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Ragnarök Now - Day Four


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#51 Dragonator

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:45 AM

Well, things are certainly going well in the back room, thanks for your patience everyone.

In my discussions, I have had one role-claim which seems particularly odd, so I thought that should be the one I will bring forward. Finn came to me earlier today asking whether I was in contact with the watcher that targeted Bergulf on night two. This was working under an assumption from Hervi that this happened. (Did Hervi say this out loud or was Finn told privately? I need to clarify that). When I told Finn that the watcher did not target Bergulf that night, he found this odd, and said that he asked because he targeted Bergulf that night and was hoping the watcher saw who the other person was, as this second person would therefore be the framer under the framer idea proposed earlier. What I find odd about this is that it could also be seen as an attempt to clear himself of being the framer before he is accused of it. A rather odd and risky move for a depleted scum team, but perhaps there is some merit to my reasoning?

What I found even more odd was his role claim. He claims to have had an inheritor action, which would make him the investigator on the death of the current investigator, if he found that investigator before he died. apparently this did not work and he is now a vanilla townie. However, shouldn't it have worked when he targeted Bergulf on night two? He did not have any answer for why it did not.

I think Finn may be the best person to lynch today, particularly as it doesn't put any major town roles at risk in doing so. Thoughts people?

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#52 Capt. Redblade

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:03 AM

View Postfhomess, on 25 October 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Really?  It's unfortunate that the scum have nabbed some key Einherjar, but to get four of them this quickly bodes quite well for us.  The chances of finding the scum aren't growing slimmer at all.  Maybe if we were randomly picking out of a hat, but we're not.  We have quite a bit of discussion surrounding Hervi that we can look back on.  We have people who called out Sigmund previously.  We have the voting pattern for Gerrid.  That's quite a bit of information that we should be able to use to narrow down the rest of us to a handful of people.

Perhaps we can start by having you explain how you've been helping.  For example, when the votes were being cast against Gerrid, your lack of contribution to the bandwagon came right at the point when the deciding 12th vote and the securing 13th vote would've helped seal his fate.  Perhaps you were hoping that those votes would not come in?

Your vote for the now proven Einherjar Bergulf came at a point where it would make the vote 5 for Bergulf and 9 for Gerrid.  You even used the excuse that 3 votes had come in while placing your vote, yet that would've still been 6 for Gerrid.  The momentum had shifted yet you went against it in what now looks like an effort to split the vote.  I called you on it then and I'll call you on it again now.

The momentum had shifted, but not by much. The votes still stood 6 for Gerrid, 4 for Bergulf, 2 for Hervi, and 2 for Dragmall. Besides that, there was the strangely anticlimactic finale to the Hervi-Dragmall feud and Snotra was picking fights with everyone who looked cock-eyed at her. Carl voted for who he voted for amidst the swirling, torrential Hell-in-Valhalla and is smart enough to realize he made the wrong call.

And as to where Carl's been helping, he has been meeting with various parties on his own time and watching for useful leads. Just because someone doesn't talk doesn't mean they're not working hard.

View PostRick, on 25 October 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Just one remaining, huh? Do you know something we don't?
Carl has a tendency to assume five (at very most, six) scum due to his past experiences. Old habits and all that.

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#53 Scouty

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:06 AM

View PostDragonator, on 26 October 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

I think Finn may be the best person to lynch today, particularly as it doesn't put any major town roles at risk in doing so. Thoughts people?
I'd like to hear from Finn first and what he has to say, but initially, Finn is looking to be the better lynch for today.
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#54 TinyPiesRUs

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:02 AM

You may now vote. With 16 players remaining, a majority of 9 is required to lynch. 48 hours remain in the day.

#55 fhomess

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:19 AM

View PostDragonator, on 26 October 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

In my discussions, I have had one role-claim which seems particularly odd, so I thought that should be the one I will bring forward. Finn came to me earlier today asking whether I was in contact with the watcher that targeted Bergulf on night two. This was working under an assumption from Hervi that this happened. (Did Hervi say this out loud or was Finn told privately? I need to clarify that).
If you're Einherjar, you need to pay more attention.  It's in Hervi's Day 3 rant.  There's some truth in there amid all the lies.  The comment on the watcher targeting Bergulf is when he refers to the watcher as Mars seeing this Juno character.  I targeted Bergulf with my inheritor action.  Scum death rants are rarely 100% false as they're usually trying to cover for someone or something.  I decided that since I had targeted Bergulf, it would be a good idea to try to see if there was more truth hidden there that might reveal another scum.  If I was scum, I would be more likely to have claimed protector to be in line with Hervi's comments about his suspicions of Juno.  I have no idea if I'm really Juno or not.

View PostDragonator, on 26 October 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

When I told Finn that the watcher did not target Bergulf that night, he found this odd, and said that he asked because he targeted Bergulf that night and was hoping the watcher saw who the other person was, as this second person would therefore be the framer under the framer idea proposed earlier. What I find odd about this is that it could also be seen as an attempt to clear himself of being the framer before he is accused of it. A rather odd and risky move for a depleted scum team, but perhaps there is some merit to my reasoning?
The watcher seeing Juno seemed like a piece of information that Hervi would put in there as truth.  I don't know if it is, and you deny it to be the case.  Maybe you know maybe you don't.  Anyway, if I was scum and thought that a watcher had seen me target Bergulf, I'd not bring my name to the forefront at this point.  I'd wait and hope that there was enough confusion regarding that result to avoid suspicion.  I'm not scum.  I'm not afraid of putting my name out there in this way.

