2001 = The best Bionicle year?

[Clonie]

Sadly they're trying to twist the story to fit the sets, it seems. That tends to stretch things to the unbelievable, rather than making a story, which should be more important, and making sets about that. However they're more worried about sales, which is great by a business standpoint, but not a good idea if you want a deep, cohesive, believable story.

They make explanations for everything that happens though. They are reasonable to me. For example, the backstory of the cordak blasters and zamor launchers. The Toa Terrain Crawler. Etcetera.

[Visorak-kal]

Clonie:

And a world 100,000 + years old shouldn't have tech of any kind.

Precisely.

Let's face it, there are only two reasons why 2001-2003 did not have high-tech.

Set-Wise: Because LEGO assumed that low-tech with high-tech sold. They later found out that more high-tech sold better.

Story-Wise: Because the high-tech people had lost their memories and were stuck on a low-tech island with no high-tech materials. Furthermore, the Turaga, the only people who still remembered, were not high-tech builders who invented that stuff. Do you know how to invent a computer with nothing but island materials?

Lord Admiral:

Face it; high-tech beings in a primitive setting with a mixture of tribal and ancient high-tech technology was far more interesting then the high-tech shooting blaster-mayhem it is today, and was far more original for a toy line story.

As I've said before; Bionicle has become generic.

Firstly, it is not shooting blaster-mayhem today. The story is just as good as it ever was. Secodly, you are naturally relating bad story to high-tech. Why?

Lastly, Bionicle is in no way generic. Buildable action figures is what made BIONICLE different; they are still buildable, far as i can see. If LEGO decides to make them completely action figures without construction, they I would complain, seeing as LEGO is a brick company. But that is not happening.

Tohst:

Since that time there have been a lot of twists and turns and the focus seems to have changed from these heroes mystical elemental powers to the 'weapon of the week' (well, weapon of the year). which personally I find less interesting. Would I have done it different? Yes.

The whole discovering the greater world and backstory around them angle was great. But, I would've made the Matoran heroes in their own right. As the larger story opened up the Toa are outclassed. Big fish in the small Mata Nui pond. But Matoran, being the chosen creatures in this universe, are blessed with imagination and the ability to reverse engineer things. Instead of the power ups of each set of toa being fairly random, they are a result of Matoran ingenuity. The Toa find a vat of energized protodermis. The Matoran realize they can use it to enhance the Toa. But at what cost. You don't need to come up with a new team or a convoluted upgrade path. Its built into a story and emphasizes Lego values of creativity and engineering. As well as making Matoran heroes in their own right. And adding a greater degree of peril if these ad-hoc upgrades go wrong (Hordika anyone?). Ravi could be modified (like the current Crawler) but more so because they were originally created with the interfaces needed rather than anyone having tech advanced to that level.

I don't think the story focuses on the weapon, Tohst. Take a look at '07 comics, serials, and books, and you will see that the Cordaks are in no way the main focus of the story.

Furthermore, the Matoran are not the main heroes because they don't sell. Making them the main heroes would end BIONICLE fast. Also, people always complain about constant transformation; there was just a topic on BZP saying that there are too many transformations. Now you say you would prefer that the originals be constantly transformed? You know how many fans that agree with a lot of what you say would hate you for that?

Finally, do higher sales mean a 'better' story? No. Return of the Jedi did better at the box office than Empire Strikes Back. Or for you youngins 'Episode 1' blew the original trilogy away. But higher sales does mean a continuation of the story and toys, which I think we all agree is a good thing.

I can't wait until the end of this 'book' and the restart that is being talked about. I think this current incarnation may have hit a rut based on early decisions and would love to see them take this same universe down a different path. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy and complain in roughtly equal parts.

You seem to think that the Empire Strikes Back had better story than Episode I and Return of the Jedi. Personally, Return of the Jedi remains my favorite STAR WARS. Also, you are referring to movies. You have to remember that box office sellings are sold to people who have not yet seen the movie. Therefore, it is not an accurate judgement of story equating to sales.

Better sets with the majority do equate to better sales, as the looks determien whether or not they will be bought.

4J:

From what I understood, that was some sort of lost technology, wasn't it? That's different than everyone running around like a SWAT member...and it was just one small instance, it didn't permeate the story, nor was it a critical part in that year's theme.

However, I wasn't a fan of that either It was clearly, though, sales from that set that pushed the release of more shooting weapons and the like.

Actually, it was Brotherhood of Makuta technology. And the Toa Mahri are not advertised as SWAT team or any attack team; they are still advertised as "heroes." And Cordak blasters are not permeating the story any more than the Exo-Toa did. The Exo-Toa "blasters" helped the Toa survive the Bahrag long enough for them to shed the armor and entrap the beasts. The Cordak blasters this year will help the Toa destroy a hollow stone cord. Neither was used to kill enemies, and that will not happen in the future either.

And yes, that probably did show that sales improve with higher-tech.

EDIT: Here is the continuation from the previous page.

VK

[Starwars4J]

4J:

Actually, it was Brotherhood of Makuta technology. And the Toa Mahri are not advertised as SWAT team or any attack team; they are still advertised as "heroes."

A group of heroes who come fully armed and armored, more like an elite task force than heroes...

And Cordak blasters are not permeating the story any more than the Exo-Toa did.

But they're ALWAYS there. They're the main weapons. They're in every set. They're in every panel. They do permeate more.

[Visorak-kal]

Ok, hopefully I don't have too many quotes this time.

Tohst:

Or is it Matoran don't sell because they aren't the heroes? The entire structure is currently set up to push Toa. Thats also why in a Spider man line, there will be 37 versions of SpiderMan to each Mary Jane figure. And I didn't say Matoran would be the only heroes. Its the difference between the Lone Ranger (or 3 amigos) showing a town how to fight back and Superman flying in and saving the day.

