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Official-Alternate Models


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#1 natesroom

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

I cant be the first to ask this and maybe i'm missing the right thread. Could we have an "Official Alternate Playsets - Drawn in LDD" with instructions? I would love to have a list of alternate models that they released in the 80's and 90's on the boxes and be able to find Instructions on how to build them. They must use the original parts and nothing extra.. i think this would add a new dimension to this forum and i for one would visit this section more often.

I know that when i first came out of the dark ages, my first desires and wishes were to collect the sets i played with. At the time i was not an MOC'er (nor really very good today either) and these would go a long way to satisfying creativity and even encourage ppl to look at the same parts in one set and see them outside their intended design. It may even spark their own creativity and encourage them to MOC.

Is this a dead topic and been done to death before?

#2 DLuders

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:24 AM

Rebrickable.com already has many set "alternates" in its database.  :classic:   I did a search for " -2 " sets, and got this 6-page list.

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#3 legolijntje

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:11 AM

If there are instructions for alternate models (which need to have official instructions!!), you are may just to post them in the normal LDD sets topic or
LDraw sets topic :classic:
There are already mnay alternates in that databases (although mostly of new sets). If you take a look at one of the indexes, you can somtimes see an A, B, C etc. behind a model's name, that are different alternates :wink:

#4 natesroom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

View PostDLuders, on 05 December 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

Rebrickable.com already has many set "alternates" in its database.  :classic:   I did a search for " -2 " sets, and got this 6-page list.

Posted Image

I think your missing the point , but if you actually search that link you sent me, there's very little in common to what i was asking for.

View Postlegolijntje, on 05 December 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

If there are instructions for alternate models (which need to have official instructions!!), you are may just to post them in the normal LDD sets topic or
LDraw sets topic :classic:
There are already mnay alternates in that databases (although mostly of new sets). If you take a look at one of the indexes, you can somtimes see an A, B, C etc. behind a model's name, that are different alternates :wink:

I think i did go through the LD Sets and looked through them. Maybe it has changed since the last time i was looking through the list but I dont remember them being the Alternates that were shown on the box. I will take the next hour or so to go through the list to see if i am incorrect.

#5 legolijntje

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:25 PM

Maybe you can give an example of the alternates you mean?

#6 natesroom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:38 PM

View Postlegolijntje, on 05 December 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Maybe you can give an example of the alternates you mean?

Well Whitefang did a review of this set

http://www.eurobrick...showtopic=32245

And he shows this image of the box:
http://www.brickshel...66Review/21.jpg
that shows "Alternate" models that deliver a different design. I think Eurobricks with all its members should tackle this challenge of building some of these for each set and have instructions or LXF files or whatever for them. I said in my first post for those who are not great MOC'er being able to build even these simple models really changes your perception of what the brick was originally intended. It will give that person the feeling of accomplishment if they build it. I want to say almost like they would be proud of what they built even though instructions were provided.

I really think this will just help and encourage them to grow their own skills. I really miss these designs on Boxes as opposed to flickfire images and "Action Scenes" that you can never really re-create

Edited by natesroom, 05 December 2012 - 01:38 PM.


#7 legolijntje

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

Ok.... You mean that kind of alternates.
Well, strictly they are not allowed in the LDD or LDraw topics, because there are no instructions available.

I'm not sure, but I think there were some discussions about accpeting this or not. Now they are not accepted, so there's not really a topic for this.

Btw; also a good example are the ideas in the instrcution booklets of "Designer Sets". The booklets include some instructions for some models, but also many ideas (shown with a lightbulb).

#8 PsyKater

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:44 PM

Ah, after your second post, I understood what you mean. It was not that clear, as nowadays alternate models come with official instructions. Their LDD/LDraw models are included in the LDD/LDraw thread.

You are asking to start an alternate building thread for "classic" sets, where these alternate models were printed on the boxes. They can not be included in the LDD/LDraw index, as there do not exist any official instructions. So, a seperate thread would make sense.

I think this is a good idea, if somebody has time and chance to moderate it. The difficulty is that it can't be indexed so good like the official sets as they are not official. They are more freebuilds of the LEGO Designers, shown on the box. Nevertheless I think, we should give it a try.
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#9 Calabar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:11 PM

View Postlegolijntje, on 05 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Well, strictly they are not allowed in the LDD or LDraw topics, because there are no instructions available.
I'm not sure, but I think there were some discussions about accpeting this or not. Now they are not accepted, so there's not really a topic for this.