View PostDragonator, on 26 October 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

What I found even more odd was his role claim. He claims to have had an inheritor action, which would make him the investigator on the death of the current investigator, if he found that investigator before he died. apparently this did not work and he is now a vanilla townie. However, shouldn't it have worked when he targeted Bergulf on night two? He did not have any answer for why it did not.
I told you that my result came back similarly to Bergulf's result for night two and the protector's result for night one.  I was initially told success, but later that was corrected by Ragnar himself to say that I was actually disoriented and merely thought I was successful.  Given that Bergulf got the same mysterious result AND was wrong about his result on Hervi, it makes sense that my result was unsuccessful only if Bergulf had been tampered with rather than Hervi... OR if there are two mechanisms by which results are tampered with independently.  Last night, my action came back unsuccessful - no disorientation or anything.  The fact that I did not inherit the investigator action means that I've had two different failed attempts with my night action by two different means.  Given that, I think it's unlikely that there are two different means of tampering that result in the disoriented/woozy result.  This would mean that Bergulf was the target of another player besides myself.  If we could identify that player, we'd have a scum.

Now, if I propose this line of thinking, and we lynch that player and they're not scum, you'd rightly come and lynch me the next day.  If that player comes forward as Einherjar and explains that they have a tampering skill and targeted Bergulf because they thought he was scummy (most Einherjar who didn't know he was Artemis thought so), then we've got a logical explanation for why Bergulf's result came back wonky as well as my action having the same effect.  That wouldn't clear me, but it wouldn't convict me either.

View PostDragonator, on 26 October 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

I think Finn may be the best person to lynch today, particularly as it doesn't put any major town roles at risk in doing so. Thoughts people?
You are correct, that lynching me will not put any major town roles at risk, however you will also lynch a loyal Einherjar who's worked hard to root out scum.  Lest we forget the whole issues with Gerrid, who I expressed suspicion of before the issues between you and Hervi even began on day 2.  Meatshield can be a useful tool for scum, but if I was in on it with Hervi, wouldn't it have been much simpler to simply have Hervi present that case so he really could get full credit for it?  It doesn't make any sense that I would do it if we were partners, especially given that he had already been in contact with several Einherjar and was influencing decisions. No, Hervi tried to hop on my intuition and take credit for it.

The reason I presented this to you in private was because I felt you were trustworthy enough with the way you had attacked Hervi and how that had turned out.  I felt you would be likely to have enough information to piece things together and would be smart enough to see what a terrible move it would be for me to come to you with this if I was scum.

#56 Sandy

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:58 AM

View PostScouty, on 25 October 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

A vaguer sentence has not been uttered in these halls.

Actions speak louder than words, my friend. :wink:

If you want specifics, I currently think Dragmall and Petrus are the ones to follow. If I'm sadly mistaken, then so be it. It's not like anyone has shared any information with me, so how could I know better... :tongue:

View PostDragonator, on 26 October 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

I think Finn may be the best person to lynch today, particularly as it doesn't put any major town roles at risk in doing so. Thoughts people?

Finn actually made a pretty good case for himself just now, I think. Unlike Carl. Carl smells scummy to me.

But if Finn is your choice, then I will vote for you. Just for today.

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#57 Scubacarrot

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:01 AM

View PostChromeknight, on 26 October 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

Helping town or not Snotra?

What do you expect me to do? People don't even reply to me in thread. I asked a simple question that someone should know the answer to. No answer. I've given the PR's that Hervi knew about a a chance to come forward and explain shit. No answer. I am trying. But if people want to be dumb. They are dumb, and I can't change that.

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#58 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:24 AM

While there is quite a bit that could be said, my main problem I have is this:

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

I told you that my result came back similarly to Bergulf's result for night two and the protector's result for night one.  I was initially told success, but later that was corrected by Ragnar himself to say that I was actually disoriented and merely thought I was successful.  Given that Bergulf got the same mysterious result AND was wrong about his result on Hervi, it makes sense that my result was unsuccessful only if Bergulf had been tampered with rather than Hervi... OR if there are two mechanisms by which results are tampered with independently.  Last night, my action came back unsuccessful - no disorientation or anything.  The fact that I did not inherit the investigator action means that I've had two different failed attempts with my night action by two different means.  Given that, I think it's unlikely that there are two different means of tampering that result in the disoriented/woozy result.  This would mean that Bergulf was the target of another player besides myself.  If we could identify that player, we'd have a scum.
Technically speaking from what we have discussed thus far, it has been proposed that Bergulf actually received the correct result, but it was only because there was a tailor or a framer involved, which I assume is what you are actually being accused of. So basically you're claiming that you and Bergulf were woozy because someone else targetted him on Night 2?

