BoBS Disputes

[Maxim I]

Just now, Bregir said:

They do?  I have never seen this explained or played out. The challenge results does not mention it.

As I said, you have done quite a bit. Included in this is your relations with the Royal family of Garvey, and the palace you have built.

Everything is a "deal" with Eslandola, isn't it?  Well, just don't expect Corrington to accept that kind of deal!

Oh, there is? How is anyone to know? Or is this published the same place the Tuna Monopoly was?...

Why would I claim such a preposterous thing?

In conclusion, it still seems to me perfectly true: You have done quite a bit, ESL has done very little. Further evidence may change this perception - I am not Donald Trump, after all...

This looks remarkably like an accusation.  And an unsubstantiated one. You will explain yourself or offer me satisfaction.

What, am I now again the one who has to satisfy you?

I don't own you nothing. You are the one who suggests two times in the same post that Eslandola owes Garvey a piece of the island.

As stated, we never promised Garvey a part of the island. They helped us and for their help they are rewarded.

About the financial part, I will use the tactic of RNTC, the tactic of silence. But if you want, go ahead and check the March 617 summary, you'll see Garvey received a sum of 500 db's.

As you can see here, Garvey gets the credits for taking over the Tuna Fishing. Eslandolan soldiers helped with Garvey for this.

I see nowhere that Eslandola controls the Tuna Industry now as a result of Cat D, so why should we officialy state we give that monopoly to Garvey? We helped Garvey establishing that monopoly, just like they helped us conquering the island.

I really don't get the Corrington frustration. We were at war long before KPA started, we invaded their island to secure our islands. Corrington sent an army as well to that island to secure their interests (but if I remember correctly, you were not at war with Mardier, so you sent troops to occupy lands of a neutral faction). We fought for the island and weren't affraid of the Mardier Revenge. (do I have to remind you of the blockaded and raided Eslandolan ports during the war)

How can we secure our islands and our area of influence if we have to give a part of it to another nation?

Why envying that island when you already have the largest mass in the new world? Last time I checked, it still is smaller than almost 4/7 of your other islands.

To conclude, Eslandola made a deal with Garvey, a deal with benefits for both parties.

[Capt Wolf]

Are these IC statements fro Montoya? Or should this be a PM discussion?

Edited September 20, 2017 by Capt Wolf

[SilentWolf]

@Maxim I, Bregir was answering your comments in regard to other ways to influence and interact with NPC nations, and brought up how in KPC there was no solid interaction with Garvey as it had no actual influence on the event nor any outcome to it. There were stories told about Garvey by players in Challenge D, but Garvey as an NPC did not interact with the storyline as to influence its own outcome like the new system allows. You took comments that had nothing to do with what Eslandola should do, and everything to do with how NPC nations can be interacted with in the new system, and applied the comments in an accusatory method back at @Bregir.

58 minutes ago, Bregir said:

  2 hours ago, Maxim I said:

They now have the monopoly over the Tuna Fishing industry (as a result of Eslandola winning one of the parts of Chal V). So they now control the Tuna business, a very profitable business as it was this that funded Mardier for decades.

I read the links to the results and nowhere did I see a mention of Garvey being granted a monopoly on tuna. I do know that story-wise, Mardier has lost much of its tuna fleet, but there wasn't any mention of a monopoly granted, nor even that Garvey has taken over in the slack. From previous experiences in the game, builds are required to claim and have a monopoly, plus a trade company, none of which Garvey can do nor has unless someone donates a licensed build to them. 

58 minutes ago, Bregir said:

  2 hours ago, Maxim I said:

There is also a nice sum paid to Garvey for their help in certain battles.

It is nice to know that Eslandola paid their allies for the support rendered them, though hidden transactions don't in any way expand the storyline. This is the first time any of the other players have heard of this so to claim that it is part of BOBS lore that everyone should know seems a bit hard to understand. Same applies to RNTC actions before. The account sheet might say something but without a storyline or declaration of some sort it doesn't really create a storyline. 

[Bregir]

Maxim - I might be slightly yanking your chain... (Edit: And if that lead to insult, I apologise)

However, I maintain my general argument. My initial position was to explain how I, if I were to be the gamemaster for something relating to ESL and GAR, would interpret events.

How you choose to conduct your foreign policy, I will not interfere with. I am merely stating this as an example of how it might affect how I would conduct my gamemastering duties. I personally think Garvey would be lukewarm about the so-called "deal". I really haven't seen Garvey gaining much from this (I believe you about the 500 dbs, but as Silentwolf says, it is hardly lore before now). This goes well into my argument that this game is so much more than the EGS.