And there is a difference between 'constant transformations' and upgrading based on need and ability. Its the difference between a dues es machina (or course, is it really this if the story structure is consistantly dependant on it?) transforming our heroes to be able to function underwater and them making modifications to go underwater because thats where there journey leads.

You're wrong here because in 2001 the Matoran WERE the heroes. Stated multiple times by Greg Farshtey, the original creator of BIONICLE, Bob Thompson, intended the Matoran to be the main focus of the story and for them to be the main heroes; the Toa were simply "larger than life." Notice how MNOLG, the main story medium for that year, focuses mainly on Matoran rather than Toa. Takua is the main focus.

After 2001, it was realized that the Toa sold better than Rahi and Turaga; then it was decided that the story had to focus more on Toa, because the Toa were the sets that were actually selling. The structure is set up to push Toa because A. Kids prefer heroes that look heroic, and B. Toa sets sell, the matoran are called "impulse sets" because they are bought on impulse, they are not the most important selling points of the line.

For your second point, on transformations, let me refer you to the Master of BIONICLE contest that I recently won along with Trexxen.

There was a challenge that requested the contestants to make storyline and set changes for the year. One option was whether we should make a new team of Toa, transform older Toa, make Mata Nui the lone hero, or make an entirely new team of heroes that is not Toa.

I selected to make an entirely new team of Toa; for me, there were only two possible options. A new team of Toa, or a transformed team of Toa. Why? Because A. Mata Nui as a lone hero is dumb, and B. The market knows "Toa" as BIONICLE's heroes. To change that would be to waste all the hype that has been built around Toa. This hype doesn't come from BIONICLE marketing, but from the fans. The Rahi and Turaga didn't sell in 2001; the Toa did. The Toa have always been viewed as the heroes and main characters, despite Bob Thompson's original plan for the Matoran to be the main focus. The buyers voted otherwise, and in this case I think the buyers were correct.

So since Toa must be kept, that leaves us with either making new Toa or transforming old Toa. If BIONICLE had new Toa every year, we would all be complaining that they abandon older characters too quickly. (This would definitely be the case, because story cannot focus on characters that are not sets for that year.) Therefore, transforming a team of Toa (and consequently thinking up a story reason for it) allows Bionicle to keep its characters for more than one year. I think we would all have been upset if the Toa Mata, Toa Metru and Toa Inika had all lasted one year, and then been abandoned for a new team of Toa which the story now had to support.

Transforming older Toa in different ways in the only way to retain those characters. LEGO has done this in different ways, with vareity. The Toa Nuva were transformed by energized protodermis into the most powerful Toa. (Yes, despite the Mahri's Cordak blasters, LEGO still acknowledges that weapons do not make a hero.) The Toa Metru were transformed by Visorak venom in Toa Hordika. The Toa Hordika were unpopular because they didn't look like heroes, which was a result of the only time LEGO has done story before sets. The Toa Mahri were transformed by the Mask of Life to work in their new aquatic environment. All of those are reasonable.

TO add on to this, sometimes we also need a new Toa team because otherwise people complain, "You just keep transforming these Toa over and over!"

I realized in Master of BIONICLE that the Toa Nuva and Toa Inika have already been transformed at least once, so it would probably be best to make a new team of Toa to keep variety. For me, any other hero group was not an option.

Heck yeah, Empire Strikes Back was a better tory than RotJ. And blew away Episode 1. In terms of story structure, the freedom of knowing there was a third movie coming as well as not having to introduce every character (not to mention dialogue not written by Lucas) lent to a script that actually had depth. Plus AT-ATs for the win!

And you kid yourself if you think selling a movie is different than selling toys. In movies, you have trailers that give away big plot points, you have reviews, and you have word of mouth which is what drives blockbusters that actually survive past the first week. You show me a movie that loses 75% of its audience between weeks 1 and 2 and I'll show you a bad movie. And thats not even getting into sequels where people go to see the movie precisely because they have seen it before. Toys are the same. Sure you see the pictures on the box (the preview) but you only get to open it up and play with it after buying it (your ticket) and you only buy the rest of the series after you're done with that one (repeat viewers and DVD buys).

Maybe the difference in how we view the story/sets is reflected in our favorite star wars movie. There are those that recognize the greatness of Empire and those that love ewoks

True, I concede that point. I didn't think about trailers, typically because I don't watch them on television that often. But see, a customer buying one Toa is not going to make the sales that I quote. Customers have to be buying multiple Toa, which means that have built one and like the direction these sets are going.

And it's not the Ewoks, it's the lightning from the Emperor's hands! It's just too cool! :-D

Sadly they're trying to twist the story to fit the sets, it seems. That tends to stretch things to the unbelievable, rather than making a story, which should be more important, and making sets about that. However they're more worried about sales, which is great by a business standpoint, but not a good idea if you want a deep, cohesive, believable story.

Well, they always have to twist the story to fit the sets as the sets are the drivers. However, I still believe that decisions were made early on, especially in terms of transformations, that hamper Greg F.'s ability to deviate from the little rut he has carved out for himself. The next question becomes could he bust out of the rut or are story constraints coming from corporate as well telling him to be risk adverse? If he even wanted to could he expand on the definition of 'Toa' to include other champions outside of the mask-wearing elemental power using ex-Matoran? Or is it, hey, This concept of Toa has worked so far and when we tried changing them a bit more (Hordika Hordika Hordika) sales dropped and people complained so stick with the tried and true toa template (say that ten times fast).

The quote within the quote is StarWars4J's.

Sadly, StarWars4J, that is exactly the case. I wish as much as you that story could come first and sets after, but that is not the way it can work. If story came first, it influences the sets, which is not always a good thing. As Tohst says in his quote above, the Hordika are the only example of story coming before sets. it didn't work. Having sets first allows the designers to put in what they know the audience wants, and then the story can evolve around that. Still, I think the story does manage to remain reasonable and make sense. And yes, they are more worried about sales, because for all the great story in the world, BIONICLE is dead if it has no sales.

