Radio Control Train Sets

[Locomotive Annie]

As a seriously latecomer to LEGO I missed out on so much of the earlier trainset tech and this morning I found myself wondering why the Radio Control system had such a short life before it was replaced by the PF system. I was looking at a 7898 Freight set on Bricklink yesterday and was sorely tempted to buy it as I particularly like the green loco in this set.

Radio control is used a good deal in 'G' scale and with 16mm scale trains and I've used it myself with simple conversions done on my own large scale locos when I was still working in this scale. Of course just lately I've been using the Banbao version of radio control which has led me to wonder why LEGO discontinued it.

[paul_delahaye]

One of the big limitations was the receiver and battery pack was built into a large 6 x 30 stud baseplate, which is fine if you want to make very standard engines, but it was limted.

http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=2016c01

The RF range was fairly poor from memory, and the motors were somewhat lacking in power when it came to pulling heavier or longer trains. The remote did produce a "train horn" noise if you like that sort of thing.

As the Remote ran on a single frequancy so to speak, it meant when running multiple RF trains, they all responded to one controller, it did not give the serious train fan the ability to safely control multiple trains. But the rolling stock and overall design of the green train was fine.

I think it was likely intended to compete against the Playmobile train? It may have just be a quick stopgap for Lego? The Adult fans were from memory working behind the scenes with Lego to design the current Power functions solution, bringing a toy for kids, but with components AFOL's could benefit from.

Paul

[AussieJimbo]

To clarify, the RC Trains use infra-red not radio signals; the RC is short for Remote Control.

They have 3 channels to choose from and the controller can be set to control channel 1, 2 or 3 or all channels at once. The horn is a cool.

The train base is a little cumbersome but the use of AA batteries added weight for traction and have higher capacity than AAAs. On the other hand the motors are less efficient as mentioned above.

My first Lego trains were RC and I still enjoy running them.

:classic:

Edited January 4, 2013 by AussieJimbo

[Locomotive Annie]

I've decided to build up the green Freight Loco from parts as it's mainly the loco I want anyway and I've already placed Bricklink orders for the essential pieces specific to this loco. Should be a fun project

Thanks for the background information on the rc sets guys it was very much appreciated.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Locomotive Annie

[peterab]

While the conventional wisdom is the motors are poor I've found they are not as bad as their reputation provided you change the rubber traction tyre for some more modern ones. I also like to add an extra motor. Given the above they become quite powerful locos. They are not as good as the newer PF train base, but quite workable even for AFOL length trains. Probably not worth paying extra for to get specially but if you happen to like the green cargo train like I did, not bad enough to replace. Also the 3 RC IR channels can be used in addition to the PF ones so it gives a little more flexibility on huge exhibition layouts :-)

Edited January 4, 2013 by peterab

[Locomotive Annie]

Thanks for your input Peter, - fortunately I do already have a new in the packet rc motor that I picked up at a reasonable price a while ago and I'll keep a quiet eye out for another one as two motors sounds to be the way to go.

I like this ore wagon from the 7898 set as well and I was thinking of building up several copies until I have a decent freight train's worth of them for use on my layout.

[peterab]

As AussieJimbo says the 6xAA base adds quite a bit of traction, and since the weight is quite low these bases tend to be quite stable at high speeds. I'm converting one of my MOCs over to use it just because it's reliable at shows and less fiddly than taking the engine apart to replace batteries.

[Locomotive Annie]

This loco looks similar to the older generation electric locos that worked here in New Zealand which is why I was attracted to it as soon as I first saw it. Ideally it shouldn't be green, but red, - only some of the necessary parts are expensive in red so green it will be.until I can save up my pocket money sufficiently to build a red one.

