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Ragnarök Now - Day Two


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#26 Etzel

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostCorneliusMurdock, on 14 October 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Snotra, I deny "twisting" anything.  As I said to Danr yesterday, I merely pointed out where he was being confusing.  He himself admitted that some of the things he said didn't make a lot of sense.  I'm sorry that he was unable to convince me of his innocence but that's hardly my fault and it seems that I was not the only one unconvinced.

I feel, more than anything, that Danr picked me out rather randomly to accuse.  Which, knowing that I am loyal, only made me think he was scum more.  Snotra, if you or Eric would like to point out anything that Danr accused me of that you think wasn't adequately countered by me, go ahead and say it and I'll defend myself again.
I don't suspect you because of Danr's accusations, I just think you are amongst the group of people that voted at a suspicious time. I find it hard to trust what people say in this Hall and sometimes it is quite hard to follow what they say as well, therefore I tend to go more by vote patterns.

But you did push Danr quite a lot during the last hours of yesterday, but unfortunately my memory seems to be missing the end of that argument you had with him.

#27 Sisco

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:08 PM

Argh, there be more sneakin' aroun' at nigh', it seems. Steinvoir, dishonorably murdered in 'is sleep. Do yer killin' in the day, on an open ba'llefield I say! Well, at least we go' tha' bastard Jormund. Damn braudnefr. Two fer one isn' exactly a good trade-off, but there shou' still be a lot more of us than there are o' them. I still regret votin' fer Danr, Odin help the poor bastard. Bu' I'm unsure to where this leaves us. Bergulf, perhaps? He seemed teh be the one tha' stood ou' to me mos' besides Danr.
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#28 Palathadric

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:15 PM

View PostRick, on 14 October 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

You're not making an awful lot of sense there. :wacko:  So, if Danr were a Servant of Loki, you would have been more suspicious of Hervi? Care to elaborate?
How am I not making sense? From Hervi's interaction with Danr, I almost got the impression that Hervi was the big boss who was frustrated with his understudy and wanted to sacrifice him quickly possibly at the expense of another understudy (Bergulf). I have other reasons, but I need to find some stuff out in regards to Hervi before I pursue them. Anyway, as I said, my suspicions regarding him are somewhat allayed at present.

I would like to echo Finn in calling out Gerrid. Apart from his untimely vote yesterday, he has also said nothing worthwhile today. :sceptic:
The same goes for ol' Sigmund who I also called out yesterday and who has been similarly unhelpful in all that he's said.

My last person is ol' Wary, because he assassinated me in my former life. Nobody but scum uses such underhand tactics. :grin:
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#29 CorneliusMurdock

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:16 PM

Unfortunately, Eric, I have no control where my vote falls within the votes of others.  I thought Danr was scum.  I voted.  Perhaps instead of just voting order, you should look at the actual times the votes were placed as well to see how they were spaced out.  I think my vote was well-reasoned for the information we had at the time.  

View PostEtzel, on 14 October 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

But you did push Danr quite a lot during the last hours of yesterday, but unfortunately my memory seems to be missing the end of that argument you had with him.
Danr pushed me quite a bit as well late in the day.  Don't think it was one-sided.  For my part, I merely pointed out where I thought his statements didn't add up.  i stand by the fact that I did no "twisting" and I think that I was contributing original thought to the day.  

Honestly, I don't think I said anything else after the transcription stops.  Danr may have said something else later but I never got the chance to hear it.

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#30 Palathadric

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:26 PM

I think the main reason you are found to be suspicious, Mursi, is because Danr actually called you out, alone, amongst all the others that he could have. An argument that I think you have in your favour is that you actually seemed to think your vote through, which is not something that i can say for a lot of others. :hmpf:
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#31 Chromeknight

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:16 AM

View PostPalathadric, on 14 October 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

How am I not making sense? From Hervi's interaction with Danr, I almost got the impression that Hervi was the big boss who was frustrated with his understudy and wanted to sacrifice him quickly possibly at the expense of another understudy (Bergulf). I have other reasons, but I need to find some stuff out in regards to Hervi before I pursue them. Anyway, as I said, my suspicions regarding him are somewhat allayed at present.