In the Official Set in LDD topic these kind of alternatives are accepted as "extra".
That means a builder can provide that inside his post, but only the official version is indexed.
To say the true, this kind of extra is very rare.

Note that in old sets usually there are not instructions for these kind of alternative, but in more recent sets often you can find that.
In this case, the extra are accepted in the official set topics as alternative models. Here is a recent example.
"Official LEGO Sets made in LDD" topic: Read guidelines before posting!

#10 natesroom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 03:54 PM

View Postlegolijntje, on 05 December 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Ok.... You mean that kind of alternates.
Well, strictly they are not allowed in the LDD or LDraw topics, because there are no instructions available.

I'm not sure, but I think there were some discussions about accpeting this or not. Now they are not accepted, so there's not really a topic for this.

Btw; also a good example are the ideas in the instrcution booklets of "Designer Sets". The booklets include some instructions for some models, but also many ideas (shown with a lightbulb).

I'm not sure what everyone means by "they can not be accepted because they dont have official instructions"

Is this forum approved by lego? (and i mean promotoed as the official source to get LLD drawing and such) Or is this something that forum moderators decided was the way this was going to work? I'm just wondering why you couldnt have The original set and indexed with them any Alternate sets designed by Lego and promoted as such (meaning the sets on the boxes with no instructions)

I dont have any issue with how things are working now so my question is just from the outside looking in and not knowledageble about how things operate in this side of EuroSpace. :laugh:

View PostCalabar, on 05 December 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

In the Official Set in LDD topic these kind of alternatives are accepted as "extra".
That means a builder can provide that inside his post, but only the official version is indexed.
To say the true, this kind of extra is very rare.

Note that in old sets usually there are not instructions for these kind of alternative, but in more recent sets often you can find that.
In this case, the extra are accepted in the official set topics as alternative models. Here is a recent example.

Thats was probably my objective in posting this that although Lego never released instructions for these models, could we create an index and maybe even LD files or Real instructions for them? With all the memebrs and sources here it wouldnt be hard to track down all the images of other models and then start having them build. Its a dream i know but who knows!

#11 legolijntje

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

View Postnatesroom, on 05 December 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm not sure what everyone means by "they can not be accepted because they dont have official instructions"

Is this forum approved by lego? (and i mean promotoed as the official source to get LLD drawing and such) Or is this something that forum moderators decided was the way this was going to work? I'm just wondering why you couldnt have The original set and indexed with them any Alternate sets designed by Lego and promoted as such (meaning the sets on the boxes with no instructions)

:laugh: :laugh:
No, it is just me and Calabar (and maybe superkalle) who made some rules to keep the 2 indexes not too messy :wink:
I think the original reason to don't accept these (or at least don't put them in the index), was because nobody is able to be 100% sure if the model is correctly build; there are only 1 or 2 pictures available.

#12 PsyKater

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:40 PM

View Postnatesroom, on 05 December 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Or is this something that forum moderators decided was the way this was going to work? I'm just wondering why you couldnt have The original set and indexed with them any Alternate sets designed by Lego and promoted as such (meaning the sets on the boxes with no instructions)
Exactly. In a forum like this, thinks have to be organized and the LDD forum is one of the most organized and best moderated forums on EB (no sweettalking, just MHO).

I think it is a great idea, but I think it should be in a seperate thread, so that the other index contains only instruction-based entries.

View Postlegolijntje, on 05 December 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think the original reason to don't accept these (or at least don't put them in the index), was because nobody is able to be 100% sure if the model is correctly build; there are only 1 or 2 pictures available.

Exactly. And that's why it would be weird if these alternate sets would be included in the existing index. It should be seperate I think. Otherwise LDD builds like the Horizon Express could be included as well. ;)
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#13 legolijntje

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

In my opinion you (natesroom) may start such a topic. A good example is this one. It was just someone's idea, and there were quite some members who created and uploaded models.
Of course, nobody knows if this will be such a succes :look:

#14 natesroom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:49 PM

Hmm that makes sense and yeah that a cool idea about those seen in video games. I'd have to gather a few supporters who would like to see something like this come to fruition. I've never used LDD so i couldn't even begin to get it started with one or two and then have other start adding so it starts to swell and then have regular contributors. The one thing i like is that these probably only used the available pieces in the set to make them so you already have a limited amount of pieces to use (maybe thats good or maybe thats bad..lol

#15 Calabar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

Agree with legolijntje.
You could try to create that topic and maintain its index, if you think it is a good idea.
Obviously, if you decide to do that, you will have our support.

