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Ragnarök Now - Day Three


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#26 Etzel

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:57 PM

View Postdarkdragon, on 19 October 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Of course yesterday the bandwagon worked out great. However, I am inclined to think that the only people who knew it would are the scum. I voted Bergulf, I stick by that vote from yesterday. Others who voted him jumped off at literally the last moment, even when Gerrid was already enough votes for a lynch. Why would they do that, just so they didn't "not vote for scum"? Apparently that was a good move for them as you don't seem concerned at all with those.

Everyone that's not confirmed is still suspicious. Have you heard from a cop, because I sure haven't. Everyone is still suspect, even those who voted Gerrid yesterday. So, to me anyway the most suspicious things we have in the votes are the people who voted for someone "randomly", without any good reasons, and alone (thus splitting the votes and nearly causing no lynch); and the people who jumped on the bandwagon in the last hour or less.
I was one of those who changed vote late yesterday, but I hope I can explain why:
First when I was about to vote the votes were split all over the place with 2 for Dragmall, 3 for Hervi, 3 for Gerrid and 3 for Bergulf. I stated that I was choosing between Gerrid and Bergulf and that Bergulf's previous actions tipped the scale in his direction. But I did consider Gerrid already at that stage. Later, when I had returned from naps and sword training and what not, I saw that the voted had been piled up on Gerrid and that a conviction was about to happen. I knew that we had the numbers but I thought it would be best to be safe that we got a conviction even if some would change their votes in the last minute so I changed to Gerrid then. It really was almost 50/50 for me between Bergulf and Gerrid on who to vote for yesterday so I'm happy we got one of them. I'm still going to vote for Bergulf if nothing surprising comes up during the day because I think he has acted the most suspicious. I believe Hervi might be town, I have no evidence but my gut feeling on that, and since Bergulf voted on Hervi first and then changed to Gerrid quite late I'd like to hear some explanation on what he was thinking.

#27 badboytje88

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:15 PM

Well I never voted on Hervi. I voted for Dragmall first, then unvoted and voted on Gerrid.

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#28 Hinckley

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:16 PM

View PostEtzel, on 19 October 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

and since Bergulf voted on Hervi first and then changed to Gerrid quite late I'd like to hear some explanation on what he was thinking.

Perhaps you are referring to Dragmall, as Bergulf never voted for me.

View Postbadboytje88, on 19 October 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Well I never voted on Hervi. I voted for Dragmall first, then unvoted and voted on Gerrid.

See? :laugh:

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#29 Etzel

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:32 PM

View Postbadboytje88, on 19 October 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Well I never voted on Hervi. I voted for Dragmall first, then unvoted and voted on Gerrid.
Oh, sorry I mixed that up. :blush:

#30 Capt. Redblade

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:40 PM

View PostEtzel, on 19 October 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I'm still going to vote for Bergulf if nothing surprising comes up during the day because I think he has acted the most suspicious.
Carl seconds this opinion. He is still wary of Bergulf from Day One and wishes to settle the matter once and for all.

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#31 Palathadric

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:38 AM

View Postbadboytje88, on 19 October 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Well I never voted on Hervi. I voted for Dragmall first, then unvoted and voted on Gerrid.
The question still stands. Why are you ignoring the question posed and instead correcting him for using the wrong name?

As far as voting late is concerned, I knew the votes would be closed very soon after I changed my vote, in fact, I thought he may close them at any moment and, I must have counted wrong, but I thought there was only eleven votes cast, so I quickly added mine to ensure a lynch. I had also stated several times previously that I was hesitating between Bergulf and Gerrid, but I though Bergulf slightly more suspicious.

Although it's nice to think that "The Foog" was our vigilante, there really is no indication of it except from the text shown us which said something about him not being able to find his spear. Apart from that, there has never been anything to suggest that there ever was three killers, but this point doesn't really matter, because, whether "The Foog" was a vigilante or not, he is now dead, so I see know real purpose in wasting time speculating about it.
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#32 Scouty

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:51 AM

No point in speculating about it? There's almost always a point in speculating about something, especially when it includes the vigilante, one of town's most powerful weapons. I don't know what to make out of Gofraid's death, I'm wary to take much info from it, as it has been declared that the text is free of clues. It's an interesting series of events, for sure, and I'm not sure what conclusion I can come to with it :wacko:
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#33 Palathadric

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:03 AM

But what does it help us, exactly? Sure there are reasons for talking about...well...anything. Even just speaking utter nonsense, but how does it help us to speculate? What is there to speculate about anyway? Either "The Foog" was the vig or he wasn't. Does anyone have any facts to support whether he was not? I kind of doubt it. Does the evidence lean towards him being the vig way? In most cases, yes. In others, no. How much more is there to say about this? Not much. Great! So how did this help us?

The fact is that if he was the vig, he is dead and is not killing for us anymore, not that he ever did...but I see no need to carry on. This probably doesn't help us either. :sceptic:
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#34 Hinckley

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:11 AM

View PostPalathadric, on 20 October 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Although it's nice to think that "The Foog" was our vigilante, there really is no indication of it except from the text shown us which said something about him not being able to find his spear. Apart from that, there has never been anything to suggest that there ever was three killers, but this point doesn't really matter, because, whether "The Foog" was a vigilante or not, he is now dead, so I see know real purpose in wasting time speculating about it.

The fact that he was Einherjar and had the ability to kill a target at night would indicate that he was the vigilante.

