41 replies to this topic

[SkaForHire]

You know, I don't really agree with your speeds... they don't seem  to make sense in relative size... (I got to thinking this when I looked at the charlie thread and you said charlie couldn't out run dame...) The medium ships with full sails (like the charlie) should move faster then large men of war (like Dame)

2 reasons off the top of my head: weight in armament. The Dame is caryinng more guns than the charlie may weigh!!!! lol (sarcastic) The overall weight of Dame should hinder it to being slower than charlie.  plus... the mass part of your equation doesn't work out. First, the Dame would have a much deeper draft than the Charlie, but this cannot be represented because the floor or table is the waterline. this draft would slow it down considerably.

I think unfortunately an equation that uses mass or size of hull to calculate speed for lego ships can never be quite accurate. Though I am glad you tried, maybe i am wrong... but can you post some of the sizes and speeds of the real ships that you used so we can see?

phred, on Apr 26 2007, 10:52 PM, said:

Well i got a formula that i'm going to use for figuring how fast a Lego Sailing ship is.
Instead of using a linear formula I'm using an inverse tangent function where a ship has to be very very efficiently built to have a top speed of 20 knots or more.

Here's the formula:
(atan[(L/B)*((SA)/(M))*0.3024562649])*16=(speed)
atan is the inverse tangent in radians (atan is what needs to be typed to work in Excel).
L is the length of the ship in length (not including the bowsprit).
B is the beam or width of the lego ship (not including fancy details on the sides).
(doesn't matter what unit is used to measure length and beam, but they must be measured in the same units like studs, cm, in, etc.)
SA is the sail area of the ship in cm squared.
M is the mass of the lego ship in grams.
(any questions pm me or post on here  :-) )

Here are the speeds (in knots) of the official released sets done so far:
(if not in bold, then i don't have exact numbers yet)
Row Boat w/ sail:    18.2 knots
Row Boat w/ 2 sails:    20.2 knots
Imper. Trad. Cutter:    14.9 knots
Emporer's Ship:     6.5 knots
Crossbone Clipper:    6.5 knots
Imperial Flagship:    16.2 knots
Armada Flagship:     11.5 knots
Carribean Clipper:   11.1 knots
Viking Long Boat:    16.6 knots
Black Seas Barracuda:  12.5 knots

Here are the speeds of my MOCs:
Chinese Junk:    14.6 knots
HMS Charlie:     12.6 knots
Xebec:      20.7 knots
Dame du Loupe:   17.0 knots

Will be editing more finalized details later.

P

[Phred]

SkaForHire, on May 5 2007, 10:03 PM, said:

You know, I don't really agree with your speeds... they don't seem  to make sense in relative size... (I got to thinking this when I looked at the charlie thread and you said charlie couldn't out run dame...) The medium ships with full sails (like the charlie) should move faster then large men of war (like Dame)

2 reasons off the top of my head: weight in armament. The Dame is caryinng more guns than the charlie may weigh!!!! lol (sarcastic) The overall weight of Dame should hinder it to being slower than charlie.  plus... the mass part of your equation doesn't work out. First, the Dame would have a much deeper draft than the Charlie, but this cannot be represented because the floor or table is the waterline. this draft would slow it down considerably.

I think unfortunately an equation that uses mass or size of hull to calculate speed for lego ships can never be quite accurate. Though I am glad you tried, maybe i am wrong... but can you post some of the sizes and speeds of the real ships that you used so we can see?

First off these are the speeds without anything on the ships. :-D We're working on that right now.  the DDW will definitely go a lot slower when her 70 cannons and carronades are taken into consideration.

I know about the draft thing and comparison to actual ships.  I actually had to slow the lego versions proportionally down cause they were all way too fast compared to actual ships on a 1 to 45 scale. Like the Xebec going 36 knots 8-° (way too fast) while the fastest sailing ship could only go 22 knots fully loaded.
My brother and I will start construction on the HMS Victory and the USS Constitution respectively, so when they're built, we'll be able to compare exact lego replicas to actual ships and get really exact numbers.

As for speed comparisons of different ships, it was very possible for smaller brigs to go slower than frigates.
The HMS Sophie in a good wind could go more than 8-9 knots in the book Master and Commander while the HMS Surprise could go 15 knots and the USS Constitution could go 13 knots.

P

[SkaForHire]

phred, on May 7 2007, 12:50 PM, said:

First off these are the speeds without anything on the ships. :-D We're working on that right now.  the DDW will definitely go a lot slower when her 70 cannons and carronades are taken into consideration.

