Retired sets

[dr_spock]

WV Toy Shop came back from afterlife. Maybe it is a sign of another revivings?

They could be testing the waters.

[fred67]

The thing is they couldn't have picked a dumber set to "test the waters."

Average sales for a new Cafe Corner is over $1300 on bricklink, Toy Shop is just over $200.

Compared to MSRP, the Toy Shop is selling for about 3.5 times it's original price.

Compared to MSRP, Cafe Corner is selling for well over 9 times it's original price.

Which one is obviously in more demand? Which one would be better to "test the waters" with?

And I say this as someone who has a CC and wouldn't buy a new one, not someone desperately hoping for a re-release.

[dr_spock]

Perhaps they researched that an $80 set is easier to swallow for the growing middle class in emerging market regions like China and Asia Pacific. There is a growing interest in the commercial Christmas in the big cities.

[Thetford]

Bricklink prices only reveal how much AFOLs, and AFOLs alone, are willing to pay for a set. The prices and methods of payments are beyond that of your average KFOL and most TFOLs, and no parent in their right mind (who is not themselves an AFOL) will be willing to pay above retail price for a set they can easily substitute for one available.

[fred67]

It's true that it may be a harder pill to swallow for a more expensive set - otherwise I could have just said the UCS Millennium Falcon, which is also going for 10x the MSRP... but few people are going to pay $5000 for a set.

The point is there are a lot of sets that people would like to see re-released, I've never heard ANYBODY say they wanted a re-release of the Toy Shop; up until yesterday, nobody mentioned anything about rereleasing any WV sets at all.

Do you take the LEGO surveys? I do. I've never been asked which set I'd like re-released. Do you honestly think if TLG asked in the "under $100" category what we'd like rereleased, that the WV Toy Shop would win?

That's my point - I know I've been arguing about it quite a bit, but it's ultimately only a minor annoyance to me - but it's baffling to me, and I do think TLG was lazy about it, and I do think it's a mistake. At the same time, I don't run a multi-billion dollar company. But also, at the same time, TLG is hardly infallible.

Edited August 20, 2015 by fred67

[CaptainToad]

It's true that it may be a harder pill to swallow for a more expensive set - otherwise I could have just said the UCS Millennium Falcon, which is also going for 10x the MSRP... but few people are going to pay $5000 for a set.

The point is there are a lot of sets that people would like to see re-released, I've never heard ANYBODY say they wanted a re-release of the Toy Shop; up until yesterday, nobody mentioned anything about rereleasing any WV sets at all.

Do you take the LEGO surveys? I do. I've never been asked which set I'd like re-released. Do you honestly think if TLG asked in the "under $100" category what we'd like rereleased, that the WV Toy Shop would win?

That's my point - I know I've been arguing about it quite a bit, but it's ultimately only a minor annoyance to me - but it's baffling to me, and I do think TLG was lazy about it, and I do think it's a mistake. At the same time, I don't run a multi-billion dollar company. But also, at the same time, TLG is hardly infallible.

I think lego has either run out of ideas for the winter village - or maybe the designers needed more time to come up with something meaningful and so they decided to easily fill the gap with just minor enhancements of an older set.

[dr_spock]

I answer the AFOL and LEGO store shopping surveys too. I don't recall seeing re-release quesions either. We really don't know who else or what other methods they used to do their market studies. Maybe senior management just said do it last minute and everyone scrambled.

This could be a good question to ask the LEGO rep at the next AFOL convention Q&A session.

[Blondie-Wan]

Because it ended. It's not that it wasn't good, but if the sales were high enough then TLG wouldn't have "retired" the theme.

Of course they would have. It was never planned to run forever. It was a one-and-done theme from the outset.

[fred67]

Of course they would have. It was never planned to run forever. It was a one-and-done theme from the outset.

Apparently so was Winter Village, and they managed to keep it going (of course, you can argue it doesn't actually have the label "winter village," but being as how it's a re-release of a WV set, it would be a terrible counter argument).

If a series does good enough they will find a way to keep it going. I'm sure MF did well, it just obviously didn't do as well as what TLG thought they could do with other themes.

I also really don't want to start any personal trouble with you - I like and appreciate a lot the insight you have on LEGO, honestly, but you come off like you somehow represent the company and know all about it's internal workings. You don't. I don't believe you work for them. You're not even a "LEGO Ambassador." So I really don't like it when you phrase things so matter-of-factly about how and why TLG does what it does. For the most part, you're guessing just like everybody else. It might be a bit more of an educated guess, but it's still just a guess.

[Blondie-Wan]

The thing is they couldn't have picked a dumber set to "test the waters."

Average sales for a new Cafe Corner is over $1300 on bricklink, Toy Shop is just over $200.

Compared to MSRP, the Toy Shop is selling for about 3.5 times it's original price.

Compared to MSRP, Cafe Corner is selling for well over 9 times it's original price.

Which one is obviously in more demand? Which one would be better to "test the waters" with?

And I say this as someone who has a CC and wouldn't buy a new one, not someone desperately hoping for a re-release.

There's more to it than simply "which set is most in demand?". Cafe Corner, as a larger and more expensive set, would tie up more of their production capacity. And unlike with the Winter Toy Shop, which did get some slight additions and updates but for which the main build is structurally the same, Cafe Corner would require drastic redesigning, since certain window elements used for it were retired around the same time the set was, and the molds are no longer used, and the nearest equivalent parts have different proportions. The whole top portion would have to be redesigned to accommodate whatever windows they used in a "reissue" instead of the originals.