Tohst, Greg cannot burst out of the story constraints given to him. He explained in a topic on BZP that if he is told that Vezon and Fenrakk need more screen-time due to sales, then he has to give them more screen time and focus in the comics. The only advantage he has over the constraints is that the books he writes more than a year before the sets actually come out, and for those he is only bound to Scholastic, which is more towards books sales than set sales. That is why I love the books; if you read them, you will see that the story is great, despite the terrible appearance it may have in the comics. To tell the truth, when I go back and read the early comics, I find it difficult to enjoy them as much as did back then. Their stories are plot-thin! But they are comics, and they are just there to advance the plot; they serve no other purpose or they wouldn't be free.

StarWars4J:

A group of heroes who come fully armed and armored, more like an elite task force than heroes...

How armed a group of heroes is has nothing to do with whether or not they are heroes. And some of them, like Hewkii and Hahli, are just as armored as the old Toa Mata were.

But they're ALWAYS there. They're the main weapons. They're in every set. They're in every panel. They do permeate more.

Set-wise, yes, they are always visible. But by reading the books and comics you will see that their focus is not main the story. Basically, in Comic 9, the Cordaks are advertised in ONE PANEL! The story focuses more on the Toa's elemental powers and physical attributes, though these Toa of course are not as physically trained as the Toa Mata were. The Cordaks (in terms of the Toa Mahri) serve only one purpose, which is to destroy the Cord. They are very visible since they are in almost every set, but story-wise they do not permeate much more than the Exo-Toa. In fact, only Hewkii, Nuparu, and Hydraxon used the Cordaks in Book 7. Hewkii and Nuparu use them to break a mountain so that giant eels will not eat them, and Hydraxon uses it to try and destroy the Kanohi Ignika.

VK

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

Notice how the squid launcher was never mentioned until BL#7...? Notice they were in there more than the Cordak's?

-ZotS

[Clonie]

4J,

You assume too much. Have you read the books? No. Yet you claim to know everything. You claim that the entire story is built around cordak blasters.

V-K,

Hahli also used her cordak blaster, in her fight with Mantax, but she wasn't even aiming at him.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Clonie

[JINZONINGEN73]

I see a lot of the criticism of the ongoing direction of Bionicle as the 'thats not how I would do it variety.'

And you know what. Thats perfectly valid! And to a point, I'm right there with them. 2001 introduced us to a world filled with mystery, mysticism, and Bio-Mechanical (non-robot) beings. Yes, there is a lot of nostalgia towards that but hey, it was good and interesting.

Since that time there have been a lot of twists and turns and the focus seems to have changed from these heroes mystical elemental powers to the 'weapon of the week' (well, weapon of the year). which personally I find less interesting. Would I have done it different? Yes.

And me? HELL yes. lol

See, I cherish the tribal origins Bionicle had, but being robot-like, I knew the line would likely deviate into hi-tech at some point.

And, had the character designs, plastic quality, story and new part designs not been horrendously suckass, there would technically be nothing wrong at all with the line going all SWAT team NAVY Seal.

Drastic changes to anything is good, if it's done well.

But Bionicle has primarily been executed in a halfass manner for a good while now.

Drastic redirection is accentuated when all the detrimental qualities elsewhere are paired with it.

Do you realize how many Technic fans, in 2001, were saying "Technic HUMANOIDS with MASKS and SWORDS? That never should have been!" There is no founding to say that those things never should have been.

Was it really like that? I noticed Throwbots and Roboriders, along with their action-figurey joints... but it wasn't until seeing the tribal mask-wearing figures that I bothered to buy anything of Lego. To me, the Throwbots were a bunch of freaks with perhaps the most horrendous proportions and set designs one could imagine.

I think one guy's weapon was a piece of technic panel fairing! It wasn't until Bionicle that elements popped up that could convince me there were actually people thoughtfully designing things, both due to hand weapon and mask sculpting. The Throwbots and Roboriders all had pretty much the same damn heads!

[Zarkan]

Was it really like that? I noticed Throwbots and Roboriders, along with their action-figurey joints... but it wasn't until seeing the tribal mask-wearing figures that I bothered to buy anything of Lego. To me, the Throwbots were a bunch of freaks with perhaps the most horrendous proportions and set designs one could imagine

Hah! It's still like that today! Just look at the "worst lego theme" topic that was revived some time ago. Bionicle happens to be at the top of the list, and not suprisingly, many members here still think Bionicle is not real lego. I respect their opinion of course, since it has been true since day one that Bionicle is one of the most controversial themes to date. Just the very concept sent many AFOL's heads spinning. :-P

Yeah, some AFOLS have warmed up to bionicle, but many still really dislike the theme (okay, HATE :-P ), and I understand why. ;-)

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

WARNING: I JUST WOKE UP WHEN I WROTE THIS, SO IT RAMBLES. SORRY.

Allright, let me make my point a bit clearer.

I am not against technology in Bionicle. I am not against a more expansive, advanced setting.

I am against "lulz, lets make random crazy s***".

It took me a while to warm up to it, but I am a diehard fan of 2004 and Metru Nui; Metru Nui has a place in my heart right next to Mata-Nui. You see, I had been playing - and making up stories - for my Toa Mata (I never accepted the Nuva because, as Jinzo said, they were ugly as sin). I advanced the Mata-Nui world, and there was still potential for more. But then I got Toa Whenua; then Onewa, and then a Vahki, and I realised how much I liked the 2004 sets.

