69 replies to this topic

[LRDark]

mrklaw, on 07 May 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Isn't that almost the entire point of cuusoo though? To support niche sets that appeal to a relatively small audience. Enough to justify a small production run but not a full line like their other sets.

If you don't like it, carry on supporting the projects you do like, and perhaps spread the word to help get support - like those existing supported projects have.

I wouldn't say the entire point of Cuusoo is to create one-shot niche projects. I would say that it is to create projects that Lego wouldn't already come to the conclusion that some large majority of people want, which isn't limited to just small fanbases (compared to Star Wars and Tolkien). Licensed sets are a third of potential listings, along with original sets and new piece elements. While I understand why the licensed sets reach the 10k marker before others, that doesn't mean I can't become bored with it. As I've said, I'm happy for the creators, and I'm happy for the fans; I truly mean that. I can't see any reason why it shouldn't've hit 10k. I'm glad they get the chance to be reviewed. But I still can't help but express my disappointment on the lack of original ideas meeting the mark. I've already voted for the ones that I've liked on Cuusoo, regardless of whether I'd buy the set or not. No matter how good the Firefly MOC is, I still can't get excited for something I care nothing about, just like Eve or Minecraft. To me, they're not classics like Back to the Future or Zelda. Perhaps one day they will be, and perhaps some already are viewed that way, but at the moment, I don't see them as such. To me, it's just another My Little Pony MOC that reached 10k, without the annoying fanbase. I can still announce my disinterest.

Edited by LRDark, 07 May 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[fred67]

LRDark, on 07 May 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

I've already voted for the ones that I've liked on Cuusoo, regardless of whether I'd buy the set or not.

That's not cool, IMO.  If you wouldn't buy it, don't vote for it.  Do you really enter "0" in the number of sets you'd be willing to buy?

[LRDark]

fred67, on 07 May 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

That's not cool, IMO.  If you wouldn't buy it, don't vote for it.  Do you really enter "0" in the number of sets you'd be willing to buy?

How about if I like it, I should vote for it? There are some really nice ideas that I can't see myself buying that I choose to vote for because the creator did a really swell job presenting it, and there are some that I would buy that I don't vote for. I'm not going to stop because you don't like it, and I don't feel it's dishonest. I price things and number things as if I am a collector of that particular theme, such as the Western Town. I'm not going to buy it, but I certainly want to give it the chance to be reviewed, as I think it's a wonderful concept. If it's something I wouldn't necessarily want to purchase, I put in "1," because I just might buy it for me or someone else one day.

Edited by LRDark, 07 May 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[Meatman]

fred67, on 07 May 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

That's not cool, IMO.  If you wouldn't buy it, don't vote for it.  Do you really enter "0" in the number of sets you'd be willing to buy?

Let's be realistic though, how many fan boys that have helped some of these projects hit the 10k supports are actually going to buy them? Probably very few.

LRDark, on 07 May 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

How about if I like it, I should vote for it? There are some really nice ideas that I can't see myself buying that I choose to vote for because the creator did a really swell job presenting it, and there are some that I would buy that I don't vote for. I'm not going to stop because you don't like it, and I don't feel it's dishonest. I price things and number things as if I was a collector of that particular theme, such as the Western Town. I'm not going to buy it, but I certainly want to give it the chance to be reviewed, as I think it's a wonderful concept. If it's something I wouldn't necessarily want to purchase, I put in "1," because I just might buy it for me or someone else one day.

That was very well put. There are a lot of models on Cuusoo that are very well done and deserve a shot with the Review. I have voted for some exceptional models that I may or may not buy, but they were certainly worthy of a Support just for the time and dedication that the creator put into them because I know that many people would buy them who have no clue what Cuusoo even is. Then you have Models on there that are just "ideas" and not even models at all that do very well because of a fanbase.

For example, I am a Huge Legend of Zelda fan, but I have never bought any of the TLOZ toys over the years because I only have interest in the game. Now if TLOZ were to come out in Lego form, I would most certainly buy them because I am into Lego, but I highly doubt that most TLOZ fans that supported are actually interested in buying the Lego toys if they actually happen more so than "Supporting" was just the right thing to do.