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#35 Palathadric

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:12 AM

Is there anything telling us that he could kill at night though, apart from the spear thing from today's newspaper? If there was, forgive me for missing it. :blush:
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#36 Darkdragon

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:19 AM

View PostPalathadric, on 20 October 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Is there anything telling us that he could kill at night though, apart from the spear thing from today's newspaper? If there was, forgive me for missing it. :blush:
There was all the text, but it doesn't say specifically.

View PostTinyPiesRUs, on 19 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

"Hey! That's mine!" yelled Gofraid the Foog (Fugazi). The figure kept running. Gofraid wouldn't get his spear back back tonight. It was probably going to be tossed into a pond somewhere.

"Now how am I going to kill my target?" Gofraid wondered to himself, "I suppose I could use my normal weapons, but then the lovely people at home would know who the killer was..."

Gofraid collapsed back onto his chair, frustrated at this turn of events. He shivered away in his cold little room, puzzled that not even Valhalla could provide him with some warm clothing.


#37 Hinckley

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:22 AM

Only this:

View PostTinyPiesRUs, on 19 October 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

"Now how am I going to kill my target?" Gofraid wondered to himself, "I suppose I could use my normal weapons, but then the lovely people at home would know who the killer was..."

But maybe I'm misinterpreting... :hmpf:

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#38 Chromeknight

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:32 AM

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#39 Capt. Redblade

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:34 AM

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

But maybe I'm misinterpreting... :hmpf:
Yeah, a statement like that is rather open to interpretation. :sarcasm:

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#40 Dragonator

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM

Very interesting. These night results confirm a lot for me, mainly my true suspicions from yesterday, which I threw away in favour of seeing whether Hervi could perhaps be trusted. I think I have a good idea of what would be most beneficial for us to do today.

So we got a servant last night, this is good. It is also good because it tells us a lot about the votes yesterday. Let's be honest, there was hardly any case against Genaro. So why was he voted off so easily? It's a very simple thing that Steinvor knew well; Meatshield. Who was performing this meatshield? Hervi was.

Hervi is a scared chap, he clearly wants to get rid of the power players first. This is clear in the selection of Steinvor to be killed on the first night, when he was unsure who had the power roles. The next day, he attempted to use a fake reason to vote for me, another "old" member of the Hall, and when this failed because none of the other people who saw the fake reason agreed with him, he changed plans and tried to convince me he had seen the error of his ways, and wanted to vote off Genaro. He also convinced his "group" to vote for Genaro too. Now who ends up dead? Two of his group, one of whom was the town vigilant. My concern is that Hervi knew I was in contact with the town protector, and at no point told me to suggest the protector target Gofraid. It would also make sense for the servants of Loki to block Gofrain at the same time as they kill him.

Part of the reason I suspect a meatshield, aside from Hervi's interactions with myself, is that as soon as today started he popped in and noted his sadness at losing so many townies that were in his town block. This was immediately followed by Wary praising Hervi for leading the charge against Genaro, which as I recall was actually suggested by other people and Hervi was just most vocal about the switch to lynching him in the late afternoon yesterday. It certainly highlights that some feel he is completely responsible for the taking out a servant of Loki however. Meatshield. I get the feeling Wary is simply misled by Hervi's words thus far, which would indicate that Hervi's plan is having some success.

View PostSandy, on 19 October 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

But on another note, it seems Hervi lost two of his contacts in a row. It is obvious that the Servants have been closely watching Hervi, maybe even tried to get into contact with him. This is probably the Servant's way to break up any alliances being formed - or a more worrying option, Hervi's way to make himself look innocent and trustworthy.
My view also.

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 19 October 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

If this Artemis is the real deal, then I can't see why Hervi (if he is scum) would let him live and go after Gofraid instead, if you're scum I can't think of very many reasons to keep an investigator around, too much of a liability in my book. I'm with Finn currently on wondering about those who switched their vote after we had already reached a majority on Gerrid, it feels like they were trying to blend in. :sceptic:
I disagree. trying to suggest that Hervi would go after Artemis if he were scum doesn't make sense. If you have the option to kill the vigilant or the investigator as scum, of course you kill the vigilant first, particularly when you have the investigator under your control and can direct him to investigate whoever you like. If Hervi is the godfather this makes things even more likely, but at this point I actually suspect that Artemis, who I know the identity of, could also be a servant of Loki. Or perhaps just mislead? More on that soon. Think back to the first day and consider that Artemis roleclaimed to Hervi immediately, for no good reason. What sort of investigator does that without investigating the person first? One that is either a fake, or not thinking. If the investigator is being rash, then Hervi probably feels safe directing him. I would also perhaps hazard the argument that Hervi is the godfather, and so can make himself appear trustworthy to Artemis while directing her away from his fellow scum.  Or perhaps there is another reason?

Hervi claims that Artemis targeted him last night and found that they are both on the same side. Lynching Hervi would also be a good way to find out whether that is true. However I heard another interesting thing which Hervi did not tell me; Artemis "thinks" they are both on the same side. This also lines up with the protector on the first night, who felt woozy after protecting someone. I have discussed this with the protector, and he feels that we may have a "tailor" to deal with on the scum side, who would definitely make Hervi more confident in controlling the investigator as he could manipulate the results.