So your suspicion was that all three were scum? That's a bit farfetched. I'm looking forward to more of your reasoning and stuff you find out.
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#32 Capt. Redblade

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:42 AM

View Postbadboytje88, on 14 October 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

I feel terrible for voting of Danr. Really I do! When he told us his arguments for defending me I realized chances were small we were lynching a servant of Loki. Chance was big we were going to lynch one of our own. Did I change my vote? No. Did anyone else change their vote? Not that I remember, or maybe one or two people, but not enough people changed their vote to safe Danrs life. Do I feel guilty for lynching the poor guy? Sure I do. He tried to help him and eventually got lynched doing so. But there still was a chance he was a servant of Loki. And at that point he was the best option we had. So we went for it.

If you were worried that we would end up lynching one of our own, why didn't you say something? It wasn't too late to change your vote. It wasn't too late to say something in Danr's defence. Looking over the reconstructed transcripts of the last day's events, it seems that you completely disappeared in the second half of the day. Indeed, your last recorded words are you placing your vote for Danr. And susbsequently, when votes were levied in your direction, you did nothing to answer your own accusers. What happened? Were you scared that if you unvoted Danr you would have to face those who voted for you? That if you did one but not t'other, then you would be chastised for not answering? Were you afraid to unvote Danr, knowing that the bandwagon against him might turn on you? Or did you just look at the lynch mob forming on the horizon and think to yourself, "Welp, I've sent an innocent man to the gallows. Might as well call it a day"?

I'll admit, this isn't as solid a case as I'd like it to be, but my scumdar is going mad nevertheless.

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#33 Fugazi

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:53 AM

Hmm... I can't say I'm surprised that Steinvoir was the target of a killer last night, given his experience. He has always been a fearsome warrior. But the guts! Steinvoir could have been the target of any number of night visitors, so it was quite daring to kill him off on the very first night. Not that it really helps us figuring out who did it.

View PostPandora, on 14 October 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Yeah, no scum would ever dream of leading a bandwagon. Ever. Because everyone knows, don't they, that no scum would ever dare draw such attention to themself that way. More wine? Or is it 'Mead in front of me' in this context?
I certainly wouldn't put it past scum to lead a bandwagon, especially considering Jormund's words yesterday, replying to Danr:

Quote

Like you said, the scum are probably hiding within the bandwagon, maybe one or two who have split off and accused other people. It's these reactions that we will be looking at tomorrow.
This was said when most of the votes were already in, therefore after most or all scum had voted (or decided not to :look:). This certainly doesn't disprove that scum were actually hiding within the bandwagon, but it also doesn't disprove that some may have been leading the lynch or follow on the heels of the leaders.

But more importantly, at no moment did Jormund consider that there were other options yesterday but to lynch either Danr or Bergulf. For instance:

Quote

I would like to add that they both might be town, and they're squabbling while the scum are taking advantage of all this confusion. But of course, what choice do we have? This is the only way to get answers, and I see no better options at the moment.

The question is, which one to vote for? As others have pointed out, Danr could be innocent accidentally defending Bergulf who is a follower of Loki, as we've seen just recently in one of the legends. Conversely, Danr could be scum trying to to look innocent by defending the innocent Bergulf. Maybe he had expected us to lynch Bergulf anyway, and then he would come up as looking innocent after all was said and done.

They could both be scum, with Bergulf trying to distance himself from Danr. We take a chance either way, but I would like to wait to see if anything comes up before I place my vote. I don't feel certain about either of them, but what choice do we have?
Were Bergulf scum, I think Jormund would at least hinted that we should consider other options and not focus everything on those two. Or pushed more strongly for Danr right from the beginning. In retrospect it looks to me like Jormund was setting the table for both Bergulf and Danr to be lynched, in no particular order. So while I don't feel much wiser than yesterday, I'm still very unconvinced that Bergulf could be a follower of Loki.
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#34 Capt. Redblade

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:59 AM

View PostCapt. Redblade, on 15 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

I'll admit, this isn't as solid a case as I'd like it to be, but my scumdar is going mad nevertheless.
My word, Carl must be very hungover. He's so out of it he's forgotten his proper syntax. :look:

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#35 TinyPiesRUs

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:02 AM

The day wore on and the hubbub began to die down. A raven had just returned to Valhalla bearing a message. Harald read it aloud:

Quote

Dear Ragnar,

I have not found Loki yet. I have ran into a spot of bother with the mountain giants. Thor has come to help - he just bashed one of the giant's skulls in. Wish you were here, you'd love it.

XOXO
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P.S. I trust the einherjar have been behaving themselves in my absence. I know how much they love their routines, I hope none of them have been losing their heads over it.

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"You may now vote," he said.
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You may now vote. With 22 players remaining, a majority of 12 is required to lynch. 48 hours remain in the day.

