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[WIP] HMS Icarus


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24 replies to this topic  – Started by Foremast Jack , Feb 14 2012 06:34 PM

#1 Foremast Jack

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:34 PM

Greetings fellow seafarers!

Let me start by saying that while I've spent a fair amount of time here amongst your ranks I've yet to offer anything laid down in real brick. The time has come for that to change (although it won't change with this post  :pir-hmpf_bad:).

I want to try an explain my motivation behind this build. I'm a great lover of all things nautical, but the Royal Navy of the Napoleonic Wars has a special place in my heart. However, what drew me to these great forums, some many months ago, was Pirates of the Caribbean. Now I stumbled across LDD a while before these forums, and with that great tool I had a wonderful opportunity to start building a model of the HMS Interceptor. The Interceptor was far and away my favourite ship from the films. I'm not going to say that it's the only "real" pirate ship in the films, but I would suggest that it is the closest thing to what would have been most prefer by pirates. A further motivating factor in deciding to render the Interceptor in most glorious plastic perfection was the simple fact that I couldn't find anywhere that it had been done. Now I should say that there were several custom LEGO ships that people had created and called the HMS Interceptor. Alas, none of these (that I could find) were actually built based on the real thing. They seemed to be LEGO sets that had maybe some extra cannon, or a little more here and there, but they never really looked anything like the ship in the film. I felt it a travesty that so fine a vessel should not have justice done to its grandeur. (Not to say I've done her justice, but I'd like to think it's at least a start.)

Now, that is where I started, and that was before I found these forums. Once I took a look around here and saw all the great talent that was common place, I realized that I really needed to step up my game and decided to make something as historically accurate as I could (custom rigging, sails, etc.). With that though, I still very much wanted to replicate the Interceptor. So I decided to kind of combine the two projects. This created some interesting problems. Firstly the ship used for the Interceptor in the film was the Lady Washington. A fine ship in her own right, but a modern tall-ship, thus not the best model to create an "accurate" early 19th century naval vessel. What I ended up doing was taking the hull of the Lady Washington (which I'm going to solely refer to as Interceptor henceforth) and pairing it with the innards of an actual ship from the time. Pair is perhaps not the best term, since the two don't really match up. Rather I tried to cram as many of the features that would have been on a brig in the service of His Majesty into the shell of the Interceptor. This called for some key changes in certain areas, and because of these changes I didn't feel right calling her the HMS Interceptor. So, I decided to go with HMS Icarus (an actual Royal Navy gun-brig in service at the time). I think I've done a pretty good job at balancing playability with extreme detail, but of course, part of posting everything here is to get your thoughts on just that and perhaps any suggestions you may have. So, let's to the good stuff...

I have placed several Brick-Link orders for parts that will amount to what is the hold of the ship. However, since they've not yet arrived and I'm anxious to get something recorded I can only give you a screen-shot of the LDD model.

Now please keep in mind that whilst the LDD model is "complete" there are naturally things that can be done in real life, but not replicated to great effect in LDD (without causing irreplicable brain-damage). That, along with the fact that since day one I've planned to build this in actual brick I didn't bother to make things work on screen that I know would when I got my grubby, little fingers on those studded bricks of gold. I say that, to make it clear that there will be some obvious features missing from the ship (e.g. yard-less masts, no cannon on deck). Don't hesitate to raise any questions though.

I think I've rambled enough. After 8 months of research and development here she is...

Posted Image

As way of comparison here is a screen shot from Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl:

Posted Image

Edited by Foremast Jack, 15 February 2012 - 12:36 AM.

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They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
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#2 halfpenguinhalflego

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

This looks fantastic! Can't wait till you start having pictures of it being built in real life  :pir-classic:
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#3 Foremast Jack

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:58 PM

Thanks Penguin. I dare say you're not the only one waiting for the real building to begin. :wink:
"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#4 Frank Brick Wright

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:40 PM

I've seen this somewhere else… Posted Image

Well you have clearly designed a very unique vessel and an elegant one! I'm glad to know you are finally on your way to build her, I can't wait to see the next update! Posted Image The masts platforms look lightly larger than what they should be but that's just a small detail.