As an alternative, if Hervi did not have a reason to think Gofraid was the vigilant, then Hervi could well have targeted him because he wanted Artemis to investigate him and find him to be a townie, thanks to being the godfather or "tailoring" of the results. Thus Hervi had someone in his group, who he knew had an action of some sort, killed. Either way it was a logical choice for a servant of Loki.

I think that lynching Hervi today will clear up the most confusion. He does not have a useful town action, so we need not worry about that. His death will confirm several things for us.
1. If he is scum then we have a good start for finding his fellow scum.
2. If he is scum, then Artemis is of major concern and we will need to consider what to do there. I have outlined some options, that Artemis is also scum, or that Artemis was tricked by another role.
3. His actions thus far have been one of a desperate servant of Loki, manipulating the town vote every day to target who he wants. If he is scum, this will help clear up confusion in the vote patterns so far, vice versa if he is town.
4. It will confirm the meatshield theory as true/false, which will help us analyse who else was most keen for Genaro to die. If Hervi was using him as a meatshield, the other scum likely were too.
5. On the flip side, if he is town, we can confirm our investigator and know to protect her, which is quite important.
6. If he is town, then we will have an idea of who to go after next, as not many knew the identity of Posiedon.

As this is a team effort, I am sure Hervi can see the benefits of lynching himself at this stage. His death will serve to help the town more than living, as it will clear up a lot of issues we have encountered and will give us a clear way forward. A true townie would want to do the best thing to help the town, even if that means being the lynch candidate for the day when that would be most beneficial to all. If he resists, well this is equally telling, isn't it?

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#41 Pandora

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:16 AM

We are doing well to have already gotten rid of two Servants, however it comes at a heavy cost. Their deaths do serve to provide us with some information, so we should respect their passing and not ignore the clues they might have left behind.

The events of the night are curious; we are shown what happens to Gofraid before he dies, and firstly those actions imply he has a night action (and Hervi attests that this was indeed the case) and secondly that he was prevented from using such action (evidently killing, what with it being a hulking-great spear and everything and him talking about killing his target). So why are we shown this? We didn't see what Jormund was up to the night he died, and given he was scum surely he would have been up to something, right? The dark figure legging it down the hallway seems to be slightly different from either of the other dark figures seen last night - he has a hood but no cape. Is this perhaps a suggestion of a second faction? I know the artist's impressions of the night's events are not meant to be taken completely seriously, but I do wonder why we were shown it at all.

It is also evident that Gofraid didn't use his action night one, and given he was a vigilante he may not have been compelled to do so (unlike a serial killer who is compelled, but we know he wasn't that because he was shown to be loyal). If he weren't compelled, then he wouldn't have been seen attempting his kill (by any tracker or watcher type), so, aside from being a fearless and fearful warrior, it would seem the motive for his murder would be someone knowing he was the vig because he told them. (Yes Hervi, I'm still looking at you.) There are other possibilities, such as his target being protected (it would be remarkable for a vig target to be also targeted by a town protector - the profiles of those two targets would be very different) but he couldn't have been blocked (unless by the scum, which would suggest they knew something about him) as Artemis, the unusual investigator, was apparently blocked night one. Role-cop is perhaps another possibility, but would the scum have had a reason to investigate him night one? It is also quite remarkable that Gofraid was not only killed but blocked last night. To have attracted the attention of two ill-meaning vikings on the same night is unfortunate at best and highly suspicious at worst. It does rather imply that the scum suspected he was likely to target one of their own and made sure he couldn't get his kill in before he died at their hands, which makes me further think it was someone who knew exactly what his role was.

Chief Mursi... hmm, I was a little surprised to see him declared loyal in that rather ultimate way. We know he wasn't killed by the servants of Loki (the same killer killed a servant night one) but he's a very odd choice for a serial killer kill. A very odd choice indeed, but a fairly logical scum kill. And that makes me wonder if either the serial killer has already teamed up with the scum and is doing their bidding, or if it isn't a serial killer at all and is another faction, although another faction wouldn't have know Mursi was town. It's a bit early in our ordeal for the SK to have already found the scum and agree to work with them, but I find the possibility of a second scum faction distracting at the moment. It is certainly something to consider, though.

Knowing now that Gerrid was scum, and looking back on her actions, I find it interesting to note that part of the reason she was suspected in the first place (by Finn and Gofraid) was her voting behaviour on day one. She was happy to hide by voting for Danr, or happy to hide by not voting at all, but she certainly was not happy to hide by placing her vote on Bergulf. And having said that she didn't want to defend anyone as nobody she thought was town had been accused, she made a lot of supportive points for Hervi at the time she voted for Dragmall - how it didn't sound like something the scum would do, it's too audacious (I'm paraphrasing) and Hervi's been a piggly-fiddler long enough to know better, that sort of thing. For someone who was known to hide, she made quite a bit of a song and dance about this. Either that or she didn't truly believe Hervi to be town.

Frankly, today I'd be willing to vote out either Hervi or Bergulf as I think they're both scummy as hell. I think that Hervi is a far greater threat to the town, especially as the world and his pig seems to have claimed to him and irrationally trusted him from day one, but really I'm not fussed about the order as long as they both get lynched. We are now lacking in a vigilante to help us out at night, so our lynch is even more important.
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#42 Hinckley

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

Very interesting. These night results confirm a lot for me, mainly my true suspicions from yesterday, which I threw away in favour of seeing whether Hervi could perhaps be trusted. I think I have a good idea of what would be most beneficial for us to do today.