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Now, if I propose this line of thinking, and we lynch that player and they're not scum, you'd rightly come and lynch me the next day.  If that player comes forward as Einherjar and explains that they have a tampering skill and targeted Bergulf because they thought he was scummy (most Einherjar who didn't know he was Artemis thought so), then we've got a logical explanation for why Bergulf's result came back wonky as well as my action having the same effect.  That wouldn't clear me, but it wouldn't convict me either.
Yes, but that means that anyone who targetted Bergulf that night should have gotten a woozy result (or by your logic an unsuccessful result) including the watcher and from my understanding this isn't the case.

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

You are correct, that lynching me will not put any major town roles at risk, however you will also lynch a loyal Einherjar who's worked hard to root out scum.  Lest we forget the whole issues with Gerrid, who I expressed suspicion of before the issues between you and Hervi even began on day 2.  Meatshield can be a useful tool for scum, but if I was in on it with Hervi, wouldn't it have been much simpler to simply have Hervi present that case so he really could get full credit for it?  It doesn't make any sense that I would do it if we were partners, especially given that he had already been in contact with several Einherjar and was influencing decisions. No, Hervi tried to hop on my intuition and take credit for it.
I believe the theory has already surfaced that Gerrid could have been serving as a meat-shield for multiple scum partners, plus whose to say that you didn't place a rabbit trail vote on Gerrid and when Hervi's assault against Dragmall didn't work he turned it into a meat-shield strategy? From my recollection the entirity of that day was spent pretty much on that argument between Hervi and Dragmall. In fact the only thing that stood out to me as weird at the time, was your issue with Gerrid.

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

The reason I presented this to you in private was because I felt you were trustworthy enough with the way you had attacked Hervi and how that had turned out.  I felt you would be likely to have enough information to piece things together and would be smart enough to see what a terrible move it would be for me to come to you with this if I was scum.
Unless, as has already been brought up, you knew you'd be outed by the watcher and wanted to be him to the punch.

Honestly, your role-claim doesn't sit well with me...

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#59 Scouty

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:28 AM

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

I told you that my result came back similarly to Bergulf's result for night two and the protector's result for night one.  I was initially told success, but later that was corrected by Ragnar himself to say that I was actually disoriented and merely thought I was successful.  Given that Bergulf got the same mysterious result AND was wrong about his result on Hervi, it makes sense that my result was unsuccessful only if Bergulf had been tampered with rather than Hervi... OR if there are two mechanisms by which results are tampered with independently.
Except that's not how it worked, the disorientation. Bergulf wasn't told he was successful and then later on he was disorientated, he was immediately told he was disorientated and that he thought his action was successful; I don't see how/why Ragnar would later on change your result :wacko:

It looks like Bergulf, as others have suggested, was indeed framed. It's curious then that you found the town investigator, yet your "inheritor" action still failed. It's not like your action is to look for the affiliation of people, getting fooled by framers and what not, but rather the simple yes, no question of finding the investigator. Am I right in thinking that? Regardless of whether Bergulf was framed or not, you found the town investigator. It's not like he became the scum investigator and then in that way your action failed. It's a question of mechanics, but it could also be just a made up role to preemptively protect yourself in case you were watched by the watcher.
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#60 Chromeknight

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

View PostScubacarrot, on 25 October 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Wait. So we have this "protector" who apparantly felt woozy one time. And then there is this Juno. Who may or may not be a protector. Are they the same person? Or what?
I think the answer to this has now come out. The way that it has come out may explain the reason for the delay.

View PostScubacarrot, on 25 October 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

You don't realize it's possible and even likely there was not just one scum in Hervi's little circle of dumb people? Come on now.
I think people do realise. Which is why it's difficult to sort out what Hervi spoke truely about and what he lied about.

View PostScubacarrot, on 26 October 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

What do you expect me to do? People don't even reply to me in thread. I asked a simple question that someone should know the answer to. No answer. I've given the PR's that Hervi knew about a a chance to come forward and explain shit. No answer. I am trying. But if people want to be dumb. They are dumb, and I can't change that.
Part of the difficulty here is that Hervi is a difficult player to play with when he's town. I suspect he same is true if he's scum. His teammates may be overwhelmed with information and have trouble sorting out what is fact from what is speculation. Going around shouting about stuff in thread. Is a dumb move. Surely you can see that.
Moreover there is a serial killer out there. Shouting to them, "hey I have a role" is an invitation to meet a broadsword since he wants to stay secret.

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#61 Pandora

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:28 AM

I agree that Finn's roleclaim seems odd, however it is not without the bounds of possibility. He is essentially a back-up role, and that's certainly nowhere nearly as unusual as the potential asctic role that is rumoured to be around. I think it would have been considerably more difficult for Finn to find the investigator if Bergulf hadn't drawn so much attention to himself on day one and then gone and claimed to a leaky scum. I can follow the logic of how Finn would have known that Bergulf was the investigator.


View PostWaterbrick Down, on 26 October 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Technically speaking from what we have discussed thus far, it has been proposed that Bergulf actually received the correct result, but it was only because there was a tailor or a framer involved, which I assume is what you are actually being accused of. So basically you're claiming that you and Bergulf were woozy because someone else targetted him on Night 2?
I believe that is what he's claiming, and in fact has already claimed.

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 26 October 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Yes, but that means that anyone who targetted Bergulf that night should have gotten a woozy result (or by your logic an unsuccessful result) including the watcher and from my understanding this isn't the case.
I believe this isn't the case because, as Dragmall has already said, the watcher didn't actually watch Bergulf that night.

