Need help! linear 1:1 clutching

[TechnicSummse]

I need a linear clutch for 1:1 transmission, like in real car gearboxes 4th or 5th gear.

Additionally there need to be a possibility to drive the wheel with a second gear. I found 2 solutions... but both have theire own problems:

 

First solution... turntable+ differential... the 24 teeth-side of the differential is fit to the  24 inner teeth of the turntable.

+ turntable can hold the wheel, chassis can be fixed at the black part of the turntable

+ easy way to add a second gear by using the 16t of the differential

- a lot of friction from turntable

- to wide for a good use

 

Second solution:

16t clutch-gear blocked by 2 outer fixed 16t gears.

+ wheel is held directly inside

+ close to no friction

- hard to find a way to connect the second gear... thats why the 40t gear is there

- even bigger then the turntable

 

I would need a 4t-gear to fix the 16t clutch-gear withing the 24t turntable, or any other solution, how this could be built smaller...

The Differential, and the 16t gear are the only ones with clutch, right?

Who has an idea? I am up to everything :)

[PROlego]

Well, there is this simple idea by Sariel, but I guess it is not at all good enough. http://sariel.pl/2009/01/linear-clutch/

[mocbuild101]

Here's some ideas:

Key:

• Green = output to wheel
• Yellow & Blue = Input
• Pink gear = need to use part 6542
• Brown half-bush = need to use part 4265a

Note: the two replaced parts both have teeth on them, which are connected so that the (red) clutch can engage the output axle.

Note 2: different colored axles don't connect, see the image below - which has all gear and clutch parts hidden:

[TechnicSummse]

5 hours ago, mocbuild101 said:

Here's some ideas:

 

First idea is not in line and needs moving gears, this is what i wanted to avoid.

Second idea i also tried... but... how to fix the half bush+ clutch gear, to make sure they dont move in opposite direction and loose the connection to each other?

[doug72]

1 hour ago, TechnicSummse said:

Second idea i also tried... but... how to fix the half bush+ clutch gear, to make sure they dont move in opposite direction and loose the connection to each other?

You need a half bush with teeth to mesh with the teeth on the older style grey 16T clutch gear which locks them together.

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by Doug72

[TechnicSummse]

46 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

You need a half bush with teeth to mesh with the teeth on the older style grey 16T clutch gear which locks them together.

 

yes.. in know this... but they will be smaller then 2 stud together when the teeth are fit together... and they can slide out again... how do i prevent this?

[doug72]

Just now, TechnicSummse said:

yes.. in know this... but they will be smaller then 2 stud together when the teeth are fit together... and they can slide out again... how do i prevent this?

Add another plain half bush, friction on the axle will hold them in place.

[mocbuild101]

2 hours ago, TechnicSummse said:

how to fix the half bush+ clutch gear, to make sure they dont move in opposite direction and loose the connection to each other?

Already solved that, if you look at the second image, you will see that it is connected via an axle with stud:

And don't forget, there is nothing better than brickstorming!

 

Edited September 18, 2017 by mocbuild101

[TechnicSummse]

6 hours ago, mocbuild101 said:

Already solved that, if you look at the second image, you will see that it is connected via an axle with stud:

And don't forget, there is nothing better than brickstorming!

 

The small ring on the side of the stud makes it impossible for the teeth of the half-bush to mesh with the small teeth of the 16t-clutch-gear :(

[doug72]

27 minutes ago, TechnicSummse said:

The small ring on the side of the stud makes it impossible for the teeth of the half-bush to mesh with the small teeth of the 16t-clutch-gear :(

You need to  put axle through clutch gear first and then put half bush with teeth onto axle on the other side to mesh with teeth on back of clutch gear.

Tried it with both a 3L axle with stud and a 3L axle with stop and works OK.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Doug72

[mocbuild101]

Just now, Doug72 said:

You need to  put axle through clutch gear first and then put half bush with teeth onto axle on the other side to mesh with teeth on back of clutch gear.

Tried it with both a 3L axle with stud and a 3L axle with stop and works OK.

Exactly! The stud on the axle goes into the driving ring extension, then you put on the gear (with teeth), and then the half-bush (with teeth). Then the stop on the axle will compensate for the teeth meshing together... I think...  (I think I will try it myself to make sure)

(and yes, I made a mistake in LDD - that's why it doesn't show it properly)

Edited September 19, 2017 by mocbuild101

[TechnicSummse]

Quote

(and yes, I made a mistake in LDD - that's why it doesn't show it properly)

Ah... i thaught so... but i just tested it, like in your picture, where the stud is in the 16t-gear.

I don't own a driving ring extension, thats why i cannot test it the other way. But if i think about it...like that...

 

...the Stud of the 3l-stud axle will collide with the 2l axle of the extension ring? And will force the 16t gear to sit a bit (the wide of the stud on the axle) away from the driving ring... which will give a bad connection, when shifted? 

 

8 hours ago, Doug72 said:

You need to  put axle through clutch gear first and then put half bush with teeth onto axle on the other side to mesh with teeth on back of clutch gear.

Tried it with both a 3L axle with stud and a 3L axle with stop and works OK.

No problems like described above?

And also no problems, that the driving ring while shifting will push the 16t gear+bush in the direction of the bush... and like this free the bush from the connection?

