. But what is evident is this is a very passionate group of AFOLs with a lot of opinions on the aspects of the hobby.  I am hearing one theme that seems to be at odds here is illegal use of parts and unconventional methods (techniques not embraced in official TLG sets) and people being the "official TLG" police. Another theme I am hearing is "unbalanced" criticism and praise, and. third theme is that people are expecting recognition for something and not receiving it and feeling disenfranchised. I will be honest... I am not that critical of anybody's MOC except my own.  And it is human nature to defend it when it is criticized, or to complain if we feel it is being harshly judged.  It is also human nature to be passionate about the creation you have brought for show and tell... and yet our teachers didn't let the kids attack or be critical of other children's show and tell subjects because that was fair play.  What I am sensing here is we (the royal WE here) seem to have lost the sense of "fair play" and the bounds of human decency when we are being "passionate" about our hobby.  To those who think I am expecting them to remember my build style and creative viewpoint when creating my MOCs, well that is an absurd assumption that I am expecting people to do that. I commented that I would appreciate comments on how my MOC is or is not like a real flagship set and that was my focus when I build and that is how I want it to be judged, as if it was an official TLG offering.  I got comments, praise, and criticism that I felt was imbalanced due to my brash and arrogant and inflammatory and in hind sight foolish first post.  I called it out because I felt it was not being critical of my MOC, but was being critical of me. And is still at the heart of my passion about defending myself to those who felt my debut was arrogant, shamelessly self promoting, and I was trying to claim I am better than anyone else.  That was not my intent in the least. My enthusiasm for my MOC was my only driving force, and unfortunately people in here mistook that as bravado and arrogance. I am certainly going to change the way I present my next MOC, and I promise that it will land with gentle thud so as not to upend the apple carts of all the overly "passionate" AFOLs in here. 

[suffocation]

The minute you stop experiencing childlike wonder (not "childish wonderment") is when the most precious part of you dies.

[TeamThrifty]

12 minutes ago, jrx said:

Maybe comments like this one are one of the problems ...

Why? 

58 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

If you now google that name, you will find that indeed, this is the name of a Lego designer.

Thats an excellent point! And taken on board... though i'm still not sure that doc applies to the many claims of illegality we see on this forum. I fully accept things not clicking home is bad form, but its not always the case.. its as though this doc has 'grown' beyond its scope?

6 minutes ago, suffocation said:

The minute you stop experiencing childlike wonder (not "childish wonderment") is when the most precious part of you dies.

100% right

[jrx]

36 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

Why? 

Because you asked …

2 hours ago, TeamThrifty said:

Is this an actual thing?

… and you got an good answer …

1 hour ago, Meatman said:

It's a real thing. TLG has broken some of these rules themselves over the years though.

… from an experienced user. And without hesitation you questioned about the answer without trying to get an impression about the author of the document. With only a few seconds time on your favorite search engine you would have found about the author.

 

[Bublehead]

I went and looked at the "document" on legal v.s. Illegal and I must say, yes that is a nice guideline of what a billion dollar toy company would follow as a corporate mantra.  Does it apply to MOCs? Nope. It only applies to official TLG offerings. Now is it a mantra I follow when building my MOCs? Absolutely. Did I violate any of those rules for my Twirl and Hurl? Not for any function, only for form. There are two places on my MOC that use non-clicking pins in holes and both were done to create a certain look, not create any working function. I will leave it to the legality police to find them. There are two uses of a piece that required a little "help" getting them in place and there is a perfectly legal solution that requires no "help", but I went with the illegal use due to being symmetrical and I know I can use the legal method without any compromise in functionality if I am arrested by the Legality Police. (Rolls eyes).  

My general take on legal v.s. Illegal parts use is this- for functionality, no violations. For look and feel, all bets are off depending on the outcome. Does it make it look more real, or more cool, then Ok. If it stresses a part till it is damaged, that is not cool. Not okay but acceptable if it is simply a pin left in compression because pins are a consumable in my mind when used this way.

But that presentation was mostly a system is not 100% compatible with Technic guideline for people who want to use Technic parts in system builds and vice versa. It does reveal the thinking of what TLG feels are building standards to be followed by their designers, but those rules apply only to employees of TLG, not to us AFOLs making MOCs.  

I try and follow the rules and do when creating a working function, but I don't let the Legality Police control my builds.

 

[grum64]

11 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

I think it's great if people dare to critique a model everyone else praises. I can't stand the herd mentality of 100 people posting "wow" and "HoF" and little else, falsely insinuating a model is perfect and can't be improved.

If I post a comment on a build it’s almost always along the lines of those of which you speak, WOW!, amazing build, HoF, great build etc,. I post these things not because I’m following the herd or to insinuate a model is perfect but because I simply don’t have the building skills nor am I technically knowledgeable enough to do otherwise. I wouldn’t know a good axle from a bad one, an efficient gearbox from one bogged down by friction or why. I’ve way too much respect and admiration for those phenomolly talented builders in this forum such as yourself to critique what I don’t understand.

10 hours ago, Bublehead said:

So I want to apologize to the critics, and fellow builders if my models don't live up to the hype of a good model, because that is not what I focus on. My focus is on playability, functionality, durability, reliability, and ease of operation.  I like designing toys for children,  so please keep that in mind when viewing my MOCs

Before I go any further, I’m not getting into the rights or wrongs of that recent topic title nor am I criticising anyone. The comments below refer ONLY to the above quote.

You must never apologise or feel you have to apologise for something you’ve worked hard to design and build no matter what the level of criticism. Nobody here wants that. You build what you want to build with a focus on that which you’ve clearly explained, members here fully understand that as they for the most part build for the very same reasons.

I’ve said many, many times that this is the friendliest place on the ‘net and I stand  by that. It will help you greatly and ensure you enjoy your time here if you keep that in mind when reading comments on your own, or for that matter, anyone else’s builds.

Keep on MOCing 

Edited April 25, 2018 by grum64
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[jrx]

Perfectly what @grum64 says: Keep on MOCing