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 26 October 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

I believe the theory has already surfaced that Gerrid could have been serving as a meat-shield for multiple scum partners, plus whose to say that you didn't place a rabbit trail vote on Gerrid and when Hervi's assault against Dragmall didn't work he turned it into a meat-shield strategy? From my recollection the entirity of that day was spent pretty much on that argument between Hervi and Dragmall. In fact the only thing that stood out to me as weird at the time, was your issue with Gerrid.
I went back to check; yes almost the entirety of the day was spent with Hervi and Dragmall arguing, but Finn actually called out Gerrid before all that started. It does seem odd to me that a scum would accuse one of their own just in case things didn't work out that day, why not accuse a townie? I believe Hervi took advantage of Gerrid's accusation, plus there are indications that privately Gofraid was also suspicious of Gerrid, so Hervi would presumably had to side with Gofraid to maintain cover. It would have been much easier for Hervi to lynch a townie if Finn hadn't already raised Gerrid as a suspect, and he could have waited for Gofraid to raise his own suspicions publicly.

View PostScouty, on 26 October 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Except that's not how it worked, the disorientation. Bergulf wasn't told he was successful and then later on he was disorientated, he was immediately told he was disorientated and that he thought his action was successful; I don't see how/why Ragnar would later on change your result :wacko:
Why report it had been changed at all? Why not just say he was disoriented in the first place?

View PostScouty, on 26 October 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

It looks like Bergulf, as others have suggested, was indeed framed. It's curious then that you found the town investigator, yet your "inheritor" action still failed. It's not like your action is to look for the affiliation of people, getting fooled by framers and what not, but rather the simple yes, no question of finding the investigator. Am I right in thinking that? Regardless of whether Bergulf was framed or not, you found the town investigator. It's not like he became the scum investigator and then in that way your action failed. It's a question of mechanics, but it could also be just a made up role to preemptively protect yourself in case you were watched by the watcher.
It fits with the odd 'woozy' feeling the protector experienced when protecting me night one. It is entirely possible that his/her protection didn't work as a result, given that the two kills we're accustomed to both happened that night, implying I wasn't a night kill target.
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#62 Scubacarrot

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostChromeknight, on 26 October 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

I think the answer to this has now come out. The way that it has come out may explain the reason for the delay.

I think people do realise. Which is why it's difficult to sort out what Hervi spoke truely about and what he lied about.

Part of the difficulty here is that Hervi is a difficult player to play with when he's town. I suspect he same is true if he's scum. His teammates may be overwhelmed with information and have trouble sorting out what is fact from what is speculation. Going around shouting about stuff in thread. Is a dumb move. Surely you can see that.
Moreover there is a serial killer out there. Shouting to them, "hey I have a role" is an invitation to meet a broadsword since he wants to stay secret.

I don't think the answer has come out, why don't you lay it out for me.

Are you listening to yourself. So for the off chance that Hervi has not been clear to his teammembers, which is a ridiculous notion in itself, you want to keep the PR's a secret, so that only the scum and the backstage dancers can know them? By the way, Broadsword is working with you isn't he? Why would he go killing PR's now.

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#63 Dragonator

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:06 PM

Well, let's get things going with a vote shall we?

Vote: Erik the Boneless (Etzel)

Why, you may ask? After I laid out a long case against Finn? Simply because I think Finn is likely telling the truth, his claims seem a little too out there to be fabrications at this point. That and several people have expressed their doubts that he is a servant of Loki, and his own words certainly make me feel more confident in him.

Erik however, has been utterly useless thus far, I believe I have even seen him hiding under the table at times. Not manly at all! He has gone with the crowd, and then tried not to have an opinion today by relying on suspicions of Bergulf. Let's hear from you Erik and see what you have to say. :thumbup:

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#64 Scubacarrot

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:08 PM

So you vote for a sheep now. Okay. It worked when Hervi tried it. He has been using his suspicion of Bergulf on any of the days to not have to participate very much. That's one tactic of hiding, I guess.

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#65 Pandora

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostDragonator, on 26 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Erik however, has been utterly useless thus far, I believe I have even seen him hiding under the table at times. Not manly at all! He has gone with the crowd, and then tried not to have an opinion today by relying on suspicions of Bergulf. Let's hear from you Erik and see what you have to say. :thumbup:
Erik, I would agree with Dragmall here that you have been unusually quiet. I've even gone back and looked at what you have had to say, and it didn't take too long.

You have seemed quite keen to defend yourself at the merest hint of suspicion cast upon you, so now is your time.

Bergulf was a useful patsy for the scum in so many ways, are you scum still using him as such?

Way back on day two, you raised some suspicions, how have your views evolved? You didn't exactly give any reasons at all for your suspicions, so I'd like to hear your views on why you found them suspicious then and how you feel about them now (with the exception of Chief Mursi, who we obviously know now to be Einherjar).
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#66 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:55 PM

While I would also like to hear from Erik, I would like some clarification as to why Finn's action was supposedly unsuccessful on Night 2.

