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Comic-Con minifigures


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#51 Hammerstein NWC

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:58 PM

View Posthalfpenguinhalflego, on 26 July 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

I don't mind any of these exclusives if they come up only as a variation of present or upcoming figures. (Take 'Venom' for example)

But when they only ever come up as a SDCC exclusive it can be heartbraking. However, in the end I just get over it, I'll probably never get a Phoenix or Shazam minifig, but at least someone will.  :laugh: In the end of the day, I can collect Marvel/DC minifigures which I never thought would happen 2 years ago.

As I said before I don't understand why these figs can't be realeased without the backing card later. Look at Superman - he was a comiccon exclusive and now you can get him for peanuts in the Luthor set, does that mean the Comic con ones are worthless. Superman with backing card $150-$250 without $10? I'm pretty sure it's exactly the same figure but it's the packaging that makes it valuable.

it's the same principle as other carded toy figures. without the card they are "common".

I'm really only fussed about Venom and it appears he will be coming out as a fig in another set anyways. :)
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#52 TheLegoDr

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:19 PM

Unless I missed something, I thought it was confirmed that the SDCC figure was the symbiote Spiderman, and not Venom. And that is why they are coming out with an official Venom figure in 2013.

I do like the CC figures, but at the same time I'm not going to spend over $100 for any figure, no matter who it is of. With that said, I would like to own all of the figures released because I like collecting figures. I do agree the packaging shows it is an exclusive, so it becomes more valuable. Otherwise they can release the figure in a cheap set (like Superman) and then everyone is happy. But there is still that exclusive version out there. TLG could conceivably change one part of the figure, even a subtle face printing change/expression and now it is no longer the same figure. How often do they put a cape on a SW figure and say it is new? Or just switch something up slightly and then it becomes a new figure, even if everything else is exactly the same as the previous version? People will still buy it because it is "new" and it will be different from the exclusive. I don't know if TLG will do that with any of the CC exclusives, but they do it in other themes, so that would anger a lot less people.

At that price, I would be very worried about buying a fake, even if the printing looks spot on and the quality is there. I agree, if they can make that quality of a knock-off, then sign me up, but only if the price can reflect that. The problem is the price will still be elevated and you aren't buying an official product. If you knew you were buying a fake, you'd expect some decline in price at least, otherwise you pay the premium of LEGO exclusive. I realize anyone selling these is trying to make money so they aren't going to give a discount on a good fake if they can milk it for everything they can. But that is why I'll never buy an official CC figure because I wouldn't want to gamble if it is real or fake. And with the technology these days, anything can be faked.
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#53 natelite

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:49 PM

the last NYCC superman was supposedly sold for north of $350. i said supposedly because who knows the bidder might be a pal of the seller.  :wacko:  and you can't get market price since there are only 200 ever made.

a new superman from the lex luthor set is only $5-6, not $10. you're looking at more than 58x mark up for just the display card. i would assume if AFA certified would be $500 if not more, making it 100x marked up over regular set figure.  :laugh:

View PostTheLegoDr, on 25 September 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

I realize anyone selling these is trying to make money so they aren't going to give a discount on a good fake if they can milk it for everything they can. But that is why I'll never buy an official CC figure because I wouldn't want to gamble if it is real or fake. And with the technology these days, anything can be faked.

the only thing unique about it is the printing. lego pieces can be easily obtained otherwise. with flat-bed printing possible now with a $18k machine and we've seen lots of customizers printing their own, it's not hard to postulate that a few unscrupulous individuals can easily print their own copy of the figures.

display card printing is nothing new and can be done easily 5-10yrs ago. so why not now?

i don't mind limited editions minifigures but i don't think they should make it easy to duplicate. i seriously think TLC should have control numbers or authentication seals for limited editions. much like the 1st series UCS MF.