As I tried to explain above, your connection to the Garveyan Royal family is well-established, but the diplomatic relation between ESL and GAR is not so much. (Although I grant that you have been in war together, of course)

It is clear to me that we do not interpret the situation the same way, and I am still not convinced after reviewing your arguments. I shall refrain from commenting further on them, though. And no hard feelings, btw

Just one little thing, though... (As Lord Buckethead obviously knows how to get the best out of this kind of situation... )

@Lord Buckethead:

"Sir" Lieutenant Sharpe asked with a bow: "Am I right in assuming that you have overheard the exchange of words between myself and the... gentleman here?"

"If so, I should like you to confirm whether he has offered any explanation, or any substantial proof for his claim of me lying. In case of the contrary, you may ask him to do so, or inform him that we shall meet on the field of honour at an hour of his choosing."

@Capt Wolf: Do you find your question answered to your satisfaction?

[Garmadon]

Just now, Bregir said:

"Sir" Lieutenant Sharpe asked with a bow: "Am I right in assuming that you have overheard the exchange of words between myself and the... gentleman here?"

"If so, I should like you to confirm whether he has offered any explanation, or any substantial proof for his claim of me lying. In case of the contrary, you may ask him to do so, or inform him that we shall meet on the field of honour at an hour of his choosing."

Duel, duel, duel!    (Where's Montoya when you need him?   Jk, I see there's someone else to do the trick  )

[Kai NRG]

Just now, Bregir said:

...I really haven't seen Garvey gaining much from this...

Garvey may not have gained much from the war with Mardier, but bear in mind that they didn't attack Mardier to help us out.  They were already at war with Mardier (i.e., a challenge between Mardier and Garvey was already planned, as you know).  We have no reason to reward them; in fact, they should reward us.  Do you think Garvey would have won their little war without Eslandola's help?  What did they do for us?  How many Garvians built last challenge?  Sure, we could shower down empty titles, but not much point in that. 

But I'm all for a:

53 minutes ago, Lord Buckethead said:

Duel, duel, duel, duel!!!

Edited September 18, 2017 by Kai NRG

[Mesabi]

Well this blew up . Before turning into some argument over the last challenge.

Anyways, I'm glad I'll be able to explore more of the BoBS universe. I'm a little worried about range constraints, but I think it'll be fun to send a ship to the south end of Halos. 

[Bregir]

Just now, Kai NRG said:

We have no reason to reward them; in fact, they should reward us.

You see, this is probably where we differ and part of the reason why Corrington represented by Montoya has had troubles reaching agreement with ESL...

Just now, Mesabi said:

Anyways, I'm glad I'll be able to explore more of the BoBS universe. I'm a little worried about range constraints, but I think it'll be fun to send a ship to the south end of Halos. 

Your range constraints means it will take several turns, not that you can't do it. And while you may not be faced with the most interesting options each month, it is up to you to use them to progress you story

[Capt Wolf]

9 minutes ago, Bregir said:

@Capt Wolf: Do you find your question answered to your satisfaction?

Yes. I'll answer more in private.

[Maxim I]

25 minutes ago, SilentWolf said:

@Maxim I, Bregir was answering your comments in regard to other ways to influence and interact with NPC nations, and brought up how in KPC there was no solid interaction with Garvey as it had no actual influence on the event nor any outcome to it. There were stories told about Garvey by players in Challenge D, but Garvey as an NPC did not interact with the storyline as to influence its own outcome like the new system allows. You took comments that had nothing to do with what Eslandola should do, and everything to do with how NPC nations can be interacted with in the new system, and applied the comments in an accusatory method back at @Bregir.

I read the links to the results and nowhere did I see a mention of Garvey being granted a monopoly on tuna. I do know that story-wise, Mardier has lost much of its tuna fleet, but there wasn't any mention of a monopoly granted, nor even that Garvey has taken over in the slack. From previous experiences in the game, builds are required to claim and have a monopoly, plus a trade company, none of which Garvey can do nor has unless someone donates a licensed build to them. 

It is nice to know that Eslandola paid their allies for the support rendered them, though hidden transactions don't in any way expand the storyline. This is the first time any of the other players have heard of this so to claim that it is part of BOBS lore that everyone should know seems a bit hard to understand. Same applies to RNTC actions before. The account sheet might say something but without a storyline or declaration of some sort it doesn't really create a storyline. 