Mind you, unlike 05 and 06 and 07, I never said the 04 sets were bad. Clonish, yes, but a great step up from past sets. The 2004 line is still, IMHO, the best line to date, as it provided a solid all-around building experience and playing experience. 2005 just had poor sets period :P

Now, you see, Metru-Nui was the precursor to Mata-Nui. I found that intriguing. As the storyline was revealed and I watched the movie, I really liked the whole feel of Metru-Nui; there was so much to expand on. The city was like one great blank, but with its own style; they went to the trouble to invent things such as chutes. I loved it and I ran amok. Today, I have a very solid metru-nui and pre-metru-nui setting in which to play with my sets, with a full history.

But heres the thing. In Metru-Nui we had distinctly Bionicle technology; the disks were not simply weapons, but could be put to other uses and melted down and made into masks. The Matoran civilization was vastly intriguing, and provided a great setting. The technololgy... the architecture... all of it had a very unique and original feel to it. After I realised how awesome both the story setting and the sets were, I ate it up.

2005 had poor sets and a poorly-executed storyline; the movie was probably the best part out of the year. This was when Greg started to take over and Bionicle morphed from an origional story and setting to your average superhero story, with big generic baddies and superpowered "police". (Yes, Greg reffered to the Toa as police, not heroes.) The shooters while not my favorite were at least an original concept, and Rahi-Toa was also interesting. I took the basic ideas and morphed them and the sets into my own universe.

And then in 2006, it all went in the can.

The set quality went from "Poorly Designed" to "Gimmicky"; the Titans were the only thing that showed any signs of intelligent planning. The masks out-uglied the Nuva; the storyline was cheap and had no definite "Feel" to it. The comics, which previously had tried to tell a story, went to 12 pages of shooting and plot devices.

And swinging back around to the original note of "Technology", I got to watch as it went from Tribal>Unique advanced>Plain gimmicky/stupid. Now we have islands making thousands of war machines, we have chainguns, we have flaming ball-launchers; the technology - which I had valued as greatly as I value the tribal feel of 01-03 - went all to hell. The story, the sets, the technology - its all about shooting the enemy. Sure, the 07 animation is nice, but it's just a bunch of characters shooting at each other; the Barraki trailer had more depth then that.

Ugh. I have a hard time getting my point across; Jinzo probably did a better job. I just wanted to make clear that its not that I am anti-technology in the Bionicle universe, its that technology done as poorly as "LULZ, LASER-STONE GUNS an' SIX SHOT ROCKET LAUNCHERS" is seriously out of place in a universe that had established itself as original and unique for 5 years.

And guess what? Next year we get... ZAMOR CORDAKS!

Bleh. At least we get masks that dont suck.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn

[Tohst]

Was it really like that? I noticed Throwbots and Roboriders, along with their action-figurey joints... but it wasn't until seeing the tribal mask-wearing figures that I bothered to buy anything of Lego. To me, the Throwbots were a bunch of freaks with perhaps the most horrendous proportions and set designs one could imagine.

I think one guy's weapon was a piece of technic panel fairing! It wasn't until Bionicle that elements popped up that could convince me there were actually people thoughtfully designing things, both due to hand weapon and mask sculpting. The Throwbots and Roboriders all had pretty much the same damn heads!

There was so much hate it made the Baby Timmy cry.

I think the biggest issue most people had was it was called Technic. Technic was supposed to be Expert Builder sets and it felt like Lego threw a gear or two in and said 'ADVANCED!'

I think the second biggest issue most people had were the fact these weren't building sets. These were action figures. And until that first year of Bionicle, not very good action figures. In the case of RoboRiders, very very bad action figures.

So yeah, builders hated Bionicle. It was seen as the death of Lego. And truthfully, with all the juniorization going on at the time and Lego telling us kids don't like to actually build there was a concern that more complex building sets would never be back. Even in Mindstorms the emphasis was on the robotic programming. And in Bionicle, the more complex Rahi sets didn't sell like the action-figures (and yes, Visorak-Kal, I'm replying to you next ;-) ). Now, its turned out that good builders can use Bionicle pieces and more complex sets have appeared outside of Bionicle. But Bionicle is still mainly an action-figure line.

-Tohst

[Tohst]

Ok, hopefully I don't have too many quotes this time.

Tohst:

You're wrong here because in 2001 the Matoran WERE the heroes. Stated multiple times by Greg Farshtey, the original creator of BIONICLE, Bob Thompson, intended the Matoran to be the main focus of the story and for them to be the main heroes; the Toa were simply "larger than life." Notice how MNOLG, the main story medium for that year, focuses mainly on Matoran rather than Toa. Takua is the main focus.

But the whole story was finding the Toa to save everyone! If the purpose was to show the Matoran as the heroes it was only successful in the Boxor set because otherwise the Matoran scampered around trying to get the Toa to save them. I think it was a good introduction to these mysterious Toa but a horrible way to try to make Matoran the heroes.

After 2001, it was realized that the Toa sold better than Rahi and Turaga; then it was decided that the story had to focus more on Toa, because the Toa were the sets that were actually selling. The structure is set up to push Toa because A. Kids prefer heroes that look heroic, and B. Toa sets sell, the matoran are called "impulse sets" because they are bought on impulse, they are not the most important selling points of the line.

I don't know how well you remember 2001 but I can tell you this. The Toa were everywhere. That Matoran (Tahungu(?) were a McDonalds Happy Meal exclusive. The Turaga had horrible distribution, at least at first. The first picture of Bionicle many of us saw was from that year's catalog and it was Toa focused. That picture of Onua with the claws and the mask busting out at you. The Matoran weren't even in the catalog. So. the focus was very much on the Toa. To draw a parallel, thats why the Tick has his name on the show and the comic book and not Authur. Seriously, they are trying to say that the sets you could only get as a fast food promotion were the main focus?

Now, in 2008, initial images do show a larger focus on the Matoran. They attach to the Toa and the Phantoka-toka and fight along with them. The come with new masks instead of just recylced pieces. If the story line pushes these Matoran into the limelight instead of making them bit players designed to set up the scenes for the Toa and they still sell bad it would be excellent evidence that I was and am wrong. But there is a lot of wiggle room there for me to make excuses. X-D

For your second point, on transformations, let me refer you to the Master of BIONICLE contest that I recently won along with Trexxen.