#36 Hinckley

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:20 AM

So, I have conferred with my piggies and they say I should bring this info forward to everyone.

Yesterday, at a very early stage in the day someone came to me and roleclaimed:

Artemis FOUL?

Artemis: Hey Hervi. I have an Action. I trust you. I need help deciding who to target.

Hervi: How does the Action work?

Artemis: I target two people and then can see if their affiliations match, but I won't know what affiliation they are.

Hervi: Want to kiss a piggy?

Artemis: Of course! (Artemis begins to make out with the pig)

Hervi: (aside) Odd that the role has to target two people, me thinks. Perhaps this person is worried that if they are tracked they'll be seen targeting two people which would normally mean they are a bus driver. Or maybe this person is actually a Servant of Loki and the role actually switches two people's affiliation as some sort of framer. Otherwise, I hope if it's true, this isn't our only investigator. It sounds rather convoluted... :sceptic:

Artemis: Nice pig. Thanks. Who should I target?

Hervi: Can you target yourself?

Artmeis: I'll ask. La la la la la (wanders off to ask)

Hervi: (aside) Why wouldn't this person have thought of that already? If I had been given that role I would've asked for that clarification right away.

Artemis: Yes, I can target myself.

Hervi: Well then target yourself and someone else and it will work just like a regular investigator.

Artemis: OK, who else should I target?

Hervi: (Aside) Me, duh. Why would this person even think twice about that? How can Artemis trust me without verifying first? (back to Artemis) Who do you want to target?

Artemis: I don't know.

Hervi: (aside) :wacko: (back to Artemis) Well, why don't you target yourself and Dionysus? Dionysus was acting very out of character.

Artemis: OK, I will. (exeunt Artemis)

Hervi: I sincerely hope Artemis is targeting me and itself. That is what I would expect anyone to do who wants to form a Town block.

Scene Two

Artemis: I was unsuccessful.

End. Piggies squeal for the playwright and actor, Hervi pig-lover Pudding-head.

Thank you Piggies! Oink oink Oink! I love you too. :wub_drool: Nice piggies.

Artemis's story seems convenient. It's one of those roles that can be claimed by someone who knows both sides and even if Artemis can target two people, it's a convenient story in case they're tracked. Why else would someone have two targets? Bus driver? Some weird sort of framer where it switches the reading?? Most worrying is how much help Artemis was expecting with the role. Why would anyone rely on someone else so much on Day One? People have different tactics, some people do need help and perhaps these things don't necessarily mean that Artemis is foul. :sceptic:

Enter Pernilla and some piggies with a placard that reads "Act Two".

What's this? I thought the play was over. Oink oink oink? Oink oink OINK?? Oink oink. Pernilla says we've learned more since the first act was written, so now it's a two act play.

Act Two

Artemis: I was out of my costume already, what's the deal?

Hervi: (aside) Day Two, for reasons I do not want to reveal, Artemis seems more helpful and definitely more Townie to me. Doesn't mean it is, of course!

Artemis: Hi, Pig-boy. Demeter came to me and said "A little birdie told me you were Town."

Hervi: So, Demeter is also an investigator? :look:

Artemis: Would there be two investigators? Why?

Hervi: (aside) I wish there was another character for me to talk to so I didn't have to keep relying on asides. It's hard to use asides without iambic pentameter. Anyway, why is Artemis telling me Demeter's name? That's rather sloppy Mafia play. Protect the identities of people with Power Roles, people. Come on!!

(Enter Poseidon)

Poseidon: I am wise and I appear when needed. Let me help conlude this.

Hervi: Poseidon ex maquina...

Poseidon: Silence, pig boy! Let us consider the possibilities of this situation:
-Both presumed investigators tell the truth, and the game is oddly balanced. Considering the complexity of his action, I doubt that (Artemis) would be naive. On the other hand, there's always the chance that the second investigator (Demeter) has a modifier.

Hervi: Are there two Scum factions??? Maybe Town would need two investigators. Maybe the second one (Demeter) is the Scum role cop, pulling a "ScumbaRadish" nom nom nom.

Poseidon: -Both are scum, and the second is covering up for the first. Probably very risky, because it's easy to find out whether there is an authentic Town investigator in the game. It's called putting all your scum in the same basket!

Hervi: Very possible. Sloppy Scum play, but definitely possible...

Poseidon: -(Artemis) is scum, the second investigator (Demeter) is Town. Unlikely, unless (Artemis) is the Godfather and immune to investigations, or that the second investigator is insane/naive.