So we got a servant last night, this is good. It is also good because it tells us a lot about the votes yesterday. Let's be honest, there was hardly any case against Genaro. So why was he voted off so easily? It's a very simple thing that Steinvor knew well; Meatshield. Who was performing this meatshield? Hervi was.

Hervi is a scared chap, he clearly wants to get rid of the power players first. This is clear in the selection of Steinvor to be killed on the first night, when he was unsure who had the power roles. The next day, he attempted to use a fake reason to vote for me, another "old" member of the Hall, and when this failed because none of the other people who saw the fake reason agreed with him, he changed plans and tried to convince me he had seen the error of his ways, and wanted to vote off Genaro. He also convinced his "group" to vote for Genaro too. Now who ends up dead? Two of his group, one of whom was the town vigilant. My concern is that Hervi knew I was in contact with the town protector, and at no point told me to suggest the protector target Gofraid. It would also make sense for the servants of Loki to block Gofrain at the same time as they kill him.

A lot of what you are saying here is conjecture and based on assumption and probably (and most unfortunately) the continuing influence of a ghost. But since this is what I have in context of our situation, this is what I have to directly respond to, so let me see if I can't show where you're over-thinking our results, or possibly manipulating them.

As far as convincing "my group" to vote for Genaro, yes I asked a couple people if they would vote along and you know exactly why I asked that. And there's something else you're missing that would require me identifying Artemis to point out, so I'll send you that in private. And I spoke of voting for Genaro when you had more votes than me and most people hadn't weighed in yet. I've explained several times and you've offered no evidence to the contrary, that the information that you had claimed to be a neutral was presented as a joke. You yourself even admit that Steinvoir was messing with my head, so how could it be presented as a joke and messing with my head at the same time? I don't see how it can be both. Considering a vote for Genaro at the time I did was due to the discussion being had. I was being "indecisive," as you then stated was my Town tell, yet now you're calling it a Scum tell. My thoughts always evolve during these games and they respond to information given by others and thoughts, discussions and theories raised by others.

As far as talking about protecting someone, I only suggested the Town blocker, that you mentioned to me, being protected. I know of other Power Roles and wouldn't mention them to you as I have no reason to fully trust you yet. So, no, I wouldn't say I think Gofraid (or anyone else who has claimed to me) has an Action, go protect him as you are just as likely to be Scum. The information you brought me yesterday that caused our truce hasn't been confirmed and neither have you. I haven't had much contact with you outside of that conversation, so your sudden turn back to suspecting me must be based on the influence of others, or possibly your own Scuminess.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

Think back to the first day and consider that Artemis roleclaimed to Hervi immediately, for no good reason. What sort of investigator does that without investigating the person first? One that is either a fake, or not thinking. If the investigator is being rash, then Hervi probably feels safe directing him. I would also perhaps hazard the argument that Hervi is the godfather, and so can make himself appear trustworthy to Artemis while directing her away from his fellow scum.  Or perhaps there is another reason?

Discussion of why this person did what they did would give away their identity, so since you already know who it is, I would only be willing to discuss this with you in private.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

Hervi claims that Artemis targeted him last night and found that they are both on the same side. Lynching Hervi would also be a good way to find out whether that is true. However I heard another interesting thing which Hervi did not tell me; Artemis "thinks" they are both on the same side. This also lines up with the protector on the first night, who felt woozy after protecting someone. I have discussed this with the protector, and he feels that we may have a "tailor" to deal with on the scum side, who would definitely make Hervi more confident in controlling the investigator as he could manipulate the results.

How does someone "thinking" or "believing" something line up with being woozy? And what does being woozy mean? I'm waiting to hear back from Artemis as I didn't get this as part of her results. Seeing what she wrote to me this morning I see the word "believe" but took it as the way she was telling me, not that it was a caveat from the host. Yes, it is a concern if that was part of the results from the host, but as I don't have confirmation from her, I'm not sure exactly what to think of it. I know I am Einherjar so I would find the result annoying as I just wanted to move forward from this point. However, this is the first result we've gotten from Artemis so we have nothing to compare it to. In previous games, we've seen "thinks" or "believes" as a result of a naive investigator and from a redirection of an ascetic bwankie. Tailoring or framing usually involves a definite result, at least in my experience, or when it's my turn to host D&D. Either way, one result is not enough to base anything concrete off of and I heard no discussion of this from Artemis so I'd like to speak with her to discern if anybody is manipulating her.

Furthermore, I didn't know who Artemis was investigating. Originally she told me she would target me and Petrus and when I discussed that with Mursi and Gofraid they said that if we couldn't see results from Artemis she was going to get me and her or both of us lynched. So, I asked Artemis to please target herself and someone else. I didn't say it had to be me, I just said someone else. If she came back today with results that said "I compared player x and player y and they're on the same team" or "I compared player x and player y and they're on different teams." and player x or y wasn't Artemis, I would expect everyone would ask for her identity and to lynch her because we would all be left scratching our heads. (Especially imagine in this situation if she came back with "I compared Petrus and Hervi... :wacko: ) She did tell me eventually I would be the other target, but I had no reason to believe that was true. I would hope she would leave that open-ended for herself as someone should who doesn't have their confidante verified. Sometimes I do wonder if it's been worth the trouble I've been going through to help Artemis, but as I'd hate to lose (potentially) our only investigator, I've been working pretty hard to help her out. And that has explained many of my Actions to you as we talked about yesterday.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

As an alternative, if Hervi did not have a reason to think Gofraid was the vigilant, then Hervi could well have targeted him because he wanted Artemis to investigate him and find him to be a townie, thanks to being the godfather or "tailoring" of the results. Thus Hervi had someone in his group, who he knew had an action of some sort, killed. Either way it was a logical choice for a servant of Loki.