#54 Sam892

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:03 PM

When looking at sellers I find it very useful to see what they have sold prior. You can usually tell what's real and what's fake for example if the seller is selling a comic con minifigure, and some of his other items for sale are a limited edition SDCC bust or a Exculsive variant of an action figure (SDCC Exculsive ) then I would be safer buy those figs. However just because someone has a lot of the same doesn't their fake. He could have gone to SDCC with 8 friends with him being the only Lego fan. They all enter the raffle thinking they would have more of a chance at winning one. They win multiple of each. So they give them to the one fan and he doesn't want 5 copies of each so sells some on eBay. I have seen custom ones on eBay that were machine printed but were advertised as custom and sold for about $35 each. I don't think there's any sure way of being sure what your buying on eBay, but you can always get money back if you believe it's fake. Sure you may have to through a court though.

#55 natelite

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:26 PM

View PostSam892, on 25 September 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

When looking at sellers I find it very useful to see what they have sold prior. You can usually tell what's real and what's fake for example if the seller is selling a comic con minifigure, and some of his other items for sale are a limited edition SDCC bust or a Exculsive variant of an action figure (SDCC Exculsive ) then I would be safer buy those figs. However just because someone has a lot of the same doesn't their fake. He could have gone to SDCC with 8 friends with him being the only Lego fan. They all enter the raffle thinking they would have more of a chance at winning one. They win multiple of each. So they give them to the one fan and he doesn't want 5 copies of each so sells some on eBay. I have seen custom ones on eBay that were machine printed but were advertised as custom and sold for about $35 each. I don't think there's any sure way of being sure what your buying on eBay, but you can always get money back if you believe it's fake. Sure you may have to through a court though.

i would buy your argument if there were other variants of CC items for sale, like action figures, posters, etc. Afterall, no one camps at the lego booth 24/7. But it's only lego.

Another suspicious trait is that the multiple minifigures were the same. e.g. someone selling just phoenix and venom or just shazam and bizarro. what are the odds of that? perhaps they gotten hold of a box of shipment? a box usually contains 50.

there's also one guy who kept selling the 4 figures. at first i thought perhaps his friends were helping him bid up the items but it wasn't the case. his feedback actually indicated actual sales. I don't see how he could have gotten that many complete sets. It's like he has an army of 100s of participants.

#56 Sam892

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:17 PM

View Postnatelite, on 25 September 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

i would buy your argument if there were other variants of CC items for sale, like action figures, posters, etc. Afterall, no one camps at the lego booth 24/7. But it's only lego.

Another suspicious trait is that the multiple minifigures were the same. e.g. someone selling just phoenix and venom or just shazam and bizarro. what are the odds of that? perhaps they gotten hold of a box of shipment? a box usually contains 50.

there's also one guy who kept selling the 4 figures. at first i thought perhaps his friends were helping him bid up the items but it wasn't the case. his feedback actually indicated actual sales. I don't see how he could have gotten that many complete sets. It's like he has an army of 100s of participants.
Hmm strange... Well I think Lego will have always more than 1000 of each invade of damage during shipping or invade a case is lost during shipping. However that aside it looks strange how he's only selling those figs nothing else ever. I suppose his friends could keep biding them up and leaving the feedback but eBay would have caught on to the act by now hopefully. Maybe the guy works at the con for lego or could have got given or even stolen a back up box. Even then I can't see all the figures being mixed up, surely Lego would box all Bizarros together. I would most likely guess that it's either someone producing fakes or someone who has 10 friends each with 10 accounts that keep buying them by accident trying to increase bids. Either way it seems fishy in both situations.

#57 Nintendawg

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:33 PM

As unfair as it may seem, one person having 20 of a certain figure is possible. All they would have to do is loiter around and buy the figs from people that aren't into Lego or DC/Marvel. Infact I think I remember reading reports of that happening. Even if you were paying attendees $50 for each fig, you would still multiply that with only very minimal work.

I still believe these are too limited though. By making them so limited, Lego makes it easier to corner the market.

Have any proven fakes surfaced yet?

#58 natelite

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

View PostNintendawg, on 26 September 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

As unfair as it may seem, one person having 20 of a certain figure is possible. All they would have to do is loiter around and buy the figs from people that aren't into Lego or DC/Marvel. Infact I think I remember reading reports of that happening. Even if you were paying attendees $50 for each fig, you would still multiply that with only very minimal work.