In other words, they would have to put more new design work into it and allocate more production resources toward it than they did with the new Winter Toy Shop, and they'd still get a building that looked less like the original Cafe Corner than the new Winter Toy Shop looks like the old one. The demand for the old CC may have risen more than that for the old WTS, but do you think the difference is enough to offset all those other considerations, plus the fact it would be a more expensive set anyway?

Apparently so was Winter Village, and they managed to keep it going (of course, you can argue it doesn't actually have the label "winter village," but being as how it's a re-release of a WV set, it would be a terrible counter argument).

If a series does good enough they will find a way to keep it going. I'm sure MF did well, it just obviously didn't do as well as what TLG thought they could do with other themes.

I also really don't want to start any personal trouble with you - I like and appreciate a lot the insight you have on LEGO, honestly, but you come off like you somehow represent the company and know all about it's internal workings. You don't. I don't believe you work for them. You're not even a "LEGO Ambassador." So I really don't like it when you phrase things so matter-of-factly about how and why TLG does what it does. For the most part, you're guessing just like everybody else. It might be a bit more of an educated guess, but it's still just a guess.

I don't want any personal trouble with you, either, and I regret that so many of our recent discussions have put us at odds with one another, but I trust we can disagree civilly, and enjoy one another's contributions to this passion we both share even when we're disagreeing.

FWIW, I've been pretty forthcoming about acknowledging it when I do turn out to be wrong. If you'll look over my recent post history, you'll note that I've mentioned multiple times that I've been wrong about various things, like TLG doing a theme around The Simpsons or a set around The Big Bang Theory; I do try to own up to it if I err. I'm just basing my statements on the best information available to me, like anyone else, but I've never pretended to work for TLG or represent them.

I certainly hope to get along well with you, and everyone else here - but especially you, actually, since I see you're in Georgia, which makes it at least slightly likelier I'll meet you at some LEGO event or a store or something than most others here. Are you in the Atlanta area, by chance? I know a few others here are, though I haven't yet met any EBers in person, something I hope to rectify eventually. I moved to Stone Mountain last year, and I know at least a couple others here do some of their LEGO shopping at the same stores I do...

[rodiziorobs]

I think the MF sets sold pretty well, actually, but that that the theme was retired because TLG entered negotiations to acquire the rights to Scooby-Doo. Whatever leftover designs they had that would have been a second wave got rolled over into the upcoming Monsters CMF. Just my two bits.

Edited August 21, 2015 by rodiziorobs

[fred67]

There's more to it than simply "which set is most in demand?".

Well... yes and no, as I acknowledged in a later post.

I don't want any personal trouble with you, either, and I regret that so many of our recent discussions have put us at odds with one another, but I trust we can disagree civilly, and enjoy one another's contributions to this passion we both share even when we're disagreeing.

Well, I know we're all guilty of supposing we know something about what's going on when TLG makes some decision. I usually look at it from the perspective of what makes the most business sense, and I don't go into a lot of details about production capacities and so forth because I don't think it's all that hard, for most pieces, to make a new production run - swap out molds, make some number of pieces, and modify with what they have on hand, and move on. It's not like they have to make a new mold every time they do a run.

And I do really want to get along with you, otherwise I'd just be ignoring you and not bringing it up at all - you've had a lot of great insight over the years, but sometimes you state things, down to little details of how and why, as if you were standing there in the room when the decision was made. The fact of the matter is, like all of us, we're all just guessing about the hows and whys.

When it comes down to it, the hows and whys don't matter - TLG made a decision that, on the surface, seems like a bad one when it comes to fans of LEGO. It's not the end of the world, I'm not as upset about it as I sound, I just think it was a terrible decision. Discussing it here doesn't change the fact that the decision was made, but I like to think that if anyone at TLG is paying attention at all, if they're going re-release something, perhaps it would be better to direct their resources as what has the most potential to sell... in other words, give the people what they want.

Even given a "sub-$100" restriction, even given any restriction (like parts, as you point out - some parts may be hard to come by, so it's accepted they may have to alter the set), they do enough surveys that they could easily have just asked what people wanted. Again, not the end of the world, just disappointing to a lot of people. We're not at wits-end, we're not suicidal, we shrug and move on - but if TLG learns anything from this, it should be that they should ask fans what they want. They really are not that great at forecasting demand... I can point out many instances. Why take chances when they can just ask?

So I reiterate my suggestion earlier in this thread that, maybe once a year, TLG can do a survey - limit it to what they know they can produce, if need be, and offer up a few of the more popular retired sets, and let the people decide.

I think, ultimately, to sum it up for me, it was like "Why did they pick THAT set re-release?" And again, it's not from a selfish standpoint - they could have picked any number of sets I already had and it still would have made more sense to me. Offer up a new Cafe Corner and I wouldn't buy it because I already have it - but I'd think it was cool that fans could get something they missed.

[parsom]

Santa's Workshop is back at S@H!

[Vectormatic]

Santa's Workshop is back at S@H!

Lol, just ordered one last month for the GF off of BL, paid less then MSRP for a sealed box, so im happy anyway