And this is why I said before you have insight into how the Lego Group thinks. You agree with them, they agree with you. Its a good thing for you because it means you'll usually be happy with their decisions. It is a good thing for this board becauseyou can act as an oracle. But until I have the money and a time machine to found a building block company with a 75 year history and run it the way I want, all I can do is argue from my opinion and observations and know that your insight matches how the Bionicle team actually thinks. Since they don't agree with me, they won't make the choices to see if my way is better. They should. But thats just another point where they disagree with me. ;-)

I realized in Master of BIONICLE that the Toa Nuva and Toa Inika have already been transformed at least once, so it would probably be best to make a new team of Toa to keep variety. For me, any other hero group was not an option.

Well, yes. At this point they have to retain the moniker Toa. They have narrowly defined what a Toa is and they are stuck with that. And they are stuck with the one transformation and out route that they have used 3 times now. In terms of the contest and where we are, your responses make the most sense and your win was well deserved.

And it's not the Ewoks, it's the lightning from the Emperor's hands! It's just too cool! :-D

Yeah that was awesome

-Tohst

[Clonie]

And swinging back around to the original note of "Technology", I got to watch as it went from Tribal>Unique advanced>Plain gimmicky/stupid. Now we have islands making thousands of war machines, we have chainguns, we have flaming ball-launchers; the technology - which I had valued as greatly as I value the tribal feel of 01-03 - went all to hell. The story, the sets, the technology - its all about shooting the enemy. Sure, the 07 animation is nice, but it's just a bunch of characters shooting at each other; the Barraki trailer had more depth then that.

Ugh. I have a hard time getting my point across; Jinzo probably did a better job. I just wanted to make clear that its not that I am anti-technology in the Bionicle universe, its that technology done as poorly as "LULZ, LASER-STONE GUNS an' SIX SHOT ROCKET LAUNCHERS" is seriously out of place in a universe that had established itself as original and unique for 5 years.

And guess what? Next year we get... ZAMOR CORDAKS!

Bleh. At least we get masks that dont suck.

The funny thing is, 2001 ended with Toa blowing up Makuta, and 2007 ended purely on an emotional level.

I must ask -- how often are cordak blasters used in the story? About five or six times in Prisoners, as V-K pointed out. I believe a total of one (1) rocket was fired during the 2007 comics. Apart from the whole cord sequence, that is. But my point is they didn't go full-on with the blasters unless it was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, which it was with the cord.

[Turaga of Force]

2001 and 2002 are by far the best. Toa Mata: the gears are awesome. Not only for play, but they look awesome too. I really want the gears back. And the McToran, true, are bad for MOCists, however they were promos... they dont have to be good for MOCists. And like your financial point with the mask packs, it takes more money (hiring designers etc) to make the Rahi more diverse, and its cool to have two. Say two brothers get a set cause they cant afford it on their own, they dont have as much of a fight over who gets what. And the mask packs were the best part. Collecting is really fun, and even if you don't get them all its still fun to collect. Mask packs, at least in 2001 were good money for LEGO. Otherwise why did they in 02 and 03? And the Kanohi Nuva had bigger molds so they weren't cheaper. And 2001 masks sold well cause they were center in story. And the colored tools really added to it. If you want a right color blade, you can make Tahu's or Kopaka's or Lewa's work, and Gali's and Onua's claws/hooks work if you want something shorter. I do, however, agree on the point of Piraka bodies. Axonn and Brutaka are some of the best sets ever. (I don't have Brutaka yet though) And come on, the story team is creative, they can come up with stuff. And I am not saying they should have necessarily stayed on Mata Nui, diversity is good, but 01-02 was still by far the best. And the new personalities are to counter-balance the 01 personalities for diversity. I don't think they are dull, but neither are the 01 characters. I agree with you on media though, its nice to have books, more games, etc. But LEGO had to first get the francise going. But ya the Maori stuff was bad on LEGO's part. 2001 and 2002 are by far the best, however I agree with all the issues you adressed in the media section. :) And I am not trying to flame you or putting down you/your opponions, just giving my thoughts :)

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

... the Cordaks are still six-shot machine guns, nomatter how you dress it up, clonie T_T

Anyway; at the same time, the 2001 battle with Makuta was, in its own way, very unique. No Makuta clash since then has rivaled it; I know that Greg wouldnt have had him appear as a Matoran, because, apparently, that wasnt scary enough.

2001 and 2004 still have my all-time favorite endings.

I jus' feel that Greg should read a little more (for example) Greek mythology as opposed to, oh, marvel superheroes, which he appearently eats with every meal of the day :P

[Clonie]

... the Cordaks are still six-shot machine guns, nomatter how you dress it up, clonie T_T

I'm aware, my point is they don't factor in the story much to worry about, and they are easily removable on the sets. It's not like they're glued on. Unless you glued them on so as to complain about how they get in the way. :-P

Anyway; at the same time, the 2001 battle with Makuta was, in its own way, very unique. No Makuta clash since then has rivaled it; I know that Greg wouldnt have had him appear as a Matoran, because, apparently, that wasnt scary enough.

2001 and 2004 still have my all-time favorite endings.

I jus' feel that Greg should read a little more (for example) Greek mythology as opposed to, oh, marvel superheroes, which he appearently eats with every meal of the day :P

Here's an idea -- why don't you just PM him about it? You're both BZPower members. You said yourself you wouldn't say anything about someone behind their back that you wouldn't say face-to-face, or screen-to-screen as the case may be.

Not everyone likes mythologies. You act like it's universally accepted as the best method of storytelling. Not that I would prefer superhero storylines (not that Bionicle gives me too much of a superhero feel...), but you have to think that maybe not everyone likes what you do.

