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L�Administrateur Rouge - a two decked brig


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38 replies to this topic  – Started by Legeaux , Jan 02 2007 05:02 AM

#1 Legeaux

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 05:02 AM

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Ahoy,

Since the settlement of Port Brique in 1801, there has been a wide variety of vessels calling it home. But no two deckers. Until now.

Although wide and ungainly, brig-rigged L�Administrateur Rouge packs a broadside seldom matched, while her ample cabins make her a suitable alternative to the aging Mis�rable as the flagship of the French Colony.

Reportedly, an experimental Dutch vessel, captured in the Straights de Torres in December 1806, the L�Administrateur Rouge now under the command of the colony�s second best captain, patrols the waters around Port Brique administering the law of revolutionary France (hence L�Administrateur Rouge).

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I have toyed with the idea of building a two decker for a while, but haven�t had the time, or the willingness to sacrifice on of my larger vessels for the hull. Over Christmas, I got the old brig Madame Thenardier out of storage, intending to rebuild her as a new brig, but I decided instead to use the Madame�s hull to experiment with some ideas I�d had for building a two decker, and particularly building a double gallery. The result is the L�Administrateur Rouge.

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The L�Administrateur Rouge is not by any means a serious vessel, but it has allowed me to toy with cross sections appropriate for a two decker. The deck spacing works out quite well, and while the join of the angled gallery to the cabin betrays my lack of red inverse tall slopes somewhat, I think it works reasonably well.

The rig is straight from the old Madame, but with extra mast sections added. (What were once the mainmasts are now the topmasts (with new fighting tops added), what were once the courses are now the tops�ls and so on). The bowsprit is new, and uses a 4+ pirates mast section along with a column of 2x2 round bricks, to achieve a reasonable length. You'll note the use of small ratlines to the fore and main tops.

Looking at the L�Administrateur Rouge, I can imagine it being two or three hull sections longer, with the current foremast becoming the main, the mizzen where the mainmast is now, and a foremast added. Maintaining the current gun spacing, means that each extra hull section would yield eight extra guns� this would mean that a four centre section version of the L�Administrateur Rouge would be a 40 gun ship!

More pics are at brickshelf, if anyone is intereste: http://www.brickshel...ry.cgi?f=224506

Any feedback would be most welcome.
Cheers

Richie Dulin
CO Legeaux

#2 Aaron Morse

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 05:27 AM

Looks good.  I like the fence parts used for windows.  Seems like there been a sudden increase in two deckers being constructed. It might be a shade on the stubby side but the over look is very good!
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#3 ZCerberus

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 07:08 AM

A yes, very nice, though as you said, a bit stuby.  

I do like how it slopes out and then back in, and I also like the placement of the guns facing forward (runners are in front, chasers are in back?) and a nice chain connected anchor(s).  The windows and the double cabin is also very nice.  I hat having to use white latticed windows after the rest of the ship is all red and black, so good move there!

Anywho, red, black and dark gray has become rather popular as a color scheme lately, but I really like the colors together on ships, so no complaint here!  I am not a huge fan of the light grey flooring though.  But if that was all you had, so be it!

If it were longer, that would help with the stubiness of which you refer, but I would fear that the masts would not be tall enough for a two decker.  The top sails get VERY small when using a mid piece and a single bow spirit piece, so if you decided to make her longer, consider also making her taller in the mast department for some larger sails!  I am not sure how I feel about the large breaster, armless figure head... it is okay, but a little strange!

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#4 Legeaux

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 11:02 AM

View PostAaron Morse, on Jan 2 2007, 05:27 AM, said:

Looks good.  I like the fence parts used for windows.

I've used it a few times before... they're good for some colour variation, and also some size variation over the 4x3 lattice windows. (And credit where credit's due: I picked up the technique from Kevin Hall of Andrastavia fame.)

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Seems like there been a sudden increase in two deckers being constructed. It might be a shade on the stubby side but the over look is very good!

A shade on the stubby side?   :-D Absolutely! As I said, this isn't a serious vessel.

As for the sudden increase in two deckers? Well, it seems there is a bit of an arms race going on.  ;-)
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#5 Legeaux

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 11:23 AM

View PostZCerberus, on Jan 2 2007, 07:08 AM, said:

A yes, very nice, though as you said, a bit stuby.  

I do like how it slopes out and then back in, and I also like the placement of the guns facing forward (runners are in front, chasers are in back?)