Hervi: Don't forget the framer/tailor. Artemis could've been tailored by another Servant of Loki. Servants? Why would they want to be servants? Stupid Servants...

Poseidon: -(Artemis) is Town, the second investigator (Demeter) is scum. It could be a way for the latter to infiltrate the Town.

Hervi: Yes, the "ScumbaRadish" nom nom nom.

Poseidon: There are other possibilities, puny human!

Hervi: Six inches is average.

Pernilla: Oink.

Poseidon: Before discussing the other possibilities, perhaps it is time to gauge public opinion. I ordain thee to write a play.

Hervi: I'll just write a second act on the one I already wrote.

Poseidon: Fair enough! If public opinion is gathered and neither Demeter nor Artemis seem like likely lynch candidates, do you have anything else to go on?

Hervi: Yes, actually! Steinvoir Meatshield told me and some others something very interesting about Hades...

(Flashback) Hervi: Doodly doodly oodly doodly oodly doodly oodly doodly...

Poseidon: What is this?

Hervi: Special falshback effects. Doodly doodly oodly doodly oodly doodly oodly doodly...

Steinvoir: Hades has claimed to be a neutral!

Hervi: Thanks!

The real end this time.

So, Hades has claimed neutral according to Steinvoir Meatshield. Others were around when he claimed this to me. We were in a pub. So why would there be a neutral out there? A Serial Killer? We only saw two kills. Did our vigilante stay home and it was a serial killer who slayed Jormund? If there is no serial killer, why would there be a neutral? A cult? The words of the Day One opening speak of a Cultist at one point. Could there be a cult among us? Shall we rid ourselves of Hades to be sure? If there is a cult, that would make sense why Artemis's role works the way it does and why we would have two types of investigators!!!!!

If a majority of us find any of these three aliases suspicious, I will reveal their identity. But, this gives us a lot to discuss. It'd be great if we had two investigators! Previous games...of life...with two investigators have been a cinch for the Einherjar! :grin:

Oink Oink! Come piggies! It's kissy time! :wub_drool:

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#37 CallMePie

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:02 AM

:wacko: That's....odd. The Artemis/Demeter issue's a bit of a mess. Like you say, if having a cult gives credibility to Artemis' role, the most sensible course of action is to lynch Hades. Even if he is just neutral rather than a cultist, he's likelier to hinder than help us. If there's a chance of taking out a semi-scum and clearing up this investigator issue, I say we take it.
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#38 Hinckley

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:16 AM

View PostCallMePie, on 15 October 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

:wacko: That's....odd. The Artemis/Demeter issue's a bit of a mess. Like you say, if having a cult gives credibility to Artemis' role, the most sensible course of action is to lynch Hades. Even if he is just neutral rather than a cultist, he's likelier to hinder than help us. If there's a chance of taking out a semi-scum and clearing up this investigator issue, I say we take it.

Trust me, I know it's a mess. I've been bouncing it around in my head quite a bit, with the help of Poseidon. I agree with the idea to lynch Hades, but I'll only reveal it if others agree. If there's a cult, we need to stop it before it steamrolls us... From a great ancient text called Mafiawiki: "If the Cult is not exterminated within the first two game Days, they almost inevitably win."

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#39 CorneliusMurdock

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:37 AM

I don't know about the whole investigator mash-up, dude, but neutrals are always trouble.  Could be serial killer, could be cult.  Either way, bad news.  If they're not truly with us, why should we let them live to work against us?

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#40 Captain Genaro

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:38 AM

View PostPalathadric, on 14 October 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

I would like to echo Finn in calling out Gerrid. Apart from his untimely vote yesterday, he has also said nothing worthwhile today. :sceptic:

First off I’m a woman. :hmpf:

I understand why my vote for Danr, especially considering that it appears that I was following the crowd could seem scum-like so allow me to explain. My vote was originally for Wilhelm because I wanted him to speak up and voting for him seemed to send the strongest message. Once I realized that he was gone, I decided to vote for Danr. Danr was already condemned, voting for someone else would have been foolish, and I was under the impression that Odin required all of us to vote each day. Had I realized that Odin never made such a rule, I would never have voted for Danr.

I’m keeping my mouth shut because I have nothing productive to add to our conversation. I didn’t learn anything last night. I do have some ideas as to who is innocent but as none of them have been accused, I don’t see any reason to defend them.