I still believe these are too limited though. By making them so limited, Lego makes it easier to corner the market.

Have any proven fakes surfaced yet?

we're not talking 20, we're talking 200+ per figure. even if you pay each attendant $20 for a figure, you're talking about $4000 of seed money. probably more.

#59 Sam892

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 04:17 PM

View Postnatelite, on 26 September 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

we're not talking 20, we're talking 200+ per figure. even if you pay each attendant $20 for a figure, you're talking about $4000 of seed money. probably more.
Also on top of that the probability of someone being able to buy about 30 of each fig is near to nothing. Most of the comic con attendees even no lego fans will know that the figures are worth a lot more. It's written al over the place there's only a thousand and just though word of mouth in lines. Also with free wi fi and 4G + 3G anyone can look on the web to see how much there going for. I remember this year I comic con employee got his hands on the figs early put them on eBay and was selling them at $400 each.

#60 AndyC

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:18 PM

View Postnatelite, on 25 September 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

there's also one guy who kept selling the 4 figures. at first i thought perhaps his friends were helping him bid up the items but it wasn't the case. his feedback actually indicated actual sales. I don't see how he could have gotten that many complete sets. It's like he has an army of 100s of participants.

A classic eBay scam is to keep "selling" items between multiple fake accounts in order to build up a seemingly high amount of positive feedback, thus prepping the account to look genuine when they use it to really scam someone. The giveaway is often feedback being given almost the instant the bidding finishes. The same items being sold over and over is also a common sign, because the scammers can't be bothered to go to all the effort involved in creating lots of different auctions.
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#61 BrickG

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:15 PM

I hate these things.  As someone who wants to COMPLETE collections I just feel screwed.  They're meant to give Lego attention but just make me angry at them.

I can't let myself spend $100 on a single minifigure (and Marvel had FOUR....) so I can't complete my collection.  Bad feelings all over.  I really wish they wouldn't release exclusives like this...

#62 Sam892

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:49 PM

View PostBrickG, on 26 September 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

I hate these things.  As someone who wants to COMPLETE collections I just feel screwed.  They're meant to give Lego attention but just make me angry at them.

I can't let myself spend $100 on a single minifigure (and Marvel had FOUR....) so I can't complete my collection.  Bad feelings all over.  I really wish they wouldn't release exclusives like this...
Well two of the figs (black suit Spider-man and Jean Grey) go for about $100 each, but the special edition Iron-man and Captain America are about $1500 each! Which is incredible. I've been trying to get Spider-man and Jean for a few weeks now but always get out bidded at the last second by about £1.50. I just lost another to someone a second ago. I'm desperate to try and get myself to the con but its expensive. For me to go for the week it's going to be about £3000. I don't mind promtional figures but its frustrating when it becomes the journey of middle of earth. I'm fine with spend x amount between these dates at lego. They level the playing field and allow anyone anywhere to get one.
Marvel aren't in my good books this year after the 4 Exculsive figures that I couldn't afford even with the sale of my kidney, and disaster that was the UK Blu-ray of The Avengers. Hopefully LEGO will not do the same thing again and just hand out previews.

On a seperate note I don't suppose anyone has the names of the suspected scammers? I would like to take a look and also just to becareful. If you can't post them on here could you send me them in a PM please.

Edited by Sam892, 26 September 2012 - 08:53 PM.


#63 Gooker1

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 07:33 PM

View Postnatelite, on 25 September 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

I am beginning to think that these figures aren't as exclusive as they said they are. Observe the ebay sellers and they are usually the same few individuals. On occasions, a 0 feedback (or low feedback of between 1 to 10) seller would list them. Probably related to the same individuals who are trying to spread out the selling to appear innocuous.

How can individuals get so many in stock? Check the feedback. They sell these like 5 per week. For 2 months running, that's 40 per person. I reckon approximately 200 would have been sold by now. That's like 20% of released figures.

Maybe it's plausible but why always those individuals? Are they reproducing them and selling them as authentic versions? Does TLC need to make these with holographic authentication seals now to combat the pirates? With the high quality printing available now it's not hard to imagine it's doable - to print the figures and the cards.