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#67 fhomess

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:07 PM

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 26 October 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

While there is quite a bit that could be said, my main problem I have is this: Technically speaking from what we have discussed thus far, it has been proposed that Bergulf actually received the correct result, but it was only because there was a tailor or a framer involved, which I assume is what you are actually being accused of. So basically you're claiming that you and Bergulf were woozy because someone else targetted him on Night 2? Yes, but that means that anyone who targetted Bergulf that night should have gotten a woozy result (or by your logic an unsuccessful result) including the watcher and from my understanding this isn't the case.
As I said earlier, the intention of bringing this forward to Dragmall was that I believed him to be trustworthy with this information, and that he was most likely to have additional information that might shed light on an explanation for this.  If the watcher had targetted Bergulf and not gotten a woozy result or only seen me, I'd start to look for another explanation while understanding completely if the Einherjar decided to lynch me over it.  The information I had was presented with the goal of resolving an issue where I felt I could be helpful.

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 26 October 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

In fact the only thing that stood out to me as weird at the time, was your issue with Gerrid. Unless, as has already been brought up, you knew you'd be outed by the watcher and wanted to be him to the punch.
I picked out Gerrid because I saw something scummy in his behavior.  That's what we're all trying to do.  The last part of your concern here doesn't fit because I raised suspicion of Gerrid on Day 2, and the watcher situation arose on Night 2, afterwards.

View PostScouty, on 26 October 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Except that's not how it worked, the disorientation. Bergulf wasn't told he was successful and then later on he was disorientated, he was immediately told he was disorientated and that he thought his action was successful; I don't see how/why Ragnar would later on change your result :wacko:
I actually think this is a rather important element of the situation.  I would expect that if I was the only one targetting Bergulf, or if I had been targetted directly to get a disoriented result, that Ragnar would have gotten it correct immediately.  It's why I think it's more likely Bergulf was framed rather than Hervi being tailored.  I wouldn't expect a tailor or a framer to be more likely than the other for a group of scum, and I really wouldn't expect them to have both.  You yourself suggested that the tailor might actually be the Prankster that Hervi referred to, and that would make sense in a framer context, too.  Again, truth among the lies.  I suspect that the reason my result was changed was that something distracted Ragnar from processing it properly.  I was hoping someone might put the pieces together to find that third party.

View PostScouty, on 26 October 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

It looks like Bergulf, as others have suggested, was indeed framed. It's curious then that you found the town investigator, yet your "inheritor" action still failed. It's not like your action is to look for the affiliation of people, getting fooled by framers and what not, but rather the simple yes, no question of finding the investigator. Am I right in thinking that? Regardless of whether Bergulf was framed or not, you found the town investigator. It's not like he became the scum investigator and then in that way your action failed. It's a question of mechanics, but it could also be just a made up role to preemptively protect yourself in case you were watched by the watcher.
It is curious, but Bergulf himself was not a traditional investigator, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were other roles we're dealing with that also have a functional twist on the tradition.

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 26 October 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

While I would also like to hear from Erik, I would like some clarification as to why Finn's action was supposedly unsuccessful on Night 2.
If you look back at what I told Dragmall, you'll see that I'm trying to get to the bottom of this question myself.  Ultimately, I don't know the exact reason why I was unsuccessful.  I wasn't told I was blocked, and Hephastus claims to have been blocked last night with no disorientation.  I wouldn't expect protection to interfere with my result either, and I believe the people I've told would be aware of any protection on Bergulf that night.  I believe the answer to our question will either point us to a scum, or shed some light on the way an Einherjar night action works.  Personally, I think it's the former, and that's why I raised this issue.

View PostCapt. Redblade, on 26 October 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

And as to where Carl's been helping, he has been meeting with various parties on his own time and watching for useful leads. Just because someone doesn't talk doesn't mean they're not working hard.
Fair enough, but it does make it hard for the rest of us to see the fruits of your labor.  Do you have any leads to present?

#68 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

If you look back at what I told Dragmall, you'll see that I'm trying to get to the bottom of this question myself.  Ultimately, I don't know the exact reason why I was unsuccessful.  I wasn't told I was blocked, and Hephastus claims to have been blocked last night with no disorientation.  I wouldn't expect protection to interfere with my result either, and I believe the people I've told would be aware of any protection on Bergulf that night.  I believe the answer to our question will either point us to a scum, or shed some light on the way an Einherjar night action works.  Personally, I think it's the former, and that's why I raised this issue.
Alright, thank you for that. Unfortunately this is what the argument comes down to: why was your night 2 action not successful? Some people will choose to believe that it is becuase you are lying about it and you're a scum, while other people will choose to believe that you're telling the truth and there must be some strange explanation for it that will become clear in the end. :sceptic:  I really don't know where I stand on it for the moment anymore, so I'll guess I'll wait and see what Erik has for the day, in addition to reviewing more of the past statements.

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#69 Capt. Redblade

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:38 PM

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Fair enough, but it does make it hard for the rest of us to see the fruits of your labor.  Do you have any leads to present?

Carl's not sure how concrete this is, but have you noticed how Erik doesn't practice what he preaches where voting is concerned? First, on Day Two, he said...

Quote

I don't suspect you because of Danr's accusations, I just think you are amongst the group of people that voted at a suspicious time. I find it hard to trust what people say in this Hall and sometimes it is quite hard to follow what they say as well, therefore I tend to go more by vote patterns.

