16 replies to this topic

[trekman]

Despite purchasing some of the new studless sets of technic lego for my son, he still builds mine!  In the new studless sets, he will build the models which he has instructions for, but that will be it.  Then he will come back to all my stuff, with the mix of old and new pieces, and will build from his head, mainly with studded beams, supplemented by studless technic parts.  He is nine years old.
Are the lego company missing something here?  I believe that the jump from City or Creator to technic is too great for a child to able to build "freestyle", without instructions.
As I have experienced myself, the studless system requires more forward planning, which a 9 or ten yearold mind cannot prepare for.
His current studless lego technic present is waiting at the ready.  But I still reckon, that he will be back to the studded beams.

[Blakbird]

At a LEGO fan event open forum, I once asked a LEGO employee why they had made such a drastic change from studded to studless building, and whether or not we might ever see more of the old beams reappear (this was not long after 8421 came out and I was glad to see so many old beams in it).  His reply was that the old beams are gone for good and that the reason for the change is that the new studless parts integrate better with the rest of the LEGO system.  This answer made no sense to me at all since it seems obvious that studded beams integrate better with the rest of the system and, like you say, studless building is a completely different paradigm than the rest of LEGO building.

At any rate, like it or not, studless is here to stay and the old parts are not likely to come back.  I personally like studless parts when used correctly and they have many advantages.  However, I pine for the days when the two systems were mixed evenly and both were used for their strengths, so to speak.

[trekman]

Blakbird, on 12 December 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

His reply was that the old beams are gone for good and that the reason for the change is that the new studless parts integrate better with the rest of the LEGO system.

If that's the case, then I'd better stock up on the old studded technic beams!

[Blakbird]

trekman, on 12 December 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

If that's the case, then I'd better stock up on the old studded technic beams!

You and everyone else!  You will already find that even the common sizes and colors command a premium price on Bricklink.  The 16L beams are in particularly high demand.

[dandexter]

It's down right stupid to stop all production of studded beams, there are certain things that just can't be done or done as well with studless beams.  

Sometime in the next few years i'm planning to build some large cranes, building a large strong lattice boom out of studless parts would be much harder.

Edited by dandexter, 12 December 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Robert M]

I have to be honest here, I am 16 and still haven't got to grips with how to build a '' freestyle '' studless machine. I know the knack is 10 steps in advance, and start from center, but i find it impossible. Maybe it would be better for Lego to have a race of lego using both studded and studless that integrate with each other to make it less of a move between the two. I have many technic sets, which are all standard, and cannot simply take them apart and even consider making a decent something like I could with studded.

[VMLN8R]

trekman, on 12 December 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Despite purchasing some of the new studless sets of technic lego for my son, he still builds mine!  In the new studless sets, he will build the models which he has instructions for, but that will be it.  Then he will come back to all my stuff, with the mix of old and new pieces, and will build from his head, mainly with studded beams, supplemented by studless technic parts.  He is nine years old.
Are the lego company missing something here?  I believe that the jump from City or Creator to technic is too great for a child to able to build "freestyle", without instructions.
As I have experienced myself, the studless system requires more forward planning, which a 9 or ten yearold mind cannot prepare for.
His current studless lego technic present is waiting at the ready.  But I still reckon, that he will be back to the studded beams.

That's interesting, and I'd agree that the transition from studded to studless can be overwhelming. It just may take some time to become familiar with the techniques, to see how single parts can be used in a variety of ways, and also how they integrate with each other. Some resources you may find useful are this book on Technic building and instructions for fan-created models.

Blakbird, on 12 December 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

You and everyone else!  You will already find that even the common sizes and colors command a premium price on Bricklink.  The 16L beams are in particularly high demand.

That's also interesting. I would have thought otherwise, since they're still commonly used as structural parts on system sets.

[hrontos]

Is it possible, that 9 is not a target group TLG focuses on with technic?

My son is 8, he can build studless models using instructions without problems (even flagships), but is not creating his own studless models.
He builds studded ones.

But I think, that if studless was that simple that 9 year old could build with it easily, what would be the challenge for those 16+ builders?

May be TLG just found out, that many MOCers are 15+ and wanted a building system that is attractive and challenging mainly for that group.