I've been trying to pay attention to these figures on eBay, and you might see the same seller over and over again. Here's what I've found out.  Some people got really lucky and found the people handing out the DC cards for the figures and there would be a family and a bunch of friends...that can be like 5-10 for one person right there if that person takes them and resells them.  Others would sit there and buy from people who won them via Lego's raffle at $20-50 a piece and just resell that on eBay.

The most interesting thing I've found is that one seller has been buying at least 50 so far on eBay and reselling them in lots.  You can't tell winning bidders on eBay b/c all but two characters are blacked out.  But, I decided to check their feedback, and their feedback as a buyer showed them buying a bunch of exclusives from random sellers.  He's stockpiling and relisting them as sets.

Here's his feedback:
http://feedback.ebay...FeedbackAsBuyer

You can see what he's listed and what he's bought.  I'd be careful buying from him though, as it's pretty clear his auctions are shilled really bad.

He is buying from legitimate sellers b/c I've bid against him on some items from people across the country.  He's just stockpiling.

Edited by Gooker1, 27 September 2012 - 07:39 PM.


#64 natelite

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:04 PM

View PostGooker1, on 27 September 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

I've been trying to pay attention to these figures on eBay, and you might see the same seller over and over again. Here's what I've found out.  Some people got really lucky and found the people handing out the DC cards for the figures and there would be a family and a bunch of friends...that can be like 5-10 for one person right there if that person takes them and resells them.  Others would sit there and buy from people who won them via Lego's raffle at $20-50 a piece and just resell that on eBay.

The most interesting thing I've found is that one seller has been buying at least 50 so far on eBay and reselling them in lots.  You can't tell winning bidders on eBay b/c all but two characters are blacked out.  But, I decided to check their feedback, and their feedback as a buyer showed them buying a bunch of exclusives from random sellers.  He's stockpiling and relisting them as sets.

Here's his feedback:
http://feedback.ebay...FeedbackAsBuyer

You can see what he's listed and what he's bought.  I'd be careful buying from him though, as it's pretty clear his auctions are shilled really bad.

He is buying from legitimate sellers b/c I've bid against him on some items from people across the country.  He's just stockpiling.

nice sleuthing. so i guess this is resellers buying from resellers. makes me feel a little better that there's no duplication happening. overall, i guess the big winner is ebay and paypal. feeding off of these resellers. it's like a ponzi scheme aka musical chair: the last one caught without a seat loses.

i guess for such limited editions, it's quite easy to corner the market. just keep buying at your target floor price and relist at the higher price and eventually you have a full monopoly on the item. people will need to buy from you in order to get any. nice!

#65 Gooker1

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:16 PM

View Postnatelite, on 27 September 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

nice sleuthing. so i guess this is resellers buying from resellers. makes me feel a little better that there's no duplication happening. overall, i guess the big winner is ebay and paypal. feeding off of these resellers. it's like a ponzi scheme aka musical chair: the last one caught without a seat loses.

i guess for such limited editions, it's quite easy to corner the market. just keep buying at your target floor price and relist at the higher price and eventually you have a full monopoly on the item. people will need to buy from you in order to get any. nice!


Yea, it caught me off guard when one guy was selling 5 or 6 sets on ebay.  That's just insane, then I saw his feedback and looked it up and noticed he had been buying them all along.  I've been tracking it off and on, and he's been doing this from end of SDCC.  So he's definitely paid more than what they're going for now.  I'm wondering if he's made any money on this plan of his at all.

It's tough to say b/c his sold auctions are so shilled, you can't tell which one has a legitimate buyer.

Edited by Gooker1, 27 September 2012 - 08:17 PM.


#66 Faefrost

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

View Postnatelite, on 27 September 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

nice sleuthing. so i guess this is resellers buying from resellers. makes me feel a little better that there's no duplication happening. overall, i guess the big winner is ebay and paypal. feeding off of these resellers. it's like a ponzi scheme aka musical chair: the last one caught without a seat loses.

i guess for such limited editions, it's quite easy to corner the market. just keep buying at your target floor price and relist at the higher price and eventually you have a full monopoly on the item. people will need to buy from you in order to get any. nice!