Most references I've seen are that they are called chasers (or 'chase guns'), though often more fully as bow chasers and stern chasers (or after chasers).


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and a nice chain connected anchor(s).
Correct mounting of the anchors is often overlooked (who am I to comment though, this brig has the anchors hooked on the rigging! :-D). In my last few vessels I've tried to incorporate decent catheads... these are the nicest yet, but a bit on the fragile side.

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The windows and the double cabin is also very nice.  I hat having to use white latticed windows after the rest of the ship is all red and black, so good move there!

Indeed. Don't forget that there's brown lattice windows too, and yellow and green (iirc) - though the latter are quite rare. The fences also give a larger window, which can be useful.

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Anywho, red, black and dark gray has become rather popular as a color scheme lately, but I really like the colors together on ships, so no complaint here!  I am not a huge fan of the light grey flooring though.  But if that was all you had, so be it!

If it were longer, that would help with the stubiness of which you refer, but I would fear that the masts would not be tall enough for a two decker.

I don't think I'll be stretching L'Administrateur Rouge - it really is just an experimental vessel, but it is interesting to speculate.

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The top sails get VERY small when using a mid piece and a single bow spirit piece, so if you decided to make her longer, consider also making her taller in the mast department for some larger sails!  I am not sure how I feel about the large breaster, armless figure head... it is okay, but a little stronge!

By 'top sails' do you mean tops'ls or the royals that are the uppermost on L'Administrateur Rouge?

Don't forget there would be courses below the tops'ls. The sails on L'Administrateur Rouge are stiffened calico made on templates I made from Lego sails... iirc the topgallants are the the same size as the BSB tops'ls and the tops'ls are the BSB courses ( I made them a couple of years ago, and don't have them handy to check).

In any case though, L'Administrateur Rouge  is a substantial vessel, and she would need greater sail area than I've given her so far.... out of interest, has anyone seen a Lego vessel with studding sails? That might be worth trying...

As for the figure head? Well, what can I say?  8-| It's a carryover from the old Madame, and one that I use on most of my sailing vessels. I have used an armed version, but it's a little bigger.
Cheers

Richie Dulin
CO Legeaux

#6 Norro

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 01:06 PM

That is one imposing ship. I like it and can't wait to see a fully proportioned version! Great work!

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#7 El Bucanero

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 01:14 PM

Well, it looks quite...Fat....It's is a nice ship, but too short for it's height, and since when do brigs have 2 decks?? The sails also look  a bit too high... But it's a experimental ship so it's good!

#8 Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 01:43 PM

Aye, I'm with Mr. Tiber on that :)

Very nice, though! I once tried building a two-decker and failed miserably, so I know how complex the construction is. Very well done, all around!

#9 Legeaux

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 02:01 PM

View PostMr Tiber, on Jan 2 2007, 01:14 PM, said:

Well, it looks quite...Fat....It's is a nice ship, but too short for it's height, and since when do brigs have 2 decks?? The sails also look  a bit too high... But it's a experimental ship so it's good!
The sails probably look a bit high, because she's missing her courses - tops'ls, t'gallants and royals, though not uncommon for moderate winds, tend to look a bit too high.

No doubt somewhere there is some evidence for an age of sail a two decked brig... I haven't come across any yet, though. ;-)

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That is one imposing ship. I like it and can't wait to see a fully proportioned version! Great work!

While the length is the obvious issue, a properly scaled two decker will also need to be wider

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Very nice, though! I once tried building a two-decker and failed miserably, so I know how complex the construction is. Very well done, all around!

One of the things to address is that a two decker is not simply a single decker with an extra deck laid on top, and that the lower deck gun ports of a two decker should be considerably *lower* than the gun ports of a single decker of a similar length.

Historically, frigates could sometimes take on two decked men-o-war in heavy seas because the ships of the line couldn't open their lower gunports (particularly if the frigate was to leeward).
Cheers

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#10 ZCerberus

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 03:45 PM

View PostLegeaux, on Jan 2 2007, 05:23 AM, said:

By 'top sails' do you mean tops'ls or the royals that are the uppermost on L'Administrateur Rouge?

I said 'top sails' and not 'topsails'  so I meant the sails on the top.  Some people don't know there are topsails and topgallant sails, so moving on to royals and skysails would be even more confusing.  I would consider the sails I am speaking of to be a topgallant sail, as it is above the topsail, which is above the main sail.  

