The LEGO Group takes civil actions against LEPIN

[Ltfalcon]

This is no different than branded vs generic drugs. Yes we know the branded companies make investments for the original product and they own that market for a time period. The generic product is also not a 100% clone of the original, but they both serve there needs.

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

39 minutes ago, Ltfalcon said:

This is no different than branded vs generic drugs. Yes we know the branded companies make investments for the original product and they own that market for a time period. The generic product is also not a 100% clone of the original, but they both serve there needs.

That's different, though. Drugs can save lives, and if I recall correctly, the patent is only temporary, and other companies are allowed to make generic products only after a while.

[dr_spock]

Patents do expire.  Depending on the country, around 20 years?  A patent gives the patentee the rights to exclude others from making, using, selling, importing the patented invention in the country where the patent was granted.  International treaty may also protect patent rights of the countries that signed the treaty.  Technically, if I am in a country where the inventor wasn't granted a patent for his invention and my country didn't sign a patent protection treaty with the country where the patent was granted, I could do whatever with his invention. Maybe except import it into a country protected by the patent, in which case he could take legal recourse to stop that.  Also the types of invention that can be patented can vary from country to country.  It can get pretty complicated if you do business internationally.  What applies in one country, may not in another.

We don't know if LEGO is suing on patent infringement or copyright or trademark or all of the above.  Hopefully, we'll get more details as things progress through the courts.

 

 

[1980-Something-Space-Guy]

1 hour ago, dr_spock said:

Patents do expire.  Depending on the country, around 20 years?  A patent gives the patentee the rights to exclude others from making, using, selling, importing the patented invention in the country where the patent was granted.  International treaty may also protect patent rights of the countries that signed the treaty.  Technically, if I am in a country where the inventor wasn't granted a patent for his invention and my country didn't sign a patent protection treaty with the country where the patent was granted, I could do whatever with his invention. Maybe except import it into a country protected by the patent, in which case he could take legal recourse to stop that.  Also the types of invention that can be patented can vary from country to country.  It can get pretty complicated if you do business internationally.  What applies in one country, may not in another.

We don't know if LEGO is suing on patent infringement or copyright or trademark or all of the above.  Hopefully, we'll get more details as things progress through the courts.

 

 

Thanks for the legal background. Law is certainly something that overwhelms me as a STEM person.

[8421XXL]

Good news! 

It is very sad to see companies, like TLG, who invest a lot of time and money in research and development being ripped off / copied by other companies.

I hope the Chinese legal system will rule in favour of TLG.

[paul_delahaye]

I hope Lego win this case, but there was a similar one years ago with BMW and an X5, the Chinese had make an exact (looking) copy of an X5 with a different badge on the front, and when BMW took them to court, the government threw the case out saying it looked nothing like an X5.  Protection of their own economy.

I'm actually wondering, many companies move production to China for cheap production, and as soon as the Chinese see the volumes and potential opportunity involved, the product is copied within 3 - 6 months.  So it makes you wonder if the speed of copying by companies like Lepin, would not be so agressive, had Lego not moved some of their own production to China, with things like the blind packet minifigs? 

[Capparezza]

Chinese workers are still cheap. Also there are less worries about environmental impact of factories over there. So it's no big wonder why more and more western companies shifted their production to China. And that the Chinese have always been diligent and fast copiers of western technology isn't novel.

 

Well, if Lego would be less focused on making only a limited run of certain sets and instead kept it longer on the shelves, there would be no reason for me to buy the cheap Lepin copy. I'd really like to have those modulars that came out in my Dark Ages or the Emerald Night, but second hand prices are just hilarious. I guess if those would have been longer in stores (for one or two years), there would be no need for such price inflation and no need for anyone to even think about getting a (way cheaper) knockoff. They could as well reissue these sets to dry up Lepin sales.

 

But I guess that's just one side of the coin, there sure are other reasons why these copies get sold.

 

PS: And no, I'm still patient. I won't ever buy any of these knockoffs

[The Architect]

Solid stuff! These knockoffs are getting out of hand.

[62Bricks]

Here is an interesting development - Alibaba, the Chinese online marketplace company, has started to sue manufacturers of fake goods after the US put pressure on them: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-04/alibaba-sues-two-sellers-of-fake-swarovski-watches-in-crackdown

Lots of LEPIN is sold on alibaba. Whether or not they consider it "fake" I couldn't say.