(By the way, is "jus'" an abbreviation if you use an apostrophe, since it has the same amount of characters? :-P )

Edited November 14, 2007 by Clonie

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

As you well know, that kind o' pirate speak is jus' th' way I type.

Und hyu should jost count hysef lucky dot hy dunt tolk like dis hall de time!

Edit: I see your "Mythology" statement and... woah.

I guess that explains why the works of J.R.R. Tolkien have such a small fanbase, and why nobody plays God of War, and that everyone from Homer to Socrates was jus' tomfoolin' around since not everybody would like what they wrote!

Face it. 2001, Bionicle was a mythology. in 2006, Bionicle met Marvel superheros.

Anyway, back on topic...

Edited November 14, 2007 by Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

2006 met super heroes? The only ones I recall are... hmmm... lets see, Axonn? Wow, there's so many, I'm going to friggin' puke! :-|

-ZotS

[Clonie]

As you well know, that kind o' pirate speak is jus' th' way I type.

Und hyu should jost count hysef lucky dot hy dunt tolk like dis hall de time!

Edit: I see your "Mythology" statement and... woah.

I guess that explains why the works of J.R.R. Tolkien have such a small fanbase, and why nobody plays God of War, and that everyone from Homer to Socrates was jus' tomfoolin' around since not everybody would like what they wrote!

Face it. 2001, Bionicle was a mythology. in 2006, Bionicle met Marvel superheros.

Anyway, back on topic...

Why are you still on about 2006? It's 2007 now, and it isn't the same thing.

If I ask you to read the 2007 books, you'll say "God no, they suck!"

If I ask you which books of Greg's you've read, you'll say the 2004 one, and that you enjoyed them.

If I ask you how you know the 2007 books suck, you'll say because every one of his books you've read sucks.

And that makes sense.

On to 2001 being a mythology. Not necessarily. MNOG was a mythology. MNOG was never approved by the story team. So that wasn't what Bionicle "was," not exactly anyway. 2001 was essentially the comics and the one book. I don't find the books very differently portrayed since that one. So it hasn't changed much to me.

Books are what matter in the end. I'm not that fond of the 2005/2006 books, although the first and last of 2006 were pretty good, but 2007 is a big improvement.

(And I didn't say I don't like mythologies, nor did I say that 2007 wasn't mythological as opposed to marvel-comical.)

I don't make any sense. XD

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

@Zaktan: You're missing the point. Greg has likened just about everything he's written to some Marvel superhero or other. Its how he sees the Toa, and he sees the Bionicle villians as your generic "Popup" badguy; ie, they're "super powerful", go "Arr, you've foiled me again!" and appear one after another. He's likened how one Superhero comic - I think it was the Green Lantern? - went from a small group of heroes to an intergalactic civilization of heros defeating bad guys and the lot. I simply think the story would be a lot more interesting to a lot more people - including those who are ALREADY INTERESTED IN IT - if he took more inspiration from historical mythology then what Captain America was doing in 1987.

@Clonie: Wrong. I have read Gregs books, and some of them - all of the 2004 ones, in particular I quite liked. Others... not so much. And I *really* do not like where he's taken the 2001 characters (Jaller and co); Nuparu and Kongu in particular irk me. 2007 did end on an emotional and interesting note; however, I still did not like it as much as, say, 2004. But, thats personal opinion. I find his work entertaining in its own way, but he is a comic book writer, and, IMHO, that field of expertise does not come in handy when writing a fantasy world.

And anyway... Yeah. In 2001, you had one book - which was basically a mashup of the comics and, except for a few parts, fit quite well with the MNOLG and the comics (For example, in the book, Pohatu/Kopaka's meeting got extended then from the comic, and the Toa receiving their gold masks was portrayed in yet a 3rd way; it was portrayed 2 different ways in MNOLG. That was apparently something nobody had quite figured out.)

So, yeah, you had the comics depicting certain pivotal battles with the Toa, and those first three were, IMHO, the best comics to date; the art style has not yet been matched, IMHO. The closest anyones come to it is Sayger, and his style is very... styalized :p Then, you had the book, which told the basic story of the Toa from start to finish.

But what of the rest of the Bionicle world? That was fleshed out in the MNOLG, and fit well with the books/comics. So, I dont care if it was approved by the story team or not; it was the MNOLG that portrayed the Bionicle universe in the beginning; it was the MNOLG that defined the world of Bionicle, it was the MNOLG that introduced us to the characters personalities - including the Toa - and it was the MNOLG that told the story of Bionicle from an interesting and interactive perspective.

Canon or not, approved or not, it was MNOLG that defined BIONICLE, and despite what you may think, the Templar team wasnt just smoking crack when they came up with the MNOLG; They were given a definite direction by the LEGO story team headed by Bob Thompson.

It was the mythological feel that got myself so involved in Bionicle that, even now, after years of dissapointment and disgruntlement, I'm still with it.

I can tell you right now that far more kids in 2001 played MNOLG then read the book - I didnt actually get the 2001 book until mid-2002 - so, while perhaps the books matter more NOW, they didnt back then. Of course, now, the online games consist of shooting stuff and collecting rockets. Whee.

2007 did have several aspects that I liked, such as the little "news report" on Bionicle.com that mentioned such things as the stone cord and the giant eel. These were things that one could use their imagination on and run with, since Lego layed down the original inspiration - Just like they always have. If the Toa's vehicle there had been, oh, a vehicle, not a rahi with control panels in its head and viewports for eyes, I would have approved of that too, as it fit in with the 2004 sense of technology. I am not "Oh, its new Bionicle, it sucks!" I have very definite reasons for my approval or disapproval of the sets/story. I simply have no use for a Nuparu Mahri that looks like some kind of hollow-jointed frog and cant shut up about blowing stuff up. On the flip side, his mask and sheild are quite nice, as is the masks of both Hahli Mahri and Jaller Mahri, as well as the weaponry of Matoro and Jaller. On the other hand, Matoro is a hunchback, Kongu is Heavy Weapons Guy, Hewkii has a manta stuck on his head, skinny legs, and spikes on his thighs, and Hahli acquired wings even though she's underwater.