Tell your orders to hurry up! Posted Image

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#5 Foremast Jack

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostFrank Brick Wright, on 14 February 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

The masts platforms look lightly larger than what they should be but that's just a small detail.

I'm fairly confident they are properly sized. I think perhaps because the masts are naked they look larger, in proportion, than what looks right. Once the yards are hung and she's flying canvas I think all will be well. I do appreciate the comment though.

p.s. Those platforms are called the "tops" by the way. (e.g. Fore-top and Main-top in this case) :pir-classic:
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#6 Admiral Croissant

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:30 PM

Great that you're taking the challenge of building this ship :thumbup:
From the bowsprit to the main mast I like everything about it. From mast to stern I think it needs some more work though.

The cabin in the back looks a bit too blocky and edgy to me.
One way to change this is to lower the cabin. As you can see here, it's only about half the height of a person.
Another thing you could do (or perhaps it's the best to do both) is make the deck go narrower towards the stern.
Here's a reference picture for the narrowness.

I think you've done a great job so far and I can't wait to see the first pictures of the real LEGO thing! Keep it up!
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#7 Foremast Jack

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:06 PM

Thanks for the comments Admiral Croissant. You are right that the stern (cabin) is too tall. I purposefully designed her this way. The quarterdeck lifts off to allow access to the cabin for working of the guns there. I decided to make it tall enough for a mini-fig to stand upright since they don't crouch too well. :wink: I know it throws the look off a bit, and perhaps it's a bit too much. It's hard for me to say, since I've grown accustomed to her peculiarities. Do you think I should sacrifice playability here in order to retain a more accurate external look?
"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#8 Sebeus I

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:07 PM

Very nice, I agree with Admiral C, the stern could use some work, it doesn't follow the right shape well, I suppose you can't change much about the hull ( the old hull stern prefab would be much better for this ship) so never mind about that but maybe you could try some different techniques to make the deck narrow near the stern.
the bow and mid deck looks great.
I have tried making the interceptor but I couldn't figure out a way to do the stern windows unfortunatly, eventually I just gave up and made another ship (my first mechanic ship).
The only picture I could find of it is this one (in the left) you can't see very much unfortunatly  :pir-grin:

Anyway, I'm glad to finally see something from you, keep up the good work  :pir-classic:

#9 Foremast Jack

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:15 PM

Oh, yes I meant to make note of it in the first post. I'm actually going to be using one of the old-style pre-fab stern pieces. So the transition from the waterline to the base of the quarterdeck won't be as bland and blocky as it is in LDD. I'm having to order every piece for this project since I gave all my childhood LEGOs away many years ago, and this is my first real life build since the end of my dark age. Once I have the base down I can better visualize how to make the transition best in LDD. I'm glad you brought it up Sebeus.
"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
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#10 matt22hew

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:25 PM

Looks great!

Can't wait to see it in real brick! I always loved the openness of a brig
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#11 kurigan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:22 PM

I don’t intend to be disparaging in anyway. In fact I’ll only be so honest because I like you. She looks good, but you could do better. Mind you, I don’t mean as a Lego ship she is insufficient, I mean that I believe you, Jack, have the capability to make an even better model. I know your first one is special and dear, even if she’s not quite the thing; in my own experience, love is blind. You definitely have about all the necessary components and elements particular to this vessel, but they could be approached with a greater attention to detail and accuracy. Eight months is a long time to pour your heart into something and have someone tell you you’ve missed the mark, but I beg of you not to be the slightest bit discouraged. Instead be inspired and forge on.