[dr_spock]

1 hour ago, 62Bricks said:

Here is an interesting development - Alibaba, the Chinese online marketplace company, has started to sue manufacturers of fake goods after the US put pressure on them: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-04/alibaba-sues-two-sellers-of-fake-swarovski-watches-in-crackdown

Lots of LEPIN is sold on alibaba. Whether or not they consider it "fake" I couldn't say.

Interesting. I saw on the TV the founder of Alibaba meeting with Trump a few days ago.

 

[Faefrost]

30 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

Interesting. I saw on the TV the founder of Alibaba meeting with Trump a few days ago.

 

Yep. Jack Ma is planning on investing $100 million into a US business branch in the next few months. Which could explain his sudden interest in recognizing Copyrights and Trademarks. 

[danth]

I talked to someone who bought a Lepin UCS Millennium Falcon and was super happy to get that set for a reasonable price (hundreds instead of thousands). I understand wanting to get a good deal but psychologically I couldn't deal with having a fake. I need the real deal. I still remember (from childhood) years of finding Tyco blocks mixed in with my Legos and throwing them away in disgust. For some reason I have strong brand loyalty to Lego. But I guess there are people who are just fine with a cheap knock off. 

[monkles]

On 9/24/2016 at 2:26 AM, Ltfalcon said:

This is no different than branded vs generic drugs. Yes we know the branded companies make investments for the original product and they own that market for a time period. The generic product is also not a 100% clone of the original, but they both serve there needs.

Generic drugs are the same product as brand name, this is why they have a brand name and a scientific name of the compound determined by IUPAC. Generic Lego is inferior, it is a fundamentally different product.

A better example for the drugs one would be producing literal Lego in a factory and then marketing it as "Green Grocer toy building blocks" without any brand name applied.

Edit: In a perverse way, if they're discontinued soon then the Lepin sets actually may be worth something for being an oddity.

Edited January 18, 2017 by monkles
idea

[MAB]

Have you used Lepin, and can you confirm it is inferior, or are you speculating about the quality?

 

Part of the problem seems to stem from their quality is very good, and that the main difference is the Lego name on the bricks.

[BrickG]

On 9/24/2016 at 3:26 AM, Ltfalcon said:

This is no different than branded vs generic drugs. Yes we know the branded companies make investments for the original product and they own that market for a time period. The generic product is also not a 100% clone of the original, but they both serve there needs.

This is nothing like that. And the needs of drugs is obviously more important and flat out IP stealing and stuff. Star Wnrs?

How would you like it if you made a cool IP and someone changed a letter and nothing else and started making money off it? It's ridiculous. I hope Lego wins totally and completely.

 

I mean seriously...

I'd question anyone's moral fibre if they're okay with stuff like that. That's just STEALING. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by BrickG

[monkles]

Quote

Star Wnrs

13 hours ago, MAB said:

Have you used Lepin, and can you confirm it is inferior, or are you speculating about the quality?

Part of the problem seems to stem from their quality is very good, and that the main difference is the Lego name on the bricks.

Watch the reviews and parts simply do not function as well as Lego. Movable parts don't work, doors fall off, prints are not uniform, and boards warp. Also you have no idea what the bricks will look like in 20 or 30 years, while I can pick up any piece of 80s Lego and use it in a modern MOC without it looking out of place or breaking.

[danth]

What I don't understand is:

 

1) How do they print the same exact pieces just without the Lego name on each stud? Do they recreate each mold? I assume that would be too expensive.

2) What's the point of even removing the Lego prints on the studs? It's already a blatant rip off anyway. Why not go for a total forgery?

Edited January 19, 2017 by danth

[Darkdragon]

38 minutes ago, danth said:

Do they recreate each mold?

Of course, that is exactly what they do. They create their own molds to create the copies of the parts. Why would they print the Lego logo on the parts, that would make no sense at all.

[Lyichir]

1 hour ago, danth said:

What I don't understand is:

 

1) How do they print the same exact pieces just without the Lego name on each stud? Do they recreate each mold? I assume that would be too expensive.