[meyerc13]

fred67, on 07 May 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I agree it's not exactly the kind of blockbuster that TLG would want to take a shot on

And Hayabusa was?  Or Shinkai 6500?  I think Firefly has a lot more fans than either of those two, and they got made.  Yes, the bar was lower, but they were made and I'm sure projected sales on those is much lower than projected sales would be on this model.

I'm not getting my hopes up after the Winchester debacle, but I don't think that popularity or success of the show should be the factors that would kill this, because clearly those weren't taken into account with those earlier models that LEGO did in fact produce.

[Omicron]

Meatman, on 07 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

but I highly doubt that most TLOZ fans that supported are actually interested in buying the Lego toys if they actually happen more so than "Supporting" was just the right thing to do.

Again you're doubting the fanbase. Most Zelda fans that I have spoken too, which is somewhere in the hundreds, have said they would buy it if it happens. This has been on many wishlists for a long time.

-Omi

[fred67]

Meatman, on 07 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Let's be realistic though, how many fan boys that have helped some of these projects hit the 10k supports are actually going to buy them? Probably very few.

And that's part of the problem.  Maybe there should be a vetting period where you can't vote for a month after signing up, or maybe only VIP members should be able to sign up... or something.  This is the problem  When LEGO asks if you would "support" something, they are asking from a business perspective... they want to know if you'd buy the set.

I supported Serenity because I'd buy it.  I supported the Winchester because I'd buy it.  I supported Space Marines and the Western Modulars also for the same reason.

Even when it's a set I wouldn't want for myself, I've supported sets that I'd give as gifts - and mentioned that in the comment field when you click to support.  But it's not a maybe... it's people that I know would like those sets and I'd definitely buy them.

I really think it's uncool, and I definitely don't think it's what LEGO had in mind, to support something you wouldn't actually buy.  That's just my opinion.  But what happens when sets start getting made and they only sell 5 or 6k sets (or less)?  How long does something as cool as Cuusoo last under those circumstances?  It doesn't even mean that it goes away, just that TLG repeatedly uses the tired "it doesn't fit the core demographic (despite the fact our core demographic isn't old enough to vote, let alone post their own creations)."

Edited by fred67, 07 May 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[Meatman]

Omicron, on 07 May 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Again you're doubting the fanbase. Most Zelda fans that I have spoken too, which is somewhere in the hundreds, have said they would buy it if it happens. This has been on many wishlists for a long time.

-Omi

I am somewhat doubting the fanbase because as part of that fanbase if I were not into Lego, I would not care about Lego Zelda at all. I think from a fanbase standpoint that more people are voting just to vote to be part of a movement rather than looking forward to purchase what they are supporting.

From over the years I've known a lot of people who are fans of the Zelda franchise and I don't recall any of them collecting toys from the franchise.

[Ash]

fred67, on 07 May 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

How long does something as cool as Cuusoo last under those circumstances?  It doesn't even mean that it goes away, just that TLG repeatedly uses the tired "it doesn't fit the core demographic (despite the fact our core demographic isn't old enough to vote, let alone post their own creations)."

You're creating problems that don't exist and claiming The Lego Group will respond in a really stupid way solution for them based on nothing whatsoever. I mean why? I don't get it.

Cuusoo is an experiment. So far it seems to be a fairly successfully experiment. What I don't get with all these crazy doomsday hypotheticals people keep coming up is why they all seem to assume that TLG are a bunch of idiots. Seriously, you're manufacturing scenarios that they will have already considered and for some unfathomable reason insist on the assumption that they are incapable of adapting to this kind of stuff. I mean it's not like they're one of the most successful and oldest toy companies in the world or anything   I have no idea why so many people seem to think they're just going to sit there scratching their heads as Cuusoo goes down in flames.

And as it stands nothing is going down in flames. All this doom and gloom is based on nothing at all. At this point none of us have any idea what licensed sets will get made and how they will sell. Lego may have a rough idea as they have access to a level of market research that we don't and this will be part of the decision as to which sets get made or not. They are in a better position to make this decision than anyone. Personally I'm with Omicron. I think people are underestimating the appeal of Lego to any fan base. As a product it has massive crossover appeal and plenty of this stuff has already has Lego-knock-off products associated with them (My wife has a set of Kubrick-like Zelda characters for example).