Well, this is true. Gofraid would've made a good target for the Scum. He's a smart player and other smart players were trusting him and it pretty much came out in the day thread that he had an Action, if you were paying attention. I bet the Scum are paying close attention and would've caught that. Or as Petrus suggested, a role cop found him. That would be extremely lucky for night one, but as the "blocker" or whoever is stealing Gofraid's spear is also wearing a hood like the other boar-vandalizing jerks from the beginning, it is likely that he was blocked and killed by the same side. Certainly a concern that they knew he was up to something. If a role cop targeted him Night One and found out he was the vigilante, of course the Scum would want to block and kill him.

And isn't it also an added bonus for the Servants of Loki that killing Gofraid has focused your suspicions on me and caused you to elevate me to your main suspect? Perhaps they thought the death of Gofraid would implicate a pig-lover who was starting to form a town block. Oink oink.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

1. If he is scum then we have a good start for finding his fellow scum.
And if I'm not, where do you go from there?
2. If he is scum, then Artemis is of major concern and we will need to consider what to do there. I have outlined some options, that Artemis is also scum, or that Artemis was tricked by another role.

But if this "thinking" or "believing" thing in her result is what's led you to believe I've messed with the results somehow, how would Artemis be implicated if I am Scum? Can't be both. If we're both Scum, why would she give a result that implicates me? :wacko: Just like your woozy boy, if Artemis confirms that his result was worded weirdly, we don't know what that means. You're very quick to jump to the conclusion that the result itself was tampered with when a protector got a woozy result on someone, which as far as I know in unprecedented. I don't see how the two situations compare.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

3. His actions thus far have been one of a desperate servant of Loki, manipulating the town vote every day to target who he wants. If he is scum, this will help clear up confusion in the vote patterns so far, vice versa if he is town.

Both days I have placed a vote. Both of the people I voted for ended up getting lynched. I hardly call what I've done manipulation. Again, you know why I asked you to vote for Genaro and it's not because I'm desperate to perform a meatshield. :hmpf: This is a ridiculous theory employing several assumptions. And you know I can't explain why I asked you to vote for Genaro, which would be a very convenient place for Scum to sit. I don't know which you are, Scum or a Townie misguided by echoes from the grave, but bringing up something I can't defend myself against publicly would be a rather clever Scum move.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

4. It will confirm the meatshield theory as true/false, which will help us analyse who else was most keen for Genaro to die. If Hervi was using him as a meatshield, the other scum likely were too.
5. On the flip side, if he is town, we can confirm our investigator and know to protect her, which is quite important.
6. If he is town, then we will have an idea of who to go after next, as not many knew the identity of Posiedon.

You and your closest ally were two people who knew who Poseidon was.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

As this is a team effort, I am sure Hervi can see the benefits of lynching himself at this stage. His death will serve to help the town more than living, as it will clear up a lot of issues we have encountered and will give us a clear way forward. A true townie would want to do the best thing to help the town, even if that means being the lynch candidate for the day when that would be most beneficial to all. If he resists, well this is equally telling, isn't it?

I've always said I would take a lynch before giving up any of the identities of those who have claimed to me. I stand by that if that's what needed. However, it seems the only concrete thing you have would be Artemis's odd result, which I haven't even clarified yet, so I'd like to hear more from Artemis about that. Everything else you have is based on assumptions and conjecture. I think the Scum would want me lynched because I stand as a threat that can steamroll them by confirming and coordinating the people who claimed to me. The other two people who were my backups, and knew almost everything I knew are unfortunately dead. I'm sure the Town can get by without me as long as I leave the information with a likely successor who will continue to help. But, I will not just lay down and be lynched for someone who has done nothing in this game but accuse me based on metagaming and then continue to accuse me based on a mass of assumptions. You could be Scum, or manipulated by Scum, or just over-thinking what we've seen. I suspect you are simply haunted by Shadows of the past... I don't think you'd be this bold as Scum, so I assume you are an Einherjar. It's a shame that you've convinced yourself by what are probably your own jumps in logic or other influences. If we can confirm each other, we can pool our knowledge and have a good chunk of Town Power Roles working together. I suggest we start by looking further into Artemis's result. If she's gone to you, she doesn't trust me at this point and I'm wondering why. And after all you know I've been doing for her, I'd find the lost of her trust troubling, as if she's being influences by an outside source.

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#43 badboytje88

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 07:23 AM

View PostEtzel, on 19 October 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I was one of those who changed vote late yesterday, but I hope I can explain why:
First when I was about to vote the votes were split all over the place with 2 for Dragmall, 3 for Hervi, 3 for Gerrid and 3 for Bergulf. I stated that I was choosing between Gerrid and Bergulf and that Bergulf's previous actions tipped the scale in his direction. But I did consider Gerrid already at that stage. Later, when I had returned from naps and sword training and what not, I saw that the voted had been piled up on Gerrid and that a conviction was about to happen. I knew that we had the numbers but I thought it would be best to be safe that we got a conviction even if some would change their votes in the last minute so I changed to Gerrid then. It really was almost 50/50 for me between Bergulf and Gerrid on who to vote for yesterday so I'm happy we got one of them. I'm still going to vote for Bergulf if nothing surprising comes up during the day because I think he has acted the most suspicious. I believe Hervi might be town, I have no evidence but my gut feeling on that, and since Bergulf voted on Hervi first and then changed to Gerrid quite late I'd like to hear some explanation on what he was thinking.