[z3_2drive]

Well, I guess it's because I have a knack for geometry and visualizing things in my head, because all the technic I've ever had was studless, I think I started with the 8048 when I was 10/11. But I agree they shouldn't completely stop the making of studded beams, even though I don't use them-but maybe that's because I have so few! I remember building an 8466 though, and I personally dont like studded frames because of the even placing of holes, instead of odd which is easy in studless...

[Carrera124]

@Trekman, there's a simple solution: go and buy older (studded) Technic sets for your son
Bricklink is a good source for buying used sets.

Personally, I bought lots of sealed sets at Ebay during the last months. Especially, I am looking for sealed sets with crushed or "bad" boxes.
Usually, they are not good enough for MISB collectors, and they are too expensive for people who only want to have the parts.
Browse through Blakbird's Technicopedia, and you surely will find out what older sets you (and your son) might be interested in.

[1974]

Beams with studs are still being used in loads of new sets, SW in particular. allthough the colours are not the most appealing

They're only gone from Technics

[legomuppet9]

I must admit, all but one of my models have studded beams in them, mainly as they're so easy to make a strong light chassis out of! plus the fact my collection is quite small and consists of quite a few studded beams...

[mahjqa]

I'm going to disagree here; studless is actually easier. If you want to build things with technic functions, that is. The dimensions of studded bricks are wildly unsuitable for technic geometry; bricks that are actually ever so slightly higher than a single stud, for example. And you can't build brick on brick on brick, nope. You have to go brick-plate-plate-brick and so on.

The problem is that it's a wildly different system, and you have to learn that system from scratch. Just like you learned building with studs from scratch.

As for building x steps in advance... take a look at the building instructions of the 8824 hovercraft right here. All studded. A relatively small set. And yet this model would take ridiculous amounts of planning to get right.

[trekman]

Carrera124, on 12 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

@Trekman, there's a simple solution: go and buy older (studded) Technic sets for your son

Yep, He was given a 8868 set which never had the pnuematic tubing cut - says a lot!!  I also gave him a 8062 multi set.  But I guess he is spoiled with my range of pieces.

[Conchas]

At least I can say that it is acknowledged by TLG, that the transition from SYSTEM into Technic for young boys is not like a piece of cake.

Although how to they plan to address the issue, to make it easier, I've no clue.

[Carrera124]

mahjqa, on 12 December 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

I'm going to disagree here; studless is actually easier.

I don't think so. Maybe if you're an engineer, but the main problem is: for studless building, there are lots of different parts that have the same purpose.
For example, to simply connect two liftarms, sometimes part Nr. 2780 is needed. Sometimes part 43093 is required, and in other cases you need part 32062.
This drives me crazy.
It's true that studless models offer great features, that are designed very "smooth".

mahjqa, on 12 December 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

If you want to build things with technic functions, that is. The dimensions of studded bricks are wildly unsuitable for technic geometry; bricks that are actually ever so slightly higher than a single stud, for example. And you can't build brick on brick on brick, nope. You have to go brick-plate-plate-brick and so on.

The problem is that it's a wildly different system, and you have to learn that system from scratch. Just like you learned building with studs from scratch.

But you forgot an important issue: building with studded technic bricks, is very much closer to building with system bricks. Therefore, it is not important that the studded technic bricks slightly higher than a single stud, because this applies to all studded system bricks. The classic brick-plate-plate-brick scheme is very simple and easy to recognize.

Edited by Carrera124, 13 December 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Toastie]

Quote

At least I can say that it is acknowledged by TLG, that the transition from SYSTEM into Technic for young boys is not like a piece of cake.

Hi Conchas,

that is very good to know. I completely agree with some of the folks here that the transition is not only a piece of cake but rather demanding: Studs is what LEGO was from day 1. Studs facilitate the always "TLC officially appraised Building Across Multiple Themes" approach. At least when they talk about the greatness of LEGO.

I am not saying that studless is bad. In contrast I love it. But whenever I use studless stuff, it is heavily mixed-up with studded parts. Super-vehicles (cars, excavators, cranes, unimogs, ...) and studless work very, very well. Buildings, trains, (some) structures, ... do not. "Technic" may also be embedded in those though. I'd call those MOCs Technic MOCs. But this is where disagreement is around the corner ...  

Quote

Although how to they plan to address the issue, to make it easier, I've no clue.

Well, that one is very easy to solve: Continue to make studded technic pieces. As easy as that and you have the young folks (my girls do Technic as well) on board.

Best wishes,
Thorsten