I know about the draft thing and comparison to actual ships.  I actually had to slow the lego versions proportionally down cause they were all way too fast compared to actual ships on a 1 to 45 scale. Like the Xebec going 36 knots 8-° (way too fast) while the fastest sailing ship could only go 22 knots fully loaded.
My brother and I will start construction on the HMS Victory and the USS Constitution respectively, so when they're built, we'll be able to compare exact lego replicas to actual ships and get really exact numbers.

As for speed comparisons of different ships, it was very possible for smaller brigs to go slower than frigates.
The HMS Sophie in a good wind could go more than 8-9 knots in the book Master and Commander while the HMS Surprise could go 15 knots and the USS Constitution could go 13 knots.

P

Judging by the surprise in M&C the movie vrs a brig, i would believe that, the surprise was built for speed not armament... and was lightened significantly when the british took it, they replaced it with cannonades for that reason. It became a cruiser, hence built for speed. I can't find a speed for her not in the book though. 15 knots seems high to me.  But comparing the Dame and Charlie, I don't know if the Dame has enough sail to be comparable to the surprise, then again the charlie might not have enough sail either....   oh well...

[Admiral Blockbeard]

Have we had any further developments on games... i think we would actually be able to create a game that exists online... is anybody else interested in making this happen? It could be part of the pirates forum.

[Hairy Ruben]

SkaForHire, on May 8 2007, 01:32 AM, said:

Judging by the surprise in M&C the movie vrs a brig, i would believe that, the surprise was built for speed not armament... and was lightened significantly when the british took it, they replaced it with cannonades for that reason. It became a cruiser, hence built for speed. I can't find a speed for her not in the book though. 15 knots seems high to me.  But comparing the Dame and Charlie, I don't know if the Dame has enough sail to be comparable to the surprise, then again the charlie might not have enough sail either....   oh well...

I thought the Surprise was such a light frigate because she was one of the older models. Constrructed in the days before the Americans, and later the French, Spanish and British increased frigate size and armament. Though I could be mistaken.

If it wouldn't complicate you game too much and I don't see a reason why it would, you might add islands, sandbeches and shallows and ports to your game. Perhaps even places with sharks and reefs and all sorts of other potentially agressive-though-not-as-much-as-one-would-think marine life. *pirate*

The potential for ships to run aground or rearm and repair seems needed if you're fighting fleet to fleet I feel :-P

[Phred]

Cpt. Pegleg Blockbeard, on Apr 2 2008, 08:51 PM, said:

Have we had any further developments on games... i think we would actually be able to create a game that exists online... is anybody else interested in making this happen? It could be part of the pirates forum.

My brother and i have been working on some rules (slowly)
We're still stuck on the simple speed problem.
My original calculations don't seem consistent and are usually too fast.

We're going to tackle it once and for all when my brother and i finish our two MOCs of a U.S. frigate and some other ship that my brother is going to make.
We'll compare the lego models to the actual ships and go from there.

Hairy Ruben, on Apr 3 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

I thought the Surprise was such a light frigate because she was one of the older models. Constrructed in the days before the Americans, and later the French, Spanish and British increased frigate size and armament. Though I could be mistaken.

The weight of the Surprise came from the current remake of the HMS Rose.
I haven't found any tonnage for the original HMS Surprise, therefore i've put that info to the side for now, until i know it's complete.

Hairy Ruben, on Apr 3 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

If it wouldn't complicate you game too much and I don't see a reason why it would, you might add islands, sandbeches and shallows and ports to your game. Perhaps even places with sharks and reefs and all sorts of other potentially aggressive-though-not-as-much-as-one-would-think marine life. *pirate*

The potential for ships to run aground or rearm and repair seems needed if you're fighting fleet to fleet I feel :-P

Yes, a super complicated game wouldn't be too bad if Excel was doing all the calculations and kept track of the battle information during a fight..  X-D

Though right now, we're focused on ships in the open seas.
Once that's done, we'll worry about reefs and islands and such.
I love the idea of having your crew eaten by sharks once their in the water. *skull*

BTW:
Lately, we've come up with the idea of having certain benefits and costs to having your ships a specific nationality.
British marines are better than anyone elses.
Dutch, then French ships are built the best and have better maneuverability and more hit points.
There are more ideas i had; i just wanted to give examples.

P

[SlyOwl]

Have any of you ever tried taking two ships and ramming them into each other? X-D Great fun, but ever so destructive! :-D

[Admiral Blockbeard]

I must say i have not, but one fell from a TV it was displayed on due to vibrations...