You don't need to have great familiarity with LDD. And I think you are starting very well, the idea that builders can use only the pieces available for the set (they can use the lxf present in the LDD Official Set topic to create custom palette, but pay attention to brick build replacements) is very good.
"Official LEGO Sets made in LDD" topic: Read guidelines before posting!

#16 natesroom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:59 PM

I'll work on it a little bit in the next couple of days and see if I can put together a starting point. The only issue i get is that it might not be as important and so gets lost in the shuffle.

#17 Calabar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

This is normal.
At start you and your support guys could add a new entry every few days to promote and know the topic.
Anyway if the topic works, it will be indexed in the section index, so it will be easy to find it.
"Official LEGO Sets made in LDD" topic: Read guidelines before posting!

#18 AndyC

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 12:47 PM

Is there a good source of images of aforementioned "alternate" models? It would help in determining how possible it was. The one difficulty I can imagine is that those sets are liable to have older parts that don't appear in LDD and making substitutions is even more difficult when you don't really know what parts are supposed to be there. It might be easier in LDraw, which typically has more older parts, although that depends on how easy you find making stuff in LDraw (I've always found it a little too cumbersome to be enjoyable).
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#19 Calabar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

View PostAndyC, on 06 December 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

The one difficulty I can imagine is that those sets are liable to have older parts that don't appear in LDD

The parts are the same of the related official set built using the instruction booklets.
That means you can use replacement parts and brick build solution thought for the official model and place that in the alternate one.

Perhaps the beautiful thing of these "almost-official" models is that builders can confront each other finding different solutions.
As the great part of the images from which the alternative model is taken don't show all the scene, there is a part of the build that can be personalized and every builder can try to build something unique and as beautiful as possible with the pieces that are available.
"Official LEGO Sets made in LDD" topic: Read guidelines before posting!

#20 natesroom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

Well i think we could start with a Series or something

Maybe this one is a good start:

http://www.flickr.co...ol-1566428@N21/

Set 6030 Catapult

#21 Calabar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

It seems a good start!
When your work will be ready, you should open a new topic similar to the LDD or LDRAW official set topics.
Remember to reserve some posts for introduction, rules, index, etc...
NOTE: you will not be able to add posts consecutively, because that posts will be automatically merged. So when you will be ready contact me and I'll alternate my posts to yours, and then I'll delete mine.

We need to find a title for the topic, maybe "Official LEGO Sets alternatives without instructions", maybe something better :grin:
The tag [KEY TOPIC] will be added by the staff, if the project will come out well.
"Official LEGO Sets made in LDD" topic: Read guidelines before posting!

#22 natesroom

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

Well as I said one of the problems would be that i didn't have any LDD experience nor am a good MOC'er to begin with. So it would need some community support to breathe life into it and then from there hopefully it would grow.

#23 legolijntje

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:21 PM

I made a quick example  (I used natesroom's 6030 set example) to demonstrate the idea:

Posted Image

You can download the model here.


I don't know if I used the correct colors (old brown dark and light gray), because I'm not really familiar with LDD, only wih LDraw.

#24 Gnac

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:33 AM

I support this topic, despite my fear of ennui from recreating some of the Designer Sets.

As much as I enjoy the Creator theme lately, TLG really went that extra mile with the instruction booklets for some of the Designer Sets. Even in sets which featured instructions for a dozen builds, there were many interstitial pages, full of concept drawings and ideas.

If only I could afford the cash to buy all those sets, or even to reverse-engineer them... I see great potential here for discovery and collaboration.
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#25 natesroom

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 01:26 PM

View Postlegolijntje, on 06 December 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

I made a quick example  (I used natesroom's 6030 set example) to demonstrate the idea:

Image.

You can download the model here.


I don't know if I used the correct colors (old brown dark and light gray), because I'm not really familiar with LDD, only wih LDraw.

Wow that is so cool!!! To actually see that is awesome.

So what i'd like to do is get every one of the Alternates box images created and then move to the next set and then fulfill that and as we do that the list will get longer and larger!




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