[DmChylde]

I'm converting one of my MOCs over to use it just because it's reliable at shows and less fiddly than taking the engine apart to replace batteries.

peterab: Thats one thing I like about these 2 train sets, the batteries change out in seconds, no taking half an engine or tender apart to swap out for fresh power

[cei]

I personally think Lego moved away from RC because it was a limited system - it wasn't as expandable as the current PF system (so we might have never gotten the geared Emerald Night) and it also limited what the designers could build, because of the massive AA battery box stuck in the middle of the train bases.

I find the two sets I have decent, especially the cargo train (the white passenger trains uses the pre-moulded noses, which are horrible) when hauling their original carriages, and am happy to keep them running alongside my PF trains. To be honest, I think Lego just came up with a better solution for motors and decided to switch before they got any more committed to RC.

[andythenorth]

The RC freight train is great. +1 to using 2 motors and replacing the wheels with the latest PF wheels (better traction O-ring). My kids love the green train (and the horn).

[Gorki247]

Would there be any benefit in replacing the baseplate with a standard one and adding a PF setup instead?

[Brickthus]

Would there be any benefit in replacing the baseplate with a standard one and adding a PF setup instead?

That would be my preference. The PF Train Motor 88002 is so much better than the RC Train Motor 8866. The 8866 one was geared too fast and had too little torque as a consequence. It might be OK for kids to run a light train too fast and fall off at the corners, but that doesn't meet the AFOL market. I did comparative torque testing of 10153, 8866 and 88002 and it confirmed that 88002 is a bit better than the old 9V motor 10153. I did get a few 8866 motors anyway, for testing and for a prospective multiple unit train, which would use at least two motors, run faster and with a much lighter load than a typical goods train. I wouldn't use them on a goods train.

The building versatility of PF is its advantage over RC. PF also allows 8 trains to RC's 3. More than 8 trains can be controlled with PF if you know how, with NXT control!

The V2 IR Receivers, upgraded for 9398 Crawler and now shipping as the default IR Receiver, boost the power available when running 2 PF Train Motors together, as serious AFOL goods locos do. The only limit then is the 800mA current trip from the PF LiPo battery.

Of all the heritage railway systems, RC is the first to forget! Its other major flaw was the white nose piece on the passenger train, which was voted the "second most useless piece ever" after the dinosaur body. Not only was it a single-use piece of POOP but it didn't fit properly either!

Mark

[Locomotive Annie]

Hey Mark thanks this is all really good to know and answers a lot of my questions. Btw I have absolutely no interest in the passenger train and would only accept one if it was being given to me for free!

I didn't realise that the 8866 RC motor was higher geared as I've never had one apart, but now I know the difference I can make sure I only use them on something like a single unit railcar or something of the sort.

[peterab]

Would there be any benefit in replacing the baseplate with a standard one and adding a PF setup instead?

While I don't disagree with Mark's views on the relative merits of the RC & PF motors, if you are going to run the standard green cargo train set, I wouldn't spend the money on upgrading the motors, battery and receiver. For a start you'd lose the convenience of easily changing the battery, and for the train as supplied in the set or similar the RC motor is fine. I'd still recommended newer traction tyres, and a second motor as an OK upgrade if you want to add a few extra freight wagons. If you want to build heavy AFOL style trains it's not a good choice, likewise if more prototypical slow running speeds are of importance to you.

[Locomotive Annie]

Well I went and did it Peter because I've just purchased a 7898 set on Bricklink. It's not in a box and it's not in sealed packets which kept the price down, but it is complete and has its instruction sheets. I will fit that second RC motor I have in the spares box because I think it's a good sensible move to give the loco some more haulage power.. I like the RC battery system and I would be reluctant to give up on something that's so easy to change out. It might be possible to use the RC baseplate and battery holder with the new PF system too, - though I do realise that the RC circuit board would have to be removed as it's not compatible with the PF system.

The other thing I'm wondering about is changing the gear ratios of the RC motor so it isn't so fast running. I shall have a wee experiment with what I have in the spares box and see what I come up with. If I can't do anything about the gear ratios loco No: 7898 will go on the passenger roster and haul the varnish instead of long trains of ore hoppers.