And another was on the floor and my dog used it as a scratching post...

you can imagine the grief of putting them back together.

so is any one interested in an online game, i have holidays coming up and could work on some rules!

[Phred]

SlyOwl, on Apr 6 2008, 02:33 PM, said:

Have any of you ever tried taking two ships and ramming them into each other? X-D Great fun, but ever so destructive! :-D

I have not,
But once my Constitution is built,
i'd like to ram all my brother's pirate ship sets. :-D

P

[The Daphne Blue Strat]

I wrote up a piratical LEGO wargame several years ago.  It's not terribly great, but if anybody would like to peruse it and fish out anything that might be useful, let me know and I'll get it to you.

[Phred]

The Daphne Blue Strat, on May 12 2008, 06:02 PM, said:

I wrote up a piratical LEGO wargame several years ago.  It's not terribly great, but if anybody would like to peruse it and fish out anything that might be useful, let me know and I'll get it to you.

Thank you Daphne!

There are some funs ideas to consider for rule making.
Thanx!

Phred

[Phred]

Alright, last time i talked about this a lot of ppl seemed to be in disagreement with my reasoning.
So i've hit the books since then and came up with some information.

Ppl didn't like it when i said that the HMS Sophie (14 guns @ 8 knots) has a lower top speed than the HMS Victory (100 guns @ 9 knots).
After some reading, i've come up with this table.


First my assumptions (which can be fine tuned later): Frigates or smaller move at wind speeds lower than 3 knots, while ship-of-the-lines do not.
A Brig must bring in all sail when winds are more than 30 knots.
A frigate must bring in all sail when winds are more than 40 knots.
A ship-of-the-line must bring in all sail when winds are more than 50 knots.
In other words, a smaller ship can't handle faster winds compared to larger ships, (which i've read, but no exact values were given).

Once the max speed has been made, the high waves decrease ship speed.

The brig (HMS Sophie) was the fastest ship below 6 knot wind speeds. (or a smaller ship can move faster in light wind)

What do ya think?

[Commander Red Hat]

It sounds logic, sail technically you are correct.
I do find speeds of 13/15 knots pretty high for these ships, but that would ofcourse depend on the wind.
I've sailed 8 knots with 6bft wind, and that was pretty fast i tell ya!

[Phred]

Captain green hair, on Dec 12 2008, 03:33 PM, said:

It sounds logic, sail technically you are correct.
I do find speeds of 13/15 knots pretty high for these ships, but that would ofcourse depend on the wind.

They're the same top speeds i've found on Wikipedia and other locations.
The fastest sailing ship ever was "clocked" at 22 knots.
It was the clipper ship the Flying Cloud.

There also is a modern clipper ship that can go 17 knots.

No idea what the wind speed was when the ships hit those speeds.
Closest thing i could find are speed diagrams for small sailing yachts to find any type of wind speed to ship speed comparisons.

Captain green hair, on Dec 12 2008, 03:33 PM, said:

I've sailed 8 knots with 6bft wind, and that was pretty fast i tell ya!

what's a 6bft?

[Quarryman]

Phred, on Dec 13 2008, 08:28 PM, said:

what's a 6bft?

Number 6 on the Beaufort scale, I suppose.

[Phred]

Quarryman, on Dec 14 2008, 01:34 PM, said:

Number 6 on the Beaufort scale, I suppose.

Well that makes sense.
Thanx Quarryman.  
I never even heard of the Beaufort Scale before.

[Phred]

I've come up with an Excel Spreadsheet that calculates how fast a vessel is going in certain wind directions and speed.
I haven't figured out a consistent formula that calculates a ships max. speed.
That'll have to wait.

I'd be willing to email it to anyone interested to see what they think.
Recommended for piratey types that know something about sailing.
(only things i know about sailing is from reading)
Please PM me your email address; don't post it on here.

The spreadsheet so far takes into account a similar version of this graph i posted earlier:



and takes into account this speed diagram:



About the Spreadsheet
Only enter in values where there is a box around the cell(s).
Cells with gray backgrounds have calculations and/or will be hidden in the final version.
Also if you look, it seems that ships can sail in full canvas in winds at 65 knots.
I know this is not possible, and ships would have very minimal sails up, or be drifting in very rough seas.
I wanted to have vessels be able to have effective use of some sails in windier weather.

Edit:
Doh!
I've got the wind set up for the direction it's blowing instead of the direction it's coming from.
I'll have to fix that later.

Edit #2:
Fixed the wind thingy.