[Meatman]

And Omicron, if you read some of the comments over at Brickset, you will see that I am not alone in my thoughts on this subject.

[Ash]

Meatman, on 07 May 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

From over the years I've known a lot of people who are fans of the Zelda franchise and I don't recall any of them collecting toys from the franchise.

Zelda merchandise sells really well. There's not a lot of it and much of it you need to import if outside of Japan, but it is a very popular franchise.

There have been several concert tours based on the music from the games that sell out multiple venues all over the world. Off the top of my head Star Wars is the only other geeky franchise that can do this kind of thing. Another head scratcher, when people claim that licensed sets only appeal to Lego fans and fans of the licensed property won't buy it... because Lego Star Wars has already happened and shown this is not the case.

[Omicron]

Meatman, on 07 May 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

I am somewhat doubting the fanbase because as part of that fanbase if I were not into Lego, I would not care about Lego Zelda at all. I think from a fanbase standpoint that more people are voting just to vote to be part of a movement rather than looking forward to purchase what they are supporting.

From over the years I've known a lot of people who are fans of the Zelda franchise and I don't recall any of them collecting toys from the franchise.

Some people who aren't into Lego actually buy Lego. Because it appeals to them in certain ways. This set can do that.

And if Lego doesn't make what they like, I make it for them. I have made Lego stuff for friends several times in the past.

So stop being a debbie downer on the whole thing, because it just ruins the whole fun of it.

-Omi

[Meatman]

What fun are you talking about? Fun that a project with a fanbase got 10k votes quickly because it got a lucky spot where it could be seen by the masses and supported easily by anyone?

I am not trying to be a downer on this, I just don't think things are balanced properly with the projects at Cuusoo. I don't even have anything up at Cuusoo and I can see that there is a problem.

I just feel that supports should be earned and not given.

Cuusoo is almost becoming a popularity contest between licenses. I don't think this was the original intent of this website.

[fred67]

Ash, on 07 May 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

You're creating problems that don't exist and claiming The Lego Group will respond in a really stupid way solution for them based on nothing whatsoever. I mean why? I don't get it.

I'm suggesting a hypothetical... and suggesting that TLG would respond the same way it's responded for years to questions about certain licenses (before Cuusoo ever existed) is not far fetched - they already did it with the Winchester.  There's a disconnect there when you need to be 13 to vote and 18 to submit a set, yet they deny a project because it doesn't suit their core demographic of 7 to 11 year olds.

[Omicron]

Meatman, on 07 May 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

What fun are you talking about? Fun that a project with a fanbase got 10k votes quickly because it got a lucky spot where it could be seen by the masses and supported easily by anyone?

I dunno why you would even call that luck. I've been a supporter of this long before it was even up on Cuusoo. I helped inspire the creator, and he had fun creating all assorted items (and even various other ones from games), and you're putting down the project that he has actually worked hard on. You may not think it, but he put time and money into this project and even updated it throughout the time it was on Cuusoo with the input from the fans. And you're questioning the votes he received and saying he didn't earn them, as opposed to someone else who just builds a moc and says "here you go, please vote for it", without updating it or making a few changes based on input?

And the fun is the excitement it brought to the fans and to customizors. And the excitement of the possible chance it has to becoming real.

And you are being a debbie downer about it. You're doubting its votes and your doubting the fanbase and even lowering its numbers.

If you want something like the Western modular to become real, you should advertise it, instead of complaining that it lost out like everyone else. It didn't lose out to anything, it's still in the race. You have to be the one to help get it to the finish line. If you complain about it, you pretty much just gave up on the project itself. Same with every other project on Cuusoo.

-Omi

[Scubacarrot]

Omicron, on 07 May 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

snip

I think this is very well said. I did not want to repeat myself so I kept quiet, but I got kinda annoyed with the people that speak badly of "licensed projects". Those people did work for their projects too, or the project has a large enough fanbase already to warrant quickly reaching their goal. Both are very good examples of the projects Cuusoo is interesting for.