2) What's the point of even removing the Lego prints on the studs? It's already a blatant rip off anyway. Why not go for a total forgery?

Recreating the molds is not actually as expensive as you might think. Firstly, much of the expensive work of designing and engineering each part is already out of the way. Secondly, they do not necessarily have to maintain the same tolerances and durability of Lego's own precision-engineered steel molds. So while Lego pays a huge amount to ensure that they can continue producing millions of parts very precisely with a single mold, a smaller operation like Lepin can cut corners on the overall quality and does not need to produce nearly the same quantity of parts to break even.

As for removing the Lego prints on the studs, that's an easy modification to make when creating new molds, and gives them a certain amount of plausible deniability. You need only look at the number of Lego fans in this very forum (or the even larger number on Brickset) whose definitions of counterfeiting are so narrow that they can try to defend Lepin as a legitimate competitor or alternative to Lego on the mere grounds that they do not falsely claim that their product is actual Lego.

[xboxtravis7992]

I hope Lego is successful at this. I just saw an advertisment for some knock-off Star Wars figures today, and was shocked that not only were people actually being fooled into buying them; but the seller was selling them off for nearly as expensive as getting the real stuff. Awful market that is out there.

[MAB]

On 19/01/2017 at 10:30 AM, monkles said:

Watch the reviews and parts simply do not function as well as Lego. Movable parts don't work, doors fall off, prints are not uniform, and boards warp. Also you have no idea what the bricks will look like in 20 or 30 years, while I can pick up any piece of 80s Lego and use it in a modern MOC without it looking out of place or breaking.

 

We don't know what genuine lego will be like in 20 years time though. Their standards have slipped. You only need to look how many cracked torsos and cheese slopes there are these days.

 

22 hours ago, danth said:

What I don't understand is:

 

1) How do they print the same exact pieces just without the Lego name on each stud? Do they recreate each mold? I assume that would be too expensive.

2) What's the point of even removing the Lego prints on the studs? It's already a blatant rip off anyway. Why not go for a total forgery?

 

Because there is a difference between copying and counterfeiting. If they had LEGO on the studs, it would be counterfeit. But Lepin do not pretend to be LEGO. They are free to make many (but not all) of the parts. Copying sets is a different matter, and is probably what LEGO are trying to prove in court.

 

15 hours ago, xboxtravis7992 said:

I hope Lego is successful at this. I just saw an advertisment for some knock-off Star Wars figures today, and was shocked that not only were people actually being fooled into buying them; but the seller was selling them off for nearly as expensive as getting the real stuff. Awful market that is out there.

 

How do you know they were fooled into buying them, as in not knowing they were fake? There are many knock off minifigures that are way cheaper than lego. That is normally the reason people buy them, as they are much cheaper than lego. I have a few of them, but I was never fooled into buying them. I knew exactly what I was buying.

[monkles]

17 hours ago, xboxtravis7992 said:

I hope Lego is successful at this. I just saw an advertisment for some knock-off Star Wars figures today, and was shocked that not only were people actually being fooled into buying them; but the seller was selling them off for nearly as expensive as getting the real stuff. Awful market that is out there.

The used market has really been on fire for the last half decade. Way back when... 15 years ago ... sets would usually decline in value and now they easily hold value or increase for the rares. I think the real impact of Lepin will be the proliferation of Lepin parts in the used market, leading to massive mistrust from buyers and probably a more uneven market - trusted sellers earn more per set, casual/garage sale sellers earn less.

[BrickG]

I hate Lepin and everything it stands for but I just noticed they have an affordable USC Millennium Falcon. Hahaha....  God I'm so desperate for that set I'd almost buy it.

[antp]

On 03/10/2016 at 11:26 PM, paul_delahaye said:

I hope Lego win this case, but there was a similar one years ago with BMW and an X5, the Chinese had make an exact (looking) copy of an X5 with a different badge on the front, and when BMW took them to court, the government threw the case out saying it looked nothing like an X5.  Protection of their own economy.

It was not an exact copy. It has the same style, they copied the whole design, but even on a photo you directly see it is not the same (and each part is probably a little different). But indeed saying they did not copy was still hypocrite.

[ctx1769]

The worst that Lepin is doing now is stealing builders most from lego ideas and the rebrickable website without even contacting the builders, totally disgusting