Yeah, which kind of illustrates why these exclusive comic con figs, are really a bad thing, at least as far as Lego and their regular legitimate fans and customers go. All these things do is line the pockets of a very limited pool of mercenary specialty dealers. The good feelings that Lego generates among fans are far out weighed by the bad feelings generated by the limited supply, the insanely high aftermarket pricing, and the blatant manipulation to insure that no real fan will ever see one of these. Just no actual benefit to either party that matter most.
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#67 BrickG

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 04:46 PM

I don't mind if they're previews to future minifigures.  Superman and Batman saw release and Bilbo will too.  But they're not sometimes.  They're flat out exclusive much of the time.  We'll probably never see a Bizzaro or Pheonix and if we ever do it'll be years.  We still haven't seen a Green Lanturn probably because the movie bombed.  
Exclusive characters are painful (or completely new takes on characters like Symbiote Spiderman).  I can live with a different Batman that doesn't match it perfectly as long as they offer the character.

#68 natelite

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 05:51 PM

i'm fine with exclusives. there's nothing stopping you from bidding or not bidding anyway. btw, it's easy to corner the market because of the limited production runs, but then again the "scalper" or dealer is still taking a lot of risk. imagine if he overpaid and the demand from AFOLs is not really as strong as he predicted, then the price will come down. he will lose money for every one he overbought. it's a huge risk. so, yes, if he has unlimited money, he can buy all 1000 units, but then what? he won't be able to make anything out of them if there are no actual buyers at his price point.

i think exclusive sets and figures are just another part of the lego market and i think TLC should develop them. you can't call them legitimate or illegitimate. lego by nature is a very expensive toy. by your logic, if it's above a certain price point then it becomes illegitimate? why?

i would like a 14k gold c-3po too, and so would anyone else. why doesn't TLC make more of them? it's just not fair, right? it's simple, the desirability of a set is proportional to the price. the higher the price (or presumed value), the higher the desirability.

imagine if UCS DS can be bought retail for $1.99, do you think anyone would bother buying these or any other sets? everywhere you go, lego pieces would litter the street. got a crushed minifig? no prob...just dump it and buy another UCS DS. i'm sure you'll be having the opposite conversation - of how TLC is screwing legitimate collector because the sets are too cheap, and non lego fans buy these to throw away... and legitimate lego fans are angry their precious toy is no longer sacred.

after watching shows like toy hunter and collection intervention, i now have a much better understanding and appreciation of exclusive items. if you love lego and you want your collection to appreciate in value in the future, then buy exclusive items. if not, then just treat your lego sets as playthings where once worned out, you throw away. there's nothing stopping you from how you want to enjoy them. just because the green lantern is too expensive for you to play and discard, doesn't mean it should be that way for other lego fans who want to keep and collect.

you enjoy them how you want to enjoy them and i get to enjoy them how i like to enjoy them.

#69 Sam892

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 06:43 PM

View PostBrickG, on 28 September 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

I don't mind if they're previews to future minifigures.  Superman and Batman saw release and Bilbo will too.  But they're not sometimes.  They're flat out exclusive much of the time.  We'll probably never see a Bizzaro or Pheonix and if we ever do it'll be years.  We still haven't seen a Green Lanturn probably because the movie bombed.  
Exclusive characters are painful (or completely new takes on characters like Symbiote Spiderman).  I can live with a different Batman that doesn't match it perfectly as long as they offer the character.
LEGO have already stated that they will not make any of the exculsive Figures for a wider release. Even them DKR Batman is different as in the upcoming set his suit is grey.
I'm not a big fan of Exculsives I would much rather that LEGO pre released some figs from the upcoming wave.

#70 Faefrost

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 04:03 AM

View PostSam892, on 28 September 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

LEGO have already stated that they will not make any of the exculsive Figures for a wider release. Even them DKR Batman is different as in the upcoming set his suit is grey.
I'm not a big fan of Exculsives I would much rather that LEGO pre released some figs from the upcoming wave.