[Dufresne]

I'm definitely late to the party on spotting this, and I see the conversation has moved on a bit, but man, I really, really hope this gets made. Firefly is my absolute favorite TV show ever. I posted a Serenity build of my own here last year, so I'm definitely behind this.

Edited by Dufresne, 08 May 2012 - 01:11 AM.

[Dstronghold]

It's already been rejected.

Quote

The Firefly TV show and Serenity film contain content that is not appropriate for our core target audience of children ages 6-11.

This makes me wonder if any of the latest ideas that got through are considered interests for kids aged 6-11. No one in that age range will know what the Delorean is, or what eve online is. Has nothing to do with the content.

[fred67]

Dstronghold, on 08 May 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

It's already been rejected.

Hate to say it.. but I told you guys and all I got was people getting mad at me.  They created Cuusoo, limited posting set ideas to 18+, limited voting to 13+, and then reject sets as being outside the "core" audience range of 6-11.  I really doubt many 6 to 11 year olds are asking their parents for the Shinkai or Hayabusa.

My honest opinion is that both the Winchester and this one were business decisions - these sets would be quite large - in the $150 to $200 range or higher, which makes them a much bigger risk to produce.

Sure, I can understand the explanation for the Winchester (although I still don't believe it), but given the licenses of the past - I won't recount all the gruesome scenes that TLG even made sets of, a simple space ship is not outside the core audience content.  In this case, it's an expensive set for a movie that didn't even recoup it's production cost (which was fairly low for sci-fi, by most standards) at the box office.

I don't blame them, but I don't think they're being honest about it... think of the fallout if they said "we don't think we'll make enough to take the risk on it."

The Minecraft sets are going to be.. what?  $34  Much less of a business risk.  Consider also that if you're not careful, the zombies get you in Minecraft, too.

Sorry - ranting, I know, just my opinion.

[LRDark]

Dstronghold, on 08 May 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

It's already been rejected.

I must say, the only thing I'm surprised at here is how quickly they responded to the 10,000 marker; I'm glad that they foresaw it reaching the number in order to limit the suspense though!

While I haven't seen the series, IMDB shows a good number of problematic scenarios within the television program, and I completely understand Lego not wanting to associate themselves with it. I don't know how under/overblown the information is, but if it's accurate it certainly seems like a viable reason to not put it into production. Again, it's a wonderful MOC, and I congratulate the creator of their 10,000 supporters!  

I am hoping that in the light of the latest two reviews, people will understand what it is Lego will and will not produce. These are children's toys after all, and while we may not all agree what is/isn't right for children, it's Lego's decision on where its line is drawn, and not ours. Here's to hoping for favourable reviews for Back to the Future and The Legend of Zelda!  

[Dstronghold]

LRDark, on 08 May 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

I must say, the only thing I'm surprised at here is how quickly they responded to the 10,000 marker; I'm glad that they foresaw it reaching the number in order to limit the suspense though!

I'm sure once a project gets past 7000ish votes they already have a decision for it if it meets the 6-11 age group.

[LRDark]

Dstronghold, on 08 May 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

I'm sure once a project gets past 7000ish votes they already have a decision for it if it meets the 6-11 age group.

I just remember waiting a good while to find out the fate of The Winchester. I hope they continue to be this vigilant with these sorts of decisions.

[fred67]

LRDark, on 08 May 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

While I haven't seen the series, IMDB shows a good number of problematic scenarios within the television program, and I completely understand Lego not wanting to associate themselves with it.

Do you now?  I don't get why people seem so delusionally willing to accept TLG's reasoning so quickly.

They made a set of Darth Vader's transformation... you know, where the limbless and burned to a crisp Anakin is transformed?
They made a set of the temple where Mola Ram rips out someone's still beating heart.
They made a set of the plane where the mechanic (and yes, they include the mechanic) gets chopped up and blood sprayed all over the plane and cockpit.