Well at first I voted for Dragmall cause it seemed to make sense after listening to Hervis play. After a while it appeared that the majority of the people were going to vote of Gerrid. I thought a conviction hadn't been reached at that time and decided to change my vote to Gerrid because I didn't want to end the day without a lynch. If I'd know I didn't have to change my vote to get Gerrid lynched I probably wouldn't have changed it.

And if I was a member of the scum and a teammate of mine was getting lynched I probably would have switched my vote sooner than last minute just to blend in with the big herd.

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#44 Hinckley

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 07:29 AM

I've spoken with Artemis. She did not inform me that she was woozy, but now confirms that it was part of her result. She also confirms that her result was phrased as "believing" we were on the same team, which I agree, would all indicate that something is wrong with the result. Her explanation for not sharing this info with me is that she did not trust her result. I wouldn't share it with me either if the result was not trusted. I'm not sure what it was about Dragmall that made her trust him, but there we have it. Dragmall informed me that a protector got the same result in the morning about being "woozy" after Night One, so had Artemis told me that she was woozy, I would've shared that with Dragmall right away as I did share the result that I was given with him.

So, I'm exhausted and more than a little confused, so I'm going to go wrap a sack around my head and go roll in the mud with my piggies. Oink

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#45 Sandy

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:20 AM

Uh oh, Hervi feels threatened... It seems Dragmall is on the right tracks. I don't think we have any other way of really knowing whether Hervi lies or not but to swiftly lynch him. If he is scum and we let him live to "confirm himself", he will have time to do a lot of damage. I reckon he knows most of the power roles by now, so no matter what his allegiance is, he holds the reins (as usual).

So far, Hervi has come across as very helpful, but somehow I don't feel "helped" at all. The whole Dragmall-vote-shebang yesterday was confusing as hell, and it's true that Hervi seems to have taken the credit for Gerrid's lynch, even though he did not initiate it.

This doesn't mean that Dragmall couldn't be lying, or mislead us, but he's certainly making a bold statement. It's either him or Hervi today, I think.

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#46 Dragonator

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:38 AM

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

A lot of what you are saying here is conjecture and based on assumption and probably (and most unfortunately) the continuing influence of a ghost. But since this is what I have in context of our situation, this is what I have to directly respond to, so let me see if I can't show where you're over-thinking our results, or possibly manipulating them.
Actually it's entirely based off logical reasoning. I did a quick switch yesterday to being your friend and you were happy to go with it, which I found odd. Still, I played along and listened. A lot of what you said made vague sense, but now I am certain I was right yesterday, and that you are scum. Don't you think it odd that I suddenly dropped my case against you? Joke by Steinvor or not, you still tried to get me killed for a very thin reason, and your actions since have continued to make me want to lynch you so that we can have some confirmation. The fact your entire response to my rather detailed outline of my reasons for wanting to lynch you was to say that I am being influenced by meta-physical beings is a load of pig-crap, and very poor form for a supposed manly member of the Hall. I think someone is a little frustrated they have been caught out.

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

As far as talking about protecting someone, I only suggested the Town blocker, that you mentioned to me, being protected. I know of other Power Roles and wouldn't mention them to you as I have no reason to fully trust you yet. So, no, I wouldn't say I think Gofraid (or anyone else who has claimed to me) has an Action, go protect him as you are just as likely to be Scum. The information you brought me yesterday that caused our truce hasn't been confirmed and neither have you. I haven't had much contact with you outside of that conversation, so your sudden turn back to suspecting me must be based on the influence of others, or possibly your own Scuminess.
Right, but who really cares about the town blocker, if he is even the town blocker? Surely the vigilante or the investigator would be much better people to protect. I think that's a very easy way to brush off the fact that you said he should protect me when you knew I wouldn't be a target. I didn't even ask you for your opinion, and to be fair I never gave the protector an opinion on who to protect anyway, but it still remains that you were trying to influence things.

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

How does someone "thinking" or "believing" something line up with being woozy? And what does being woozy mean? I'm waiting to hear back from Artemis as I didn't get this as part of her results. Seeing what she wrote to me this morning I see the word "believe" but took it as the way she was telling me, not that it was a caveat from the host. Yes, it is a concern if that was part of the results from the host, but as I don't have confirmation from her, I'm not sure exactly what to think of it. I know I am Einherjar so I would find the result annoying as I just wanted to move forward from this point. However, this is the first result we've gotten from Artemis so we have nothing to compare it to. In previous games, we've seen "thinks" or "believes" as a result of a naive investigator and from a redirection of an ascetic bwankie. Tailoring or framing usually involves a definite result, at least in my experience, or when it's my turn to host D&D. Either way, one result is not enough to base anything concrete off of and I heard no discussion of this from Artemis so I'd like to speak with her to discern if anybody is manipulating her.
Disoriented and wozzy means they are unsure of the result I would assume. Perhaps the tailoring has different words for different roles, but either way, it is suspicious that her result on you was not firm. I feel that lynching you will be the best way to clear this up, and allow us to move forward as quickly as possible.