Edited September 19, 2017 by TechnicSummse

[mocbuild101]

Just now, TechnicSummse said:

...the Stud of the 3l-stud axle will collide with the 2l axle of the extension ring? And will force the 16t gear to sit a bit (the wide of the stud on the axle) away from the driving ring... which will give a bad connection, when shifted?

Oh yeah, I didn't think about that...

This is why I normally don't design things with LDD... I requires a lot more brain power to ensure real-world compatibility!

But... I managed to find a solution!

And with hidden parts:

• The space between the white beams is exactly 5 studs
• The ends of the axles protruding from outside the white beams are exactly 1 stud (for the grey), and 2 studs (for the black).
• All parts will fit together perfectly without stress.

Also, if you look closely at the first image, you will see that I even managed to mesh the gear with the half-bush! (using LDD's developer mode)

I haven't tested this in real-life yet, but I can't see why it wouldn't work!

 

[doug72]

This works and fits within a 5 x 7 frame. Right hand grey clutch gear does not have teeth.

Opps a yellow half bush missing  from left hand side in exploded image !
There should be a plain half bush (yellow) between 2L axle joiner & half bush with teeth as shown in top assembled unit. 

2L red axle not used and there is no free play with this arrangment.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Doug72
Updated

[TechnicSummse]

4 hours ago, mocbuild101 said:

Oh yeah, I didn't think about that...

This is why I normally don't design things with LDD... I requires a lot more brain power to ensure real-world compatibility!

But... I managed to find a solution!

 

And with hidden parts:

 

• The space between the white beams is exactly 5 studs
• The ends of the axles protruding from outside the white beams are exactly 1 stud (for the grey), and 2 studs (for the black).
• All parts will fit together perfectly without stress.

Also, if you look closely at the first image, you will see that I even managed to mesh the gear with the half-bush! (using LDD's developer mode)

I haven't tested this in real-life yet, but I can't see why it wouldn't work!

 

 

1 hour ago, Doug72 said:

 

This works and fits within a 5 x 7 frame. Right hand grey clutch gear does not have teeth.

Opps a yellow half bush missing  from left hand side in exploded image !
There should be a plain half bush (yellow) between 2L axle joiner & half bush with teeth as shown in top assembled unit. 

2L red axle not used and there is no free play with this arrangment.

Thank you alot... both ideas are pretty much the same, and look really good to me :)

The weak point here, in both ideas, seems to be the point where the axle with stop meets the connector(s axle).

Will it be strong enough when shifted? And doesnt it wobble to much when it is unshifted?

I will defenetly test your idea @Doug72 at the evening, when i'm at home.

 

It is nice to see, the stop of the axle adds exactly the space wich the bush/gear-connection comsumes... i was thinking all the time, how to add just such a lottle space... you had the right idea :)

[doug72]

Just now, TechnicSummse said:

Will it be strong enough when shifted? And doesnt it wobble to much when it is unshifted?

I@Doug72

Wobbles a tiny bit when it is not shifted but OK when it is engaged, its easy to fit extra support for yellow axle by adding bracing to the right side of 5x7 frame.

There's a tiny bit of lateral movement (0.5mm) but its liverble with & I can see no way to totally eliminate it.

[TechnicSummse]

9 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

Wobbles a tiny bit when it is not shifted but OK when it is engaged, its easy to fit extra support for yellow axle by adding bracing to the right side of 5x7 frame.

There's a tiny bit of lateral movement (0.5mm) but its liverble with & I can see no way to totally eliminate it.

Well... i will defenetly try it at the evening :)

After seeing your idea now.. i am thinking about using this, instead of the 3l-stop-axle, to eleminate the wobbling:

But you would need a pinhole instead of an axle-hole on the connector on wich the driving ring sits...

Edited September 19, 2017 by TechnicSummse

[Aventador2004]

I noticed you are using the old gearbox element, when the new changeover fits both.

Fits both old and new, and without extra backlash from extender.

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Aventador2004

[doug72]

4 minutes ago, Aventador2004 said:

I noticed you are using the old gearbox element, when the new changeover fits both.

Because you can only LOCK an older 16T clutch gear with teeth to an axle using a half bush with teeth.
This is not is not possible with any other types of clutch gear 
i.e double sided red ones and grey ones with pin hole with plain collar without teeth .

[Aventador2004]

17 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

Because you can only LOCK an older 16T clutch gear with teeth to an axle using a half bush with teeth.
This is not is not possible with any other types of clutch gear 
i.e double sided red ones and grey ones with pin hole with plain collar without teeth .

I mean using the grey element in this picture:

[mocbuild101]

1 hour ago, TechnicSummse said:

Will it be strong enough when shifted? And doesnt it wobble to much when it is unshifted?

That's where the driving ring extender (DRE) comes in, because the DRE fits over all three parts (inside of gear, 2L axle, and axle + stop), which means that all the parts are connected and supported.

1 hour ago, Aventador2004 said:

I noticed you are using the old gearbox element, when the new changeover fits both.

But there is no difference in function, only that the new version is a stud longer.

 

[Aventador2004]

Oh, I did not realize the DRE holds it all together.

[mocbuild101]

I just tested the design, and it work great (with very little wobble), but for some reason, there is still an extra ~1-2 mm gap on the axle...

Let me know if you want photos or video, I just thought they wouldn't be needed.