I've said this before, but in a nutshell here is the heart of it. Putting out an exclusive minifig for something like comic con is fine. However making it an exclusive character is quite frankly grossly insulting to the actual real paying customers. The DKR batman was fine. It was a variant of a fig that was available. The 24k gold C3PO is once again simply a figure variant of a character that a fan can still acquire and enjoy. But things like Pheonix, Bizarro, Shazam and Black Adam are a horrible use of the comics license, and a Gross disservice to the embedded fan base of the comic and superhero subjects.
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#71 Sam892

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:23 AM

Yay after looking for months and constant outbidding I've finally won a pair!!
I agree that if LEGO want to make variations of figures I usually don't care. I do with Black suit Spider-man however since the Venom story line is such an important part of the spider-man mythos. It's different with Bat-man as he has about 10 suits. It's when lego make a character exclusively for an event that the majority of fans can't get is disappointing to say the least. Taking a look at all four of this years exclusives the one with the best chance of being made is Bizzaro. With the new Superman film series coming out next year, hopefully he will appear as a villian later on in the franchise. Also this depends on LEGO continuing making Superman sets. The other 3 are near impossible to be made.

#72 Gooker1

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 06:58 PM

View Postnatelite, on 28 September 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

i'm fine with exclusives. there's nothing stopping you from bidding or not bidding anyway. btw, it's easy to corner the market because of the limited production runs, but then again the "scalper" or dealer is still taking a lot of risk. imagine if he overpaid and the demand from AFOLs is not really as strong as he predicted, then the price will come down. he will lose money for every one he overbought. it's a huge risk. so, yes, if he has unlimited money, he can buy all 1000 units, but then what? he won't be able to make anything out of them if there are no actual buyers at his price point.



Yes, that eBay seller is taking a lot of risk and he's eating it on fees and the sorts.  Take a look at his latest auctions:  

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2562

You can tell by the bids, that his bidding is getting shilled really really drastically.  I suggest people report the shilling on ebay since it's so blatant.  I've done so already. :)

#73 Zarkan

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:39 PM

I think what some people are not realizing (including, initially, me) is that as far as the Lego Superheroes line is concerned, conventions seem to be a clearinghouse for figures that will almost certainly never be released in official sets. This is because for the most part TLC does not appear to be interested in taking full advantage of the vast universes they have licensed, and instead seems content to release Lego Batman: Generation 2 and Lego "Whatever comic book movies will be popular with kids this year." The reason we haven't gotten a Green Lantern set, for example, is because the movie bombed with Lego's target audience, and thus TLC probably assumes that it's not worth making a kit based on either it or the current animated TV series (which has only 3 million or so viewers). In contrast, the Spiderman reboot was a hit, and though the Ultimate Spiderman series is tanking in the ratings, TLC probably assumes anything with Spiderman's name on it will attract the combined audiences of both the film and the show. And as for characters who don't have movies at all.... well, its pretty easy to see why Bizarro and Shazam were relegated to the conventions.

Edited by Zarkan, 01 October 2012 - 10:40 PM.

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#74 AndyC

AndyC

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:55 PM

Thing is, they're probably entirely right to do that. What would be the point in them releasing wave after wave of obscure super hero sets that none of the kids in the target audience wanted? Sure it might appeal to a subset of comic fans, but it's hardly a sensible business strategy. At the end of the day the aim is to make sets that kids want to play with and you don't do that by ignoring all the characters they are most interested in.

However, that doesn't mean that they won't at some point re-visit some of these comic-con figures and release updated versions of them. If a new Superman movie came out with Bizarro as the main enemy, do you really think TLG would ignore it just because they'd previously released an exclusive design version? Likewise, they'll probably find ways to slot some of the lesser characters into sets here and there along the way.
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#75 BrickG

BrickG

    Posts: 1145
    Joined: 03-September 12
    Member: 31138

Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:37 AM

AJFDLKSLKFJKSLD!

Seriously Lego, stop it!  STOP IT!  :(


http://www.ebay.com/...=item4d05becb27

I hope there's some that are sold for a sane price...  but I highly doubt it.



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