So, yeah.

- The Admiral

Edited November 14, 2007 by Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn

[Tohst]

So, in the new Lego Magazine there is a multi-page foldout visual retrospective of Bionicle up to this point ending with a preview image of the phantoka toka.

Not only is it pretty awesome but there a lot of focus on 2001 and the original Toa. It seems someone at Lego has the same thoughts I do about if you're harkening back to the beginning for a big end you need to really accentuate the beginning and the epic feel of the whole story.

I feel ads like this are a great callout to long time fans and far from alienating new fans, get them interested in finding old books and sets.

-Tohst

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

But... the Nuva look absolutely nothing like their origional Nuva forms >_>

Kopaka doesnt even have his eye on the proper side!

But, I will wait until I see this ad myself.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn

[Tohst]

But... the Nuva look absolutely nothing like their origional Nuva forms >_>

Kopaka doesnt even have his eye on the proper side!

But, I will wait until I see this ad myself.

You're preaching to the choir here. I think the toys are decidedly fainthearted in thier callback approach. Others have taken the opinion that we should be happen they care about us at all because the core audience doesn't know or care about 2001 anyway. And thats not just people on this board but Greg F. saying things like that.

As such, this ad, distributed so far to a very small group of fans in a magazine that is just an advirtisement, either says that not every at Lego feels that way or just that they recognize there is a smaller group that this other epic-centered approach would work for.

-Tohst

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

An interestingly good point, Tohst.

[Clonie]

@Zaktan: You're missing the point. Greg has likened just about everything he's written to some Marvel superhero or other. Its how he sees the Toa, and he sees the Bionicle villians as your generic "Popup" badguy; ie, they're "super powerful", go "Arr, you've foiled me again!" and appear one after another. He's likened how one Superhero comic - I think it was the Green Lantern? - went from a small group of heroes to an intergalactic civilization of heros defeating bad guys and the lot. I simply think the story would be a lot more interesting to a lot more people - including those who are ALREADY INTERESTED IN IT - if he took more inspiration from historical mythology then what Captain America was doing in 1987.

I have noticed his analogies quite a bit, but so far I haven't seen it bleed over into 2007, thankfully. But this is a good point.

But purely statistically speaking, Bionicle is increasing in popularity, so yeah.

@Clonie: Wrong. I have read Gregs books, and some of them - all of the 2004 ones, in particular I quite liked. Others... not so much. And I *really* do not like where he's taken the 2001 characters (Jaller and co); Nuparu and Kongu in particular irk me. 2007 did end on an emotional and interesting note; however, I still did not like it as much as, say, 2004. But, thats personal opinion. I find his work entertaining in its own way, but he is a comic book writer, and, IMHO, that field of expertise does not come in handy when writing a fantasy world.

A few of the 2006 Toa can get annoying sometimes, but it's pretty well done in 2007, which is my main point. As for the comic book thing, I think a lot of the elements in City of the Lost are unique and interesting, and not something I'd see in a comic book, not that I ever read them, lol.

And anyway... Yeah. In 2001, you had one book - which was basically a mashup of the comics and, except for a few parts, fit quite well with the MNOLG and the comics (For example, in the book, Pohatu/Kopaka's meeting got extended then from the comic, and the Toa receiving their gold masks was portrayed in yet a 3rd way; it was portrayed 2 different ways in MNOLG. That was apparently something nobody had quite figured out.)

The book version is the official answer, as it was the only one of those three approved by the story. ;-)

So, yeah, you had the comics depicting certain pivotal battles with the Toa, and those first three were, IMHO, the best comics to date; the art style has not yet been matched, IMHO. The closest anyones come to it is Sayger, and his style is very... styalized :p Then, you had the book, which told the basic story of the Toa from start to finish.

Ah yes, Sayger's art.

Meh. Even I could do better. XD

I only read the comics for story info, really.

But what of the rest of the Bionicle world? That was fleshed out in the MNOLG, and fit well with the books/comics. So, I dont care if it was approved by the story team or not; it was the MNOLG that portrayed the Bionicle universe in the beginning; it was the MNOLG that defined the world of Bionicle, it was the MNOLG that introduced us to the characters personalities - including the Toa - and it was the MNOLG that told the story of Bionicle from an interesting and interactive perspective.

Canon or not, approved or not, it was MNOLG that defined BIONICLE, and despite what you may think, the Templar team wasnt just smoking crack when they came up with the MNOLG; They were given a definite direction by the LEGO story team headed by Bob Thompson.

Fair points, though I never said I didn't like 2001...

It was the mythological feel that got myself so involved in Bionicle that, even now, after years of dissapointment and disgruntlement, I'm still with it.

I can tell you right now that far more kids in 2001 played MNOLG then read the book - I didnt actually get the 2001 book until mid-2002 - so, while perhaps the books matter more NOW, they didnt back then. Of course, now, the online games consist of shooting stuff and collecting rockets. Whee.

Heh, yeah. Although there is the end animation of Voya Nui sinking which I quite liked. And you can't say you expected heavy weapons guy's game to not contain any shooting in the gameplay. :-P

2007 did have several aspects that I liked, such as the little "news report" on Bionicle.com that mentioned such things as the stone cord and the giant eel. These were things that one could use their imagination on and run with, since Lego layed down the original inspiration - Just like they always have.

Cool.

If the Toa's vehicle there had been, oh, a vehicle, not a rahi with control panels in its head and viewports for eyes, I would have approved of that too, as it fit in with the 2004 sense of technology.