...Makes you think he would be more careful about where he places his votes. Then, he says...

Quote

I think we rather kill you, at least that's my opinion.

Vote: Snotra Carrotface (Scubacarrot)

Quite soon after, he unvotes, claiming to have misunderstood Snotra's joke. Some hours later...

Quote

Wow, votes are cast in all directions now. I get a feeling the Servents of Loki tries to make us spread the votes over several suspects to make sure none is convicted. Right now we have 3 votes each for Dragmall, Gerrid and Bergulf, and 2 votes for Hervi. I feel reluctant to vote for either Hervi or Dragmall at the moment since most of the discussion around those are based on misunderstandings and behavior from previous games of life. Gerrid and Bergulf are more likely to come up as scum I think, and my suspicions of Bergulf from the first day is enough to earn him a vote today as well.

Vote: Bergulf (badboytje88)

This comes amid the Dragmall-Hervi-Gerrid-Bergulf controversy, when the campaigns against both Gerrid and Bergulf were just starting to gain momentum and so it seems like either vote is a safe choice. Thus, Erik votes and disappears completely, only reappearing once more in the day to say this...

Quote

If I'm one of them you address here, which I presume, I'd like to answer with that I'm surely not only focused on you. You just happened to 1 of 2 main suspects to me when I cast my vote and your behavior yesterday was what earned you the extra distrust to make me chose you. Since then, a lot of people seem to favor a lynch of Gerrid instead of you and because I want to reach a conviction I will change my vote.

Unvote: Bergulf (badboytje88)
Vote: Gerrid (Captain Genaro)

By this point, the majority had been reached and set in stone. Erik's last-minute (quite literally, it was the final vote cast that day and came less than three hours before the conclusion went up) vote seems very much like a decision to jump on the bandwagon because he didn't want to be one of those who didn't vote for a scum. Next day, Day Three, he reiterates his case against Bergulf, explains his vote-switch, muddles his accusations, announces his intention to once more vote for Bergulf... and then votes for Hervi. Rather conveniently, this comes at a time when the Hervi-lynch is gaining momentum and looks like the safest bet, and he ends up safely hidden in the middle of the pack. Traditionally, the middle- or tail-end of the lynch mob is where scum like to hide, so, given Erik's habit of watching the voting patterns, shouldn't he have been more careful?

Carl is very anxious to hear Erik's explanation, so Carl shall motivate him by voting.

Vote: Erik the Boneless (Etzel)

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#70 fhomess

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:15 PM

Thanks, Carl.  I look forward to Erik's response.


View PostWaterbrick Down, on 26 October 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Alright, thank you for that. Unfortunately this is what the argument comes down to: why was your night 2 action not successful? Some people will choose to believe that it is becuase you are lying about it and you're a scum, while other people will choose to believe that you're telling the truth and there must be some strange explanation for it that will become clear in the end. :sceptic:  I really don't know where I stand on it for the moment anymore, so I'll guess I'll wait and see what Erik has for the day, in addition to reviewing more of the past statements.
I'm confused as to how the case against Erik would impact your opinion of whether or not I'm lying.  If you believe I'm lying, and the tone of your voice suggests you do, then you should lynch me regardless of what Erik says.  Are you just waiting until a group direction can become clear so you can figure out where to fit in?

#71 Chromeknight

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:56 PM

View PostScubacarrot, on 26 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

I don't think the answer has come out, why don't you lay it out for me.
Finn is concerned that he is the Juno Hervi was referring to. He is not the protector. Therefore the protector and Juno are likely not the same person.

View PostScubacarrot, on 26 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Are you listening to yourself. So for the off chance that Hervi has not been clear to his teammembers, which is a ridiculous notion in itself, you want to keep the PR's a secret, so that only the scum and the backstage dancers can know them? By the way, Broadsword is working with you isn't he? Why would he go killing PR's now.
Is broadsword working with us? I haven't seen any announcement from him in thread that that is the case. What are his win conditions? Did he previously have an alliance with the scum thy has folded? How does he chose his targets?

As for me wanting to keep power roles secret... Isn't that how this game works? Until I know exactly what the scum do and don't know, and by extension who the scum are and therefore who I can trust in this game, I'll be pigged if I'm going to blurt in thread the small amount things I do know.

Why is this such a big issue? Is it a trust thing?Is it that some people don't trust you and you feel locked out of what's going on?
Or do you have deeper motives?

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#72 Etzel

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:01 AM

Well, I'm feeling a bit absent minded at the moment but I will try and answer these suspicions the best I can.

View PostDragonator, on 26 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Well, let's get things going with a vote shall we?

Vote: Erik the Boneless (Etzel)

Why, you may ask? After I laid out a long case against Finn? Simply because I think Finn is likely telling the truth, his claims seem a little too out there to be fabrications at this point. That and several people have expressed their doubts that he is a servant of Loki, and his own words certainly make me feel more confident in him.

Erik however, has been utterly useless thus far, I believe I have even seen him hiding under the table at times. Not manly at all! He has gone with the crowd, and then tried not to have an opinion today by relying on suspicions of Bergulf. Let's hear from you Erik and see what you have to say. :thumbup:
You aren't really accusing me for anything in this statement. Yes, I've mostly voted with the crowd, but so far that has turned out well, don't you think? My suspicions of bergulf were wrong and I didn't really know who to turn my suspicions to this day. I haven't spent all days and nights whispering to people so I'm somewhat in the dark. Sure some persons seems more scummy than others but I have no concret eveidence.