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

But if this "thinking" or "believing" thing in her result is what's led you to believe I've messed with the results somehow, how would Artemis be implicated if I am Scum? Can't be both. If we're both Scum, why would she give a result that implicates me? :wacko: Just like your woozy boy, if Artemis confirms that his result was worded weirdly, we don't know what that means. You're very quick to jump to the conclusion that the result itself was tampered with when a protector got a woozy result on someone, which as far as I know in unprecedented. I don't see how the two situations compare.
As I mentioned, those are two alternative lines of reasoning.
A. Artemis is a true investigator and her result indicates that you are scum, based on the continuity of her result compared with that of the investigator on day one.
B. You are both scum and the result was made up.
In my opinion A is the more likely scenario, but we shall still need to watch Artemis closely, assuming the scum let her survive your death since she will no longer be useful to them with you gone.


View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Both days I have placed a vote. Both of the people I voted for ended up getting lynched.
Indeed, and you were at the head of both lynches. Lots of people find your behaviour thus far very suspect, I'm not the only one. Your methods seem incredibly out of the normal, and I'm not letting you slip away this time.

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

You and your closest ally were two people who knew who Poseidon was.
Oooh this is interesting! I didn't have a clue who Poseidon was, what makes you think I did? Trying to shift the blame to me hmm?

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

I've always said I would take a lynch before giving up any of the identities of those who have claimed to me. I stand by that if that's what needed. However, it seems the only concrete thing you have would be Artemis's odd result, which I haven't even clarified yet, so I'd like to hear more from Artemis about that. Everything else you have is based on assumptions and conjecture. I think the Scum would want me lynched because I stand as a threat that can steamroll them by confirming and coordinating the people who claimed to me. The other two people who were my backups, and knew almost everything I knew are unfortunately dead. I'm sure the Town can get by without me as long as I leave the information with a likely successor who will continue to help. But, I will not just lay down and be lynched for someone who has done nothing in this game but accuse me based on metagaming and then continue to accuse me based on a mass of assumptions. You could be Scum, or manipulated by Scum, or just over-thinking what we've seen. I suspect you are simply haunted by Shadows of the past... I don't think you'd be this bold as Scum, so I assume you are an Einherjar. It's a shame that you've convinced yourself by what are probably your own jumps in logic or other influences. If we can confirm each other, we can pool our knowledge and have a good chunk of Town Power Roles working together. I suggest we start by looking further into Artemis's result. If she's gone to you, she doesn't trust me at this point and I'm wondering why. And after all you know I've been doing for her, I'd find the lost of her trust troubling, as if she's being influences by an outside source.
As I have said, the best way to confirm you at this stage is to lynch you. Most of us feel you're acting suspiciously, that is no way to try and maintain the confidence of the town.

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#47 Rick

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

Hervi, it's not like your typical careful Einherjar you to keep talking about how to interpret last night's events, while only responding to the concerns I also raised earlier when you're accused directly by Dragmall.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

So we got a servant last night, this is good. It is also good because it tells us a lot about the votes yesterday. Let's be honest, there was hardly any case against Genaro. So why was he voted off so easily? It's a very simple thing that Steinvor knew well; Meatshield. Who was performing this meatshield? Hervi was.
As I also said earlier, it seemed as if some knew they were voting off a Servant of Loki. I'd certainly like to hear more about how Hervi became so convinced of Genaro's scumminess all of a sudden, because the reasoning he provided yesterday wasn't much.

View PostPandora, on 20 October 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Knowing now that Gerrid was scum, and looking back on her actions, I find it interesting to note that part of the reason she was suspected in the first place (by Finn and Gofraid) was her voting behaviour on day one. She was happy to hide by voting for Danr, or happy to hide by not voting at all, but she certainly was not happy to hide by placing her vote on Bergulf. And having said that she didn't want to defend anyone as nobody she thought was town had been accused, she made a lot of supportive points for Hervi at the time she voted for Dragmall - how it didn't sound like something the scum would do, it's too audacious (I'm paraphrasing) and Hervi's been a piggly-fiddler long enough to know better, that sort of thing. For someone who was known to hide, she made quite a bit of a song and dance about this. Either that or she didn't truly believe Hervi to be town.
Very interesting observations indeed. Nothing conclusive, but they certainly fit the meatshield story.

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

As far as convincing "my group" to vote for Genaro, yes I asked a couple people if they would vote along and you know exactly why I asked that.
So, you're saying you were the one leading the vote against Genaro in private? Is the 'why' sensitive information too?

Quote

And isn't it also an added bonus for the Servants of Loki that killing Gofraid has focused your suspicions on me and caused you to elevate me to your main suspect? Perhaps they thought the death of Gofraid would implicate a pig-lover who was starting to form a town block. Oink oink.
I'm afraid it's starting to add up:
1. Preventing Bergulf getting lynched on Day One.
2. The ridiculous play which was supposed to mask you were responsible for blocking Artemis (can you perhaps only tailor someone on even nights?) and had no relation whatsoever to your case against Dragmall.
3. The suspicious vote against Genaro, which suggests a meatshield strategy.
4. The vigilante, one of your closest allies, being blocked and killed last night.

That's an awful lot for the Servants of Loki to pull off without you having a hand in it.

Quote

You and your closest ally were two people who knew who Poseidon was.
Why did Dragmall have to know who Poseidon was? :wacko:  You're either a very sloppy Einherjar or you were looking for scapegoats.