You have to take into account that it's only portrayed as such in the movie and set. I really don't like either of those (I particularly hate any and all playsets in Bionicle, except the Barraki crab one I guess, but the price is a huge issue there...). It's a modified Rahi, modified by Axonn, who had a good portion of 700 years to perfect it. Not that it's the best concept, but I don't see who could provide the Toa with a completely mechanical sub...

I am not "Oh, its new Bionicle, it sucks!" I have very definite reasons for my approval or disapproval of the sets/story. I simply have no use for a Nuparu Mahri that looks like some kind of hollow-jointed frog and cant shut up about blowing stuff up.

Hey, he only said it once. :-P

On the flip side, his mask and sheild are quite nice, as is the masks of both Hahli Mahri and Jaller Mahri, as well as the weaponry of Matoro and Jaller. On the other hand, Matoro is a hunchback, Kongu is Heavy Weapons Guy, Hewkii has a manta stuck on his head, skinny legs, and spikes on his thighs, and Hahli acquired wings even though she's underwater.

So, yeah.

- The Admiral

Fins. She can't fly. :P

Edited November 15, 2007 by Clonie

[Visorak-kal]

@Zaktan: You're missing the point. Greg has likened just about everything he's written to some Marvel superhero or other. Its how he sees the Toa, and he sees the Bionicle villians as your generic "Popup" badguy; ie, they're "super powerful", go "Arr, you've foiled me again!" and appear one after another. He's likened how one Superhero comic - I think it was the Green Lantern? - went from a small group of heroes to an intergalactic civilization of heros defeating bad guys and the lot. I simply think the story would be a lot more interesting to a lot more people - including those who are ALREADY INTERESTED IN IT - if he took more inspiration from historical mythology then what Captain America was doing in 1987.

I don't really mind his analogies. The man likes comic books and superheroes and uses them as analogies. I have read his recent books, and I don't really get a comic or superhero feel, to tell the truth. I'm not really a comic fan myself, in fact the only comics I read are the BIONICLE comics and that is cause I get the mfor free. I see Greg's books neither as comic, nor as mythology; I see it sort of like epic.

And there was a quote a while back saying how Greg viewed the Toa as "police." That quote was taken out of context. The question was to compare the Order of Mata Nui to the Toa. He said that the Toa were like the police and the Order of Mata Nui was like the CIA. Greg views Toa as open heroes; I know I don't see them as super in any way. Superheroes never lose or die, and when they do, it is cliche. I just get a different vibe from the Toa.

So, in the new Lego Magazine there is a multi-page foldout visual retrospective of Bionicle up to this point ending with a preview image of the phantoka toka.

Not only is it pretty awesome but there a lot of focus on 2001 and the original Toa. It seems someone at Lego has the same thoughts I do about if you're harkening back to the beginning for a big end you need to really accentuate the beginning and the epic feel of the whole story.

I feel ads like this are a great callout to long time fans and far from alienating new fans, get them interested in finding old books and sets.

-Tohst

Very well put, Tohst. To add to what you said, at the end of the new comic, it says, "Coming in 2008: the original Toa return!" So LEGO has decided to play sides to both new and old fans. I mean, think about how this will affect new fans. If I were a new fan, I would be excited to think that these are the original Toa, Toa that I never got a chance to buy. It will contribute to that epic feel that you mentioned. Not necessarily mythological as it used to appear, but epic.

You're preaching to the choir here. I think the toys are decidedly fainthearted in thier callback approach. Others have taken the opinion that we should be happen they care about us at all because the core audience doesn't know or care about 2001 anyway. And thats not just people on this board but Greg F. saying things like that.

As such, this ad, distributed so far to a very small group of fans in a magazine that is just an advirtisement, either says that not every at Lego feels that way or just that they recognize there is a smaller group that this other epic-centered approach would work for.

I'm one of those that have taken the opinon you mentioned, Tohst. I feel glad simply that LEGO decided to bring back the Nuva as characters. Remember that these Toa are so old that they don't necessarily have to be brought back. We could have gone on for years with newer Toa, and then at the very end, after near 10 years, they could have abandoned the fact that the Nuva are supposed to awaken Mata Nui and have some other Toa team do it.

Also, while I think the new Nuva are not as close to the Nuva as would be ideal, I do find that they hearken back to them in minute ways that could definitely not interfere with the target audience. (I'm not saying that making them very similar would interfere with sales, but I am not fully acquainted with what LEGO"s inner marketing shows. Better safe than sorry.) I mean, Kopaka and Lewa have almost the same color schemes as their older selves (I think Kopaka's IS the same). Lewa has a sword that I think is very reminiscent of his two Katana swords. Kopaka does have the eye-thing, and I think it is just an error that it is on the wrong side. I don't think it was done intentionally; I think it was nice that the designers did the eye-thing, as they did not do it for Matoro Inika or Mahri and could have skipped it entirely.

I agree with you that LEGO does care about their older fans; this I've always felt when reading the books and how Greg helps older characters "return" whenever he can. I just think that, although they care about their older fanbase, LEGO knows they have to focus on the newer fanbase or else they will not make enough money to let BIONICLE survive. I feel that I must accept the good with the bad, or else lose both entirely.

I hope that makes sense, but I must say that you made a very good point there, Tohst. :-)

Clonie:

A few of the 2006 Toa can get annoying sometimes, but it's pretty well done in 2007, which is my main point. As for the comic book thing, I think a lot of the elements in City of the Lost are unique and interesting, and not something I'd see in a comic book, not that I ever read them, lol.

I didn't really get annoyed by them, but I do think their characters have improved in 2007. I agree with the City of the Lost beacause I am not a comic book fan and City of the Lost is very epic IMO.

As for Sayger, I am so-so on his art. As I scan through comics, I notice that the main panels have really nice art, but the smaller panels are not so good. Sayger does a great job on close-ups and landscapes, but not as good a job on figures viewed from a distance.

VK