View PostPandora, on 26 October 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Erik, I would agree with Dragmall here that you have been unusually quiet. I've even gone back and looked at what you have had to say, and it didn't take too long.

You have seemed quite keen to defend yourself at the merest hint of suspicion cast upon you, so now is your time.

Bergulf was a useful patsy for the scum in so many ways, are you scum still using him as such?

Way back on day two, you raised some suspicions, how have your views evolved? You didn't exactly give any reasons at all for your suspicions, so I'd like to hear your views on why you found them suspicious then and how you feel about them now (with the exception of Chief Mursi, who we obviously know now to be Einherjar).
My tacic with going by voting patterns alone wasn't very great. But at day two I didn't have much else to go after, that's why I still did it and chose to name those persons. Carl Poem-Piece and Beorn Ale-Lover are those who are still on my meager suspect list since they haven't really showed themself much during the day. Snotra seems too outspoken and agressive to be scum.

View PostCapt. Redblade, on 26 October 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Carl's not sure how concrete this is, but have you noticed how Erik doesn't practice what he preaches where voting is concerned? First, on Day Two, he said...



...Makes you think he would be more careful about where he places his votes. Then, he says...



Quite soon after, he unvotes, claiming to have misunderstood Snotra's joke. Some hours later...



This comes amid the Dragmall-Hervi-Gerrid-Bergulf controversy, when the campaigns against both Gerrid and Bergulf were just starting to gain momentum and so it seems like either vote is a safe choice. Thus, Erik votes and disappears completely, only reappearing once more in the day to say this...



By this point, the majority had been reached and set in stone. Erik's last-minute (quite literally, it was the final vote cast that day and came less than three hours before the conclusion went up) vote seems very much like a decision to jump on the bandwagon because he didn't want to be one of those who didn't vote for a scum. Next day, Day Three, he reiterates his case against Bergulf, explains his vote-switch, muddles his accusations, announces his intention to once more vote for Bergulf... and then votes for Hervi. Rather conveniently, this comes at a time when the Hervi-lynch is gaining momentum and looks like the safest bet, and he ends up safely hidden in the middle of the pack. Traditionally, the middle- or tail-end of the lynch mob is where scum like to hide, so, given Erik's habit of watching the voting patterns, shouldn't he have been more careful?

Carl is very anxious to hear Erik's explanation, so Carl shall motivate him by voting.

Vote: Erik the Boneless (Etzel)
What can I say? I've been unlucky with my voting.
Really, the voting pattern strategy wasn't very great, I know. And I didn't go by it much after day 2 since we had more to go on in forms of accusations and claims and what not. It might seem strange to not follow the strategy you speak for, but I think it's good to be able to realize when a strategy isn't working and then abandon it.

The Snotra incident was just a misunderstanding, nothing else.
Bergulf well, I didn't understood much of the whole Dragmall-Hervi-conflict so I just went with my previous suspicions. The last minute change of votes were pretty much to be at the safe side regarding getting a lynch that day. I was still worried that some migth unvote Gerrid so we wouldn't have the enough votes to convict him. Besides, I happend to be more aware of the situation at that time (read. online), so why not do something (since I clearly hasn't been doing much else).
The case on Hervi were laid out pretty clear so I felt it would be stupid not to go with the crown on that one. My own suspicions of Bergulf was not much against what Petrus and the others had on Hervi. And I thought that I could always look closer on Bergulf's actions later, which turned out useless.

So there, my thoughts on the matter. If you lynch me, you will lose a pretty useless Einherjar, but I am at least an Einherjar.

If you want me to raise my suspisions on someone else, fine, but I don't have strong cases on anyone, just suspicious feelings. For example on Stemid the Pale who has been almost as useless as me with nothing but wage talk and concuring with more outspoken persons.

#73 Sandy

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:49 AM

View PostEtzel, on 27 October 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

If you want me to raise my suspisions on someone else, fine, but I don't have strong cases on anyone, just suspicious feelings. For example on Stemid the Pale who has been almost as useless as me with nothing but wage talk and concuring with more outspoken persons.

I'm merely in the same boat as you claim to be, my friend. I know nothing, have been told nothing, and can do nothing. All I can do is either agree or disagree with people. And like I said earlier, today I'm going to follow Dragmall because he has proven to be the most trustworthy person so far, and vote: Erik the Boneless (Etzel).

I have to note, though, that Rurik the Bastard has been awfully quiet in comparison to his aggressive demeanor during the previous days. I wonder if seeing Hervi fall made him cautious...?

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#74 Rick

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:05 AM

View PostCapt. Redblade, on 26 October 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Carl has a tendency to assume five (at very most, six) scum due to his past experiences. Old habits and all that.
Yet, you were very explicit that there was one last scum to be found. You seemed to discount any other possibilities. I always get wary of people who seem to know too much about what we're up against. I for one am surprised we already managed to catch four scum on Day Four. It's almost to good to be true and it makes me wonder if the situation we're in is comparable to 'past experiences'.