Quote

The other two people who were my backups, and knew almost everything I knew are unfortunately dead.
Did you mean conveniently dead?

#48 WhiteFang

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:24 AM

Good news for us, that one of the filthy Servant of Loki had bitten the dust in yesterday's conviction! BUT, unfortunately we also lost both of our friends, Chief Mursi and Gofraid. I am also fully aware of myself that I didn't contribute much lately especially for the first few days and there is little I could do to help influence this game of life, but all I hope and wish to do is to continue to assist to help our people to win against the evil presence!

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#49 Hinckley

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:24 AM

I'm going to follow Sveinn's earlier confusing example of using spoilers to hide the reactions directly to Dragmall, so the focus can be on my theory of what is going on with Artemis's results.

Spoiler

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Disoriented and wozzy means they are unsure of the result I would assume. Perhaps the tailoring has different words for different roles, but either way, it is suspicious that her result on you was not firm. I feel that lynching you will be the best way to clear this up, and allow us to move forward as quickly as possible.

I was unaware that this was how Artemis's result came in until I saw you post it in the thread. I can understand why she would bring it to someone else if she didn't trust me, but I now wonder about her alignment. If she didn't tell me at first and told someone else instead, is she trying to blindside me and get me lynched? After I defended her and concealed her identity, I would think she would trust me to discuss an odd result. I even spoke to someone else about potentially talking to her to bring the info forward, so people wouldn't suspect the result about me. At that time I was convinced by your friend to not bring forward any of her results at all. So, it seems a trap was sprung on me. She claims she didn't want to discuss the "disoriented" part because she wanted another night's result to compare. If that's the case, why would she tell someone who hadn't been helping her for two days? It's possible that result was made up to turn suspicion on me, especially considering her reasoning for not telling me the whole story doesn't add up when you consider she told someone she had less reason to trust. I'm really regretting hinging my game on her roleclaim...

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

As I mentioned, those are two alternative lines of reasoning.
A. Artemis is a true investigator and her result indicates that you are scum, based on the continuity of her result compared with that of the investigator on day one.

But she was blocked on Night One. Is there another investigation result from that night?

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

B. You are both scum and the result was made up.

That would be a decidedly stupid result to make up.

May I offer option C. I'm Einherjar and she's Scum who is ready to be done with keeping up her lies with me and has made up the result to implicate me?

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Indeed, and you were at the head of both lynches. Lots of people find your behaviour thus far very suspect, I'm not the only one. Your methods seem incredibly out of the normal, and I'm not letting you slip away this time.

When have my methods ever seemed normal? :wacko:

So, was your suspicion against Petrus part of your "act" to see what I was up to? When you told me you thought she was Scum because the protector that targeted her reported being disoriented in the morning, how did I respond? Did I say "let's lynch her!" or did I say, "How does a woozy protector mean she's been converted? :wacko:" I know what I said, so you don't have to answer.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Oooh this is interesting! I didn't have a clue who Poseidon was, what makes you think I did? Trying to shift the blame to me hmm?

You're right. My mistake. You and your friend both guessed the identity of Artemis and your friend guessed Poseidon as well. For some reason, I associated his conversation with both of you. I'm speaking to many people behind the scenes.

View PostDragonator, on 20 October 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

As I have said, the best way to confirm you at this stage is to lynch you. Most of us feel you're acting suspiciously, that is no way to try and maintain the confidence of the town.

I agree that lynching will confirm me, but I doubt most of you think I'm asking suspiciously. Seems like only a handful of you. I've been wrong before though, and am prepared for anything. I think it's worth exploring if Artemis isn't forging the result on the orders of her Scum team to get rid of someone who was forming a strong Town block. My two closest allies die in the night and then my third closest "ally" reveals a result to someone they had just begun talking to that implicates me and conveniently is best solved by lynching me...Breaking up a strong town block in just the course of one game day would be good momentum for them...

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#50 Dragonator

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:36 AM

I would note Hervi that I am also just presenting the information I have, and am acting on it. Lynching you will clear up a lot of confusion.

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

But she was blocked on Night One. Is there another investigation result from that night?
My apologies, I meant continuity of the result from the protector on night one, who also had an uncertain result.


View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

May I offer option C. I'm Einherjar and she's Scum who is ready to be done with keeping up her lies with me and has made up the result to implicate me?
That is definitely something we will consider if you turn up town tomorrow, as I noted originally. We can't properly have that discussion until you are confirmed however, which we shall do with your death.


View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

So, was your suspicion against Petrus part of your "act" to see what I was up to? When you told me you thought she was Scum because the protector that targeted her reported being disoriented in the morning, how did I respond? Did I say "let's lynch her!" or did I say, "How does a woozy protector mean she's been converted? :wacko:" I know what I said, so you don't have to answer.
I shall answer that, my suspicion was based on the fact that the protecto had a woozy result when protecting Petrus. However I also feel that this doesn't necessarily mean Petrus is bad; after all, she has been pretty firm about you. If you turn up town however, she will be one of the first people we look at I would say.

View PostHinckley, on 20 October 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

I agree that lynching will confirm me, but I doubt most of you think I'm asking suspiciously.
We shall see when voting starts, but several people have made their opinions known, and as I see it you are the best person to lynch today. I don't see lynching anyone else having anywhere near as many benefits.

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