View PostCallMePie, on 15 October 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

If there's a chance of taking out a semi-scum and clearing up this investigator issue, I say we take it.

I must agree. It seems to me that Hades is more of a liability than an asset. If there is a cult then we have a good shot at getting one of their members. If he is a neutral then we're not worse off.

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#41 Scouty

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:40 AM

View PostCorneliusMurdock, on 15 October 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

I don't know about the whole investigator mash-up, dude, but neutrals are always trouble.  Could be serial killer, could be cult.  Either way, bad news.  If they're not truly with us, why should we let them live to work against us?
I agree with the neutral, but that's mainly from recent experience of being screwed by one. The multiple-investigators is going to take some more thought...I wouldn't be surprised if one of them was lying...that's just... :wacko: For now I'm more interested in the neutral, though...
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#42 Darkdragon

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:43 AM

That's a really obscure roleclaim from Artemis. If it's true, then could it be she is part of a cult that has  a conversion that will kill if they try to convert scum? That seems like the biggest reason for this kind of investigation, since it doesn't tell if people are scum or not it makes it pretty weak for any other use.

The seeming reluctance to target herself makes me think that if she is neutral then she would know all the other neutrals and wouldn't want to waste a night on that.

#43 Hinckley

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:44 AM

View PostScouty, on 15 October 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

I agree with the neutral, but that's mainly from recent experience of being screwed by one. The multiple-investigators is going to take some more thought...I wouldn't be surprised if one of them was lying...that's just... :wacko: For now I'm more interested in the neutral, though...

Do you mean screwed as in how people screw pigs?

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#44 Scouty

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:48 AM

View PostHinckley, on 15 October 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

Do you mean screwed as in how people screw pigs?
In that way and in others.
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#45 Capt. Redblade

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:02 AM

View PostCaptain Genaro, on 15 October 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

It seems to me that Hades is more of a liability than an asset. If there is a cult then we have a good shot at getting one of their members. If he is a neutral then we're not worse off.

Carl thirds this notion. A neutral could be a potential danger to us, and, verily, don't we already have enough problems?


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#46 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:13 AM

Neutrals are never good but that does not always mean they are useless, our main objective is to eliminate the servants of Loki, If a neutral stands in our way, then we take them down, otherwise let us not lose our perspective.

I'm am also confused as to why we would have two individuals that are able to see into the hearts of our fellow warriors and learn their allegiance. This is too good to be true in my book, so I highly doubt that they are both on our side. If Artemis is not lying about his/her action and if we assume their is no secondary party with a large number of members, I am of the mind that he/she is of the loyal Einherjar. It does not seem sensible to me, for a servant of Loki to make up such a complex role, when they could simply claim to be a plain "investigator". Furthermore if Artemis is a servant of Loki, why claim to be an investigator, when the chances are high that their is a Einherjar counter-part that could easily contest their claim?

For now I am more suspicious of Demeter, with a slight curiosity about Hades as well.

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#47 Hinckley

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 04:28 AM

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 15 October 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

It does not seem sensible to me, for a servant of Loki to make up such a complex role, when they could simply claim to be a plain "investigator". Furthermore if Artemis is a servant of Loki, why claim to be an investigator, when the chances are high that their is a Einherjar counter-part that could easily contest their claim?

I've thought of these things as well, but that's my concern about there being two targets. This could be a way to explain why she (Artemis) might be seen targeting two people. Is she a bus driver? Is she up to something else when she's targeting two people? I agree with your analysis, but there are other reasons to make up an elaborate undprecedented role. That tactic is not unprecedented.

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#48 Chromeknight

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:04 AM

Why would someone claim to be neutral? I can't see it buying anything other than suspicion. Which it has.
So. Is Hades standing by his claim? Is he going to make it public before Hervi reveals it? Or had Steinvoir got the wrong end of something? Is this perhaps why he was killed off?

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#49 fhomess

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:47 AM

I think that the two investigators seem a bit sketchy but I would hesitate to reveal either name publicly until we have a better way to validate which one is potentially telling the truth and which one is potentially lying.  Perhaps someone with two good eyes can keep one on each of them.

Hades claiming neutral, is to me, nothing but trouble.  We have no guarantee of his allegiance against the Servants of Loki.

#50 Scubacarrot

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:18 AM

I say we lynch Hades. I think it's possible both investigators tell the truth, and would not want to risk lynching one. :sceptic:

And just pointing it out, Pigboy, the reference you are giving us is not entirely accurate, as that mostly refers to situations with much less people.

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