I see you are considering the Brig to have topsails, topgallant sails, and royals, because you are saying you are missing the mainsials (courses) which would be the lowest sail as there is no good way to attach them at this point, hence making the sail I am refering to a royal.

Anyhow, that sail is NOT a LEGO template, and to me it just seems too small.  I am not big on realism in LEGO ships or anything (as I made a 'Xeballey'... a two deck Xebec that some said was really a galley), or even on using the right terminology all the time, but  I will remeber from now on that Legeaux knows the difference in sails...

Still, even if they are roylas, I still think they might be a little undersized.  If there were a large main sail on the bottom, you would have to increase the size of the masts as I had mentioned anyways.  

Ultimately to me, since it is LEGO... I prefer sail plans that look good as opposed to ones that are real, The Skull's Eye Schooner certaily didn't use a real sail plan, (and most certinaly was NOT a schooner) and I think it looks fantastic, so I shoot for form over function when evaluating these ships!

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#11 Asuka

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 05:14 PM

This is a very beautiful ship and its almost perfect proportions add in some nice legoish feeling. Superb!  :'-)

#12 oDDerFisken

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 07:07 PM

Thats a very nice ship i think. I really like it. But i miss some pictures from under deck and the cabin. That would be nice (thats a hint for you to go fetch me some more pics ;-) )

#13 Legeaux

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:43 AM

View PostZCerberus, on Jan 2 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

I said 'top sails' and not 'topsails'  so I meant the sails on the top.  Some people don't know there are topsails and topgallant sails, so moving on to royals and skysails would be even more confusing.  I would consider the sails I am speaking of to be a topgallant sail, as it is above the topsail, which is above the main sail.  

I see you are considering the Brig to have topsails, topgallant sails, and royals, because you are saying you are missing the mainsials (courses) which would be the lowest sail as there is no good way to attach them at this point, hence making the sail I am refering to a royal.

Perhaps using the term "uppermost sail" or "topmost sail" would be a reasonable way to avoid confusion?

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Anyhow, that sail is NOT a LEGO template, and to me it just seems too small.  I am not big on realism in LEGO ships or anything (as I made a 'Xeballey'... a two deck Xebec that some said was really a galley), or even on using the right terminology all the time, but  I will remeber from now on that Legeaux knows the difference in sails...

Still, even if they are roylas, I still think they might be a little undersized.  If there were a large main sail on the bottom, you would have to increase the size of the masts as I had mentioned anyways.

I think there is plenty of space for fore and main courses on the existing masts, but I guess it's only academic.

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Ultimately to me, since it is LEGO... I prefer sail plans that look good as opposed to ones that are real, The Skull's Eye Schooner certaily didn't use a real sail plan, (and most certinaly was NOT a schooner) and I think it looks fantastic, so I shoot for form over function when evaluating these ships!

Really? I find the main tops'l on the SES to be far to big in proportion to the other sails, and rigged far too close to the masthead to be realistic or practical. But, well, I guess I like to strike a balance between form and function (and so often, I think that if you get the function right, then the form looks 'right' too).

View PostoDDerFisken, on Jan 2 2007, 07:07 PM, said:

Thats a very nice ship i think. I really like it. But i miss some pictures from under deck and the cabin. That would be nice (thats a hint for you to go fetch me some more pics ;-) )

That might be a hint for me to go and build some below decks detail, too! :-D

At the moment, L'Administrateur Rouge is very empty below decks - a couple of platforms to hold the guns, and a large empty space where the cabins are. There are two masts and a substantial sternpost to support the rig and the decks, though.

The whole gallery does fold down though, so there is good access for adding detail... hmmm, maybe a project for the weekend. ;-)
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CO Legeaux

#14 SkaForHire

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 02:51 AM

I only have a moment, so i didnt get to read all the comments yet... but

Again, an awesome ship from you! At first when I read that this was "not a serious ship" i was like, what the heck! this thing is awesome... then I saw the pictures in the gallery and decided you are right, it needs one or two more centers and I think this would be one of the most feasible 2 deckers I have seen. Great job, want to comment more, will be back to do so!
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#15 Mister Phes

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 05:52 AM

Fat you lot say?

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Hmmmm...  Yes, I'll agree in profile LAdministrateur Rouge looks a bit fat, like its short of a hull piece.  The ship itself looks well designed, very sturdy, very dangerous!  Although the colour wouldn't be very helpful when attempting to camouflage into the horizon, but perhaps this ship is powerful enough not to rely on stealth tactics.