My grown up children were puzzled when they saw what I've been working on lately. 'But you hate diesels Mum,' were their comments in a nutshell until I pointed out that I was building nice electric locos with pantographs and not horrible nasty stinky diseasels. Here in New Zealand electric traction was famously used on the West coast of the South Island on the line to Greymouth because there was a very long 8.5km tunnel that was not really suitable for steam haulage on the heavy coal trains out of Greymouth. Electric locos tend not to suffocate their crews and it's these locos used for haulage through the Otira tunnel that are inspiring me to go electric. Unfortunately by the time I was finally able to visit Otira the English Electric Class Ea and Eo locos had long gone, but the overhead catenary wires for the old 1500v Dc system were still there.

Fortunately one of the Eo class of 1923 has been preserved (photo). And three Ea class (built 1968), later reclassified to Eo, are still in service hauling suburban trains out of Wellington. The remaining two members of the class are in storage pending preservation.

The similar English Electric Class Ec (built 1929) worked through the Lyttleton tunnel at Christchurch. Ec7 has been preserved in working order.

As you can see it's not going to be exactly difficult to make a LEGO 7898 loco look like either an Eo or an Ec class (Ea's have a different shaped cab front and don't have the terrific big headlight) so I can play trains to my heart's content, though I suppose this means that my layout will now need to have a tunnel.........

Before the purists start jumping about let me say that my original 7898 loco will remain unchanged and the actual MOC or MOD locos will be copies made using parts obtained via Bricklink and more than likely will have reworked motor blocks as well. I'm not a vandal you know and I do know how to keep my heritage LEGO separate from the loose stuff in the storage crates.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Locomotive Annie

[andythenorth]

Before the purists start jumping about

Purists need a sharp poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Lego is for building and rebuilding.

[Locomotive Annie]

Everyone knows that LEGO bricks that have been packed together as a set at the factory possess a mysterious aura of completeness that can be detected by a true initiate of the Secrets of the Brick.

Seriously though if I have a genuine old set I do like to keep it together and not mix its parts in with anything else.

[lightningtiger]

You can MOC with the RC chassis.......remember my 501....

Oh, so long ago.....I have to dig it out for Railshow 2013 I guess.

Though I did find under a light load no problem but load it a bit more....wheel slip, you name it showed why PF took over as the drive system for Lego Trains now.

[wondermonkey]

Poke in the eye with a stick... Ugh. Who woke up andythenorth??? I'm not strictly a purist, I love watching what people like Locomotive Annie come up with but come on its a kids toy/hobby. No need to run around poking at people with sticks.

[peterab]

Before the purists start jumping about let me say that my original 7898 loco will remain unchanged and the actual MOC or MOD locos will be copies made using parts obtained via Bricklink and more than likely will have reworked motor blocks as well. I'm not a vandal you know and I do know how to keep my heritage LEGO separate from the loose stuff in the storage crates.

Purists need a sharp poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Lego is for building and rebuilding.

I think your using the wrong term here. Purist make MOCs, they just don't use non LEGO parts. There are even shades of gray. Some will use modified flex cable, some will use BBB wheels. I see it as a balance between the added challenge of doing a pure build and the greater ease of getting a more prototypical result if you don't. It's all a personal choice, no right or wrong.

I think a better term for the people you are thinking of are collectors. Even then I can a least understand the impulse, though I think it lacks the creativity of MOC builders.

Everyone knows that LEGO bricks that have been packed together as a set at the factory possess a mysterious aura of completeness that can be detected by a true initiate of the Secrets of the Brick.

Seriously though if I have a genuine old set I do like to keep it together and not mix its parts in with anything else.

I'm appalled at the non-scientific babble here everyone knows it's the lingering remnants of the special Bilund air that we detect. Most can detect it in a newly opened set, but the more carefully you keep the set together, and the more sensitive you are, the longer you can smell it.

I also have a collection of most of the 70's era train and Legoland sets packed away separately to my MOCing bricks