Let's not forget that Star Wars was before PG-13 (so was Empire).... Obi-wan chopping off some alien's arm; Han shooting first; Darth Vader picking some guy up by the neck and choking him to death then throwing him across the hall; the sexual overtones of Jabba's palace and his "slave" girls... a whole planet being destroyed?

And you guys buy this excuse that a mere ship itself is not suitable?  I didn't believe, but shrugged it off, when they rejected the Winchester, which was rated R after all, but this is just crazy... a PG-13 movie and TV show?

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm ranting... I'm really tired of TLG garbage about their core audience.  We had the same discussions after Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, when TLG stopped making sets... oh, it's "too dark," "too violent," not appropriate for kids anymore!

And, oh, they'll never do Lord of the Rings!  Too violent!  Since when has LOTR been something aimed at the "core" audience?

It's just rubbish - it's all about the $$$$, they simply don't think they'll make enough money to make it worth while... and that's fine; they're a business, and they don't succeed by making sets that don't make them money, but can we just stop being apologists for their disingenuous claims about their "core audience?"

And while I am still going to post this, and accept any ramifications, I'll apologize now to anyone who takes offense... I'm sorry, but it really bugs me that TLG seems to already be violating the spirit of Cuusoo (although I also believe the Winchester "surge" to 10k was not in the spirit of Cuusoo, either, I'll admit).

[meyerc13]

What's that sound?  Oh, another nail in the coffin for Cuusoo.  The Winchester, yeah I get that a rated R movie may be over the line.  But how can they be offended by a PG-13 movie, when all of their licensed themes are based on the same?

Lord of the Rings
Batman
Avengers
Pirates of the Caribbean
Prince of Persia
Harry Potter (some)
Star Wars Episode III
Indiana Jones (some)

There are probably more I'm missing, but all rated the same as Serenity, for reasons that were discussed quite thoroughly in the Winchester thread, and Serenity isn't appropriate for their core audience?

Cuusoo is going to do more to damage the LEGO brand than to help it with all of these hopes they are dashing.

[LRDark]

fred67, on 08 May 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Do you now?  I don't get why people seem so delusionally willing to accept TLG's reasoning so quickly.

I really don't appreciate having my trust called "delusional." Don't agree with their reasoning if you want; would you like it if I said that you're "delusionally willing to accept a trusted company is lying to you when they could just as easily tell you the truth?" I've already stated points regarding past licenses in another thread, and I won't be doing it here. Don't call me delusional for having different opinions.

Quote

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm ranting... I'm really tired of TLG garbage about their core audience.

Why is it garbage that they won't make something where, as I understand it and according to IMDB, the main character is a prostitute, there are sex scenes, nudity, whore houses, and threats of rape. Had I a child, I wouldn't want them exposed to that. You might want your kids to be, and that's fine, but please understand that there is a moral line that TLG doesn't seem to be willing to cross.

Quote

And, oh, they'll never do Lord of the Rings!  Too violent!  Since when has LOTR been something aimed at the "core" audience?

Since I'm unable to compare The Lord of the Rings with Firefly, I can't say that it is less than or equal to the other in terms of violence. However, violence isn't the only determining factor.

Quote

but can we just stop being apologists for their disingenuous claims about their "core audience?"

I would rather look at these things in terms of their core audience instead of an AFoL's point of view. I realize that I'm not their target audience, and I evaluate things based on what I feel would be best for their business. Regarding this, I absolutely believe that their evalutation was correct in stating that this project would not be a positive product for the kids.

Quote

I'm sorry, but it really bugs me that TLG seems to already be violating the spirit of Cuusoo.

What about this is violating the "Spirit of Cuusoo" to you? It is a privilege given to adults to provide Lego with projects that might have otherwise been overlooked. That is it, in terms of actual "guidelines," as far as I know. It is up to the creators of the projects to understand that Lego has limits on what they can market to kids. It might be more beneficial for Lego to elaborate this on the actual guidelines, but it seems as though it should've been fairly obvious, at least to me. There are a plethora of ideas that haven't been touched on in Lego lines, and this is our chance to make some new things happen. Unfortunately, the only models getting the numbers seem to be aimed at adult themes instead of themes fit for the average child (or at least what parents want for their average child).