#16 Legeaux

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 06:03 AM

View PostMister Phes, on Jan 4 2007, 05:52 AM, said:

Fat you lot say?

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Hmmmm...  Yes, I'll agree in profile LAdministrateur Rouge looks a bit fat, like its short of a hull piece.  The ship itself looks well designed, very sturdy, very dangerous!

LAdministrateur Rouge is one of the most sturdy vessels I've built, but the one weak point is the gallery... which, I guess, is just like the real ones!

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Although the colour wouldn't be very helpful when attempting to camouflage into the horizon, but perhaps this ship is powerful enough not to rely on stealth tactics.

:-D

(For those that don't get Mister Phes's joke: Hull colour wasn't much of a consideration for 'stealth' until the steam age, and not generally a serious consideration until the 20th century!)
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#17 Bonaparte

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 07:43 PM

I wouldn't call this "not a serious vessel".
It is not easy to have 2 gundecks on such a small ship (or any ship), but you succeed to make this look good.
Once you have build as many ships like you did, I think you raise your standard maybe too high.
I have seen many less serious ships than this one  :-D

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#18 ghoulrealm

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 08:56 PM

Excellent use of slopes throughout the ship and especially at the stern!
I for one like the length as is, although I would lower all the the sails to counteract the height to length ratio.

#19 ZCerberus

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 09:06 PM

View Postghoulrealm, on Jan 9 2007, 02:56 PM, said:

I would lower all the the sails to counteract the height to length ratio.


He said the ship is missing its courses... meaning it is missing its bottom most sail on each mast.  They would be the largest (main) sails on the ship.  I think you wouldn't have this complaint if there were courses there!

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#20 Imperator Viktor Napoleon

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 10:59 PM

Make it slightly longer (2 hull segs) and add a third mast and you will have one of the best. (Not that it isn't already).  I realize of course that you had a part constraint, those restrictions are terrible aren't they?.

I will post an MS paint mod of your pic to show what might be improved.

#21 Captain Roger

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 11:40 PM

is a great red galleon...congrats guy
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#22 ghoulrealm

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 01:07 AM

View PostZCerberus, on Jan 9 2007, 03:06 PM, said:

He said the ship is missing its courses... meaning it is missing its bottom most sail on each mast.  They would be the largest (main) sails on the ship.  I think you wouldn't have this complaint if there were courses there!
I wouldn't add any sails.  I would lower the mast, or all the sails to a yardarm lower and not have a royal yard.

#23 Legeaux

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 03:14 AM

View Postghoulrealm, on Jan 9 2007, 08:56 PM, said:

Excellent use of slopes throughout the ship and especially at the stern!
I for one like the length as is, although I would lower all the the sails to counteract the height to length ratio.

If anything, I'd like to make the masts taller. Particularly if she was rebuilt as a ship, I'd want a bit more height on the mainmast.



View PostImperator Viktor Napoleon, on Jan 9 2007, 10:59 PM, said:

Make it slightly longer (2 hull segs) and add a third mast and you will have one of the best. (Not that it isn't already).  I realize of course that you had a part constraint, those restrictions are terrible aren't they?.

I will post an MS paint mod of your pic to show what might be improved.

Thanks! I'd like to see that. (If you could downsize what is now the mainmast when it becomes the mizzenmast, that would be a nice touch too).
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#24 Imperator Viktor Napoleon

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 09:07 PM

View PostLegeaux, on Jan 9 2007, 07:14 PM, said:

If anything, I'd like to make the masts taller. Particularly if she was rebuilt as a ship, I'd want a bit more height on the mainmast.
Thanks! I'd like to see that. (If you could downsize what is now the mainmast when it becomes the mizzenmast, that would be a nice touch too).

Here you go.

I would also recommend the addition of a quarterdeck to make the drop between the poop and maindecks more aesectically appealing and also more in keeping with tradition.

On the topic of masts, two jibs, three foresails, three mainsails, and two mizzen sails would be sufficient. (Just look at the masts and spars that I painted to see what goes where).

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#25 El Bucanero

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 09:36 PM

Egad!!! That looks great! A massive French Manowar what could easily blow all her enemies away!!! Mr Legeaux, I strongly reccomend you to lenghten this ship with 2 mid sections... That's awesome Imperator!!




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