Well, then I am going to work about the official declaration. You are right it never has been declared official, but to be honest, this is what I considered to be granted, reading the description of the Challenge and the results,

Here I am not agreeing with you. Eslandola was in a state of war with Mardier. So why do you expect Eslandola to claim in front of everyone (and Mardier): "hey guys, we paid 500 db's to Garvey so they will do the next move. Oh and please, act like you don't know when this action happens". The reason for this payment is known by SkaForHire, the game master of those events...

Don't forget the whole RNTC thing was because I spotted the transaction between RNTC and Mardier. They never publicly declared what it was for and even denied it in the beginning. This is a game where we agreed we try to talk as much IC as possible.

I don't ask of Corrington to publish a report of every action they planned in a MRCA. These are the behind the scheme stuff that makes the game interesting. So yes, no-one heard about the money Garvey received, and no, I never said it is part of the known BOBS Lore as it was a secret transaction. But if evaluating the Garvey-Eslandola relations, it is something that should be known, and it was known by the game masters back then.

20 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Maxim - I might be slightly yanking your chain... However, I maintain my general argument. My initial position was to explain how I, if I were to be the gamemaster for something relating to ESL and GAR, would interpret events.

How you choose to conduct your foreign policy, I will not interfere with. I am merely stating this as an example of how it might affect how I would conduct my gamemastering duties. I personally think Garvey would be lukewarm about the so-called "deal". I really haven't seen Garvey gaining much from this (I believe you about the 500 dbs, but as Silentwolf says, it is hardly lore before now). This goes well into my argument that this game is so much more than the EGS.

As I tried to explain above, your connection to the Garveyan Royal family is well-established, but the diplomatic relation between ESL and GAR is not so much. (Although I grant that you have been in war together, of course)

It is clear to me that we do not interpret the situation the same way, and I am still not convinced after reviewing your arguments. I shall refrain from commenting further on them, though. And no hard feelings, btw

Just one little thing, though... (As Lord Buckethead obviously knows how to get the best out of this kind of situation... )

@Lord Buckethead:

"Sir" Lieutenant Sharpe asked with a bow: "Am I right in assuming that you have overheard the exchange of words between myself and the... gentleman here?"

"If so, I should like you to confirm whether he has offered any explanation, or any substantial proof for his claim of me lying. In case of the contrary, you may ask him to do so, or inform him that we shall meet on the field of honour at an hour of his choosing."

@Capt Wolf: Do you find your question answered to your satisfaction?

See my reaction to SilentWolf. If you interpret events, you should know everything as gamemaster. The gamemaster who monitorred the KPA, knew about the transaction of money. The players of BoBS should not know as it was a secret payment.

As you say, this game is much more than simply EGS. Why does a Corrington gamemaster need to define how Garvey reacted to a deal they made with Eslandola, without him knowing what was agreed upon. If those who set up the alliance with Garvey promised a part of the island to Garvey, then I completely understand your reaction, but that never was a part of the deal. I find it very alarming that you as gamemaster would interpret the relations between Garvey and Eslandola as 'not that strong because Garvey would be lukewarm'. It is your opinion as someone who does not know the whole story.

I don't want to say you are lying, because you can't lie if you don't know the whole story, but claiming certain stuff that you don't know about, can result in a lie, even if wasn't volutary. Your statement of " (Garvey got nothing from the war, for instance) " does not match the truth as is proven.

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Maxim I

[Bregir]

14 minutes ago, Maxim I said:

Why does a Corrington gamemaster need to define how Garvey reacted to a deal they made with Eslandola, without him knowing what was agreed upon.

"He" does not. I would like to make it clear that that was never the point.

My point is that *if* I were asked to gamemaster an adventure or similar involving diplomatic actions between Garvey and Eslandola, I would try to base it on what I know. And what I "knew" was that you are closely connected to the Garveyan Royal family, but that Garvey did not *appear* to me to gain much from its involvement with Eslandola. I would try to play that into such an adventure to make it fit the established lore.

It was apparently an ill-begotten example.

However, it goes to show that we should take care not to run BoBS on single individuals. Things that are pertinent to the story should be public within the court (or a committee for things that require secrecy) to ensure redundancy in the case of absence or busyness of single members of leadership. It is also the only way we can ensure fairness and equality for different nations. And it should be worked into the story afterwards to avoid mistrust, suspicion of bribery, or similar, about things happening in the skunkworks.

That is another discussion, though, and something we are working on in court.

__________

Also, if anyone suspects Maxim of shyness towards my challenge, he has already approached me in PM about a duel.

[Legostone]

Popped Corn! Popped Corn!