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

If I was scum, I would be more likely to have claimed protector to be in line with Hervi's comments about his suspicions of Juno.  I have no idea if I'm really Juno or not.
Except that claim would have been suspicious after I pointed out that Hervi could be covering for Juno.

Quote

The watcher seeing Juno seemed like a piece of information that Hervi would put in there as truth.  I don't know if it is, and you deny it to be the case.  Maybe you know maybe you don't.  Anyway, if I was scum and thought that a watcher had seen me target Bergulf, I'd not bring my name to the forefront at this point.  I'd wait and hope that there was enough confusion regarding that result to avoid suspicion.  I'm not scum.  I'm not afraid of putting my name out there in this way.
Or you're using reverse psychology, but I agree it'd be a risky scum move. Let's hope that Dragmall is telling the truth and that Hervi didn't actually know about the watcher as I think they're an important weapon we still have against the scum. I was hoping the watcher would have been clever enough to watch Bergulf last night, as it was becoming clear he was Artemis and very likely Einherjar towards the end of Day Three.

Quote

No, Hervi tried to hop on my intuition and take credit for it.
And even then, the late Gofraid told me privately that Hervi was pretty reluctant to vote for Gerrid, and only did so after taking a nap (after unvoting Dragmall) and seeing Gofraid himself had voted for Gerrid. If this was an elaborate setup by the Servants of Loki that you were involved in, I would have expected things to be presented a lot smoother. This leads me to believe you're probably telling the truth for now.

View PostSandy, on 26 October 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Finn actually made a pretty good case for himself just now, I think. Unlike Carl. Carl smells scummy to me.

But if Finn is your choice, then I will vote for you. Just for today.
Are you even thinking for yourself here? :wacko: The way I see it, Dragmall doesn't have any more information surrounding this than you have, so how can you be willing to blindly follow Dragmall if you think Finn has "made a pretty good case for himself just now".

View PostPandora, on 26 October 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

It fits with the odd 'woozy' feeling the protector experienced when protecting me night one. It is entirely possible that his/her protection didn't work as a result, given that the two kills we're accustomed to both happened that night, implying I wasn't a night kill target.
I know we've been talking about this in private as well, but I still don't see how you getting framed on Night One or Bergulf getting framed on Night Two gives woozy results to actions that are not investigations. However, Finn's claim makes me think that the, what we thought was a framing action, actually messes with actions in other ways. Perhaps making all/some actions targeting the 'framed' target fail. This would explain why Finn didn't inherit the investigator action. Could it be the Prankster action we're looking for?

View Postfhomess, on 26 October 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I actually think this is a rather important element of the situation.  I would expect that if I was the only one targetting Bergulf, or if I had been targetted directly to get a disoriented result, that Ragnar would have gotten it correct immediately.  It's why I think it's more likely Bergulf was framed rather than Hervi being tailored.
Are you trying to say that you got the result from your night action before Ragnar knew Bergulf was getting 'framed' (or whatever it may be), or that Ragnar just made a mistake initially? I think the wording and timing of the results could be important here.

View PostSandy, on 27 October 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

I have to note, though, that Rurik the Bastard has been awfully quiet in comparison to his aggressive demeanor during the previous days. I wonder if seeing Hervi fall made him cautious...?
Like you, I don't have much to go on either, but least I'm trying to formulate my own thoughts on the matter. As is hopefully clear by now, I'm far from convinced about the 'case' against Finn. I don't know what to think of Erik, but I agree with questioning him, because his behaviour certainly has been odd.

I raised my suspicions about Wary at the start of the day, which he doesn't seem too interested to respond to. So far, he hasn't exactly reassured me with what he has said today. He has been quick to agree with Dragmall's case against Finn, even after Finn's convincing reply, and he's quick to agree with Dragmall again after he presents his case against Erik.

#75 Scubacarrot

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostChromeknight, on 26 October 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Finn is concerned that he is the Juno Hervi was referring to. He is not the protector. Therefore the protector and Juno are likely not the same person.

Is broadsword working with us? I haven't seen any announcement from him in thread that that is the case. What are his win conditions? Did he previously have an alliance with the scum thy has folded? How does he chose his targets?

As for me wanting to keep power roles secret... Isn't that how this game works? Until I know exactly what the scum do and don't know, and by extension who the scum are and therefore who I can trust in this game, I'll be pigged if I'm going to blurt in thread the small amount things I do know.

Why is this such a big issue? Is it a trust thing?Is it that some people don't trust you and you feel locked out of what's going on?
Or do you have deeper motives?

Look. Somewhere there's at least one scum we can catch. The earlier we get this shout in the open, get everybody involved, the earlier we either get a duplicate roll claim, information that does not match up. Or something along those lines.

So we did it Dragmall's way now. And what happened? Exactly jack shit happened. We go for a sheep. That's fine. He's suspicious, has been evading participation, his lynch would be justified.

But we have not used the mistakes Hervi made. And we should. To me going with the same town block that Hervi set up is just madness. Sure the town block themselves could figure it out. Possibly. But more eyes see more things.

I don't know why you're spewing this nonsense. I don't know why you act like this. You of all people should feel the need to come clean. As I hear it, you were one of Hervi's confidants. You're strategy sucks. And that's all I'm going to say about it. You have the nerve to accuse me? Get real.

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