  

What are some of the issues I have? For one the utter lack of curvature to her hull for to aft. On the lateral view, though you do have a fine tumblehome, she doesn’t bow along her keel, a feature rather prominent on Interceptor’s hull in your reference image. What’s more on that point is her hull in the ventral view is completely slab-sided on account of those pre-fab hulls. The channels, the boards where the shrouds meat the hull, seem unusually short, for to aft so to speak. If you intend to use Lego shrouds, I suppose this makes sense, but why not include them in the LDD model? If you’re going for string shrouds, wouldn’t they be better longer, so the shrouds and stays could be farther spread at the base; again your reference image lends me a hand here. She also seems awkward astern and I even have some questions here. Firstly some of the gun ports were false, added for the film as I’m sure your research showed. That last one in particular, is a rather ridiculous notion, though and always bothered me. If the gun were placed so close to the rear most wall of the ship, how would the crew work it? Wouldn’t it have been simpler to just move it forward? I digress though. On the reference image it looks like only that one port hangs over the narrow part of the hull, while you have at least two, which seems a bit too much structure suspended above the water for so small a vessel. Sure a great galleon could support a large stern cabin, being so long and large, but Interceptor wouldn’t have the mass to counter balance so much weight very well at all. I’m going to guess that your situation came down to, having the hull too long, or two short considering one more hull section? Though I don’t have a solution to offer, I would humbly suggest tackling this problem before building. My final point is more of a question and considering you with 8 months research on her more the expert than me, perhaps you can help me out. Is Lady Washington’s wheel really up on the quarter/poop deck like that. It always seemed out of character to me for a vessel of this type and time period to me in the film? I always figured they mocked a fake wheel up on the poop to make it more “pirate” like, and that the wheel would have been down on the main deck, perhaps built into the cabin wall, more like HMS Speedy.

  

On a far more encouraging note, your tops are spot on. Since this is a man of war, she’d need “fighting tops” which needed to be larger than on merchant ships. I’m sure when the film makers were modifying Lady Washington this was a detail they over looked or purposely omitted. The extra space allows for a parcel of armed men to operate firearms from aloft in an action. Some ships with large enough platforms would even mount swivel guns up there. Your attention to detail shows in the inclusion of a “lubber’s hole”, even if the scale doesn’t allow for one large enough for a mini-fig, kudos!

  

I do thank you for sharing her, despite my criticisms, she is a fine vessel and I hope to see her develop.

  

P.S. Much of what I talked about in this post, was covered by others over the time it took to compose. I’m going to post it in its entirety to save time but please don’t think I’m harping.



#12 Captain Becker

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:01 PM

Id like to get LXF-file to take a bit closer look before i say anything. :pir-classic:

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#13 Foremast Jack

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:17 PM

Kurigan let me first say that there are few here from which I value such voracious loquacity more. The blinding effect of first loves to which you speak is so true. That coupled with countless hours of acquaintance have undoubtedly lead to some sub-par renditions. I hope to address and at least strike up conversation, if not out-right satisfy, some of your many concerns. :wink:

To the first point of her seeming lack of hull curvature I will say, "Damn your black innards you infernal bugger! She ain't your slab-sided hulk of butterbox berth!" :tongue: Seriously though, I think most of this is the angle from which the picture was taken. I have no doubt that there is some to be desired, but I think that can be said of any LEGO ship that embraces the use of pre-fabricated hulls. There is some curve there (or at least the appearance of it in the "paintwork"). I didn't use a picture that mirrors the reference one exactly because I partly wanted some view of the deck along with a desire to hide the aft most portion of the stern (which is not representative of what I have planned for her, but are the limits of LDD).

As to the main and fore-channels: you have me here. I'm quite surprised I never noticed their lack of length. I think perhaps spending most of my viewing time at the level of a snail I failed to notice the lack of proper proportioning. I will indeed rectify this before building this portion in real life. Thanks for pointing it out.

Now to the cannon ports in the stern "cabin." All your concerns are quite reasonable and ones I came across. I originally had a cabin/quarterdeck area that was probably 6 studs shorter. This, as you pointed out, leaves no practical room for working of the great guns. So to increase the playability factor I lengthened that section. (That's the reason there's the great overhang you touch on later.) Again, I hope to resolve all these issues once I get my hands on the older style stern piece so I can get a visualization for how it will lie within the ship. I can't promise that she will look perfect in the end, but I'm confident she'll look much better than she is.

You asked about the wheel, and your intuitions are quite right. On the Lady Washington she actually has a whipstaff and no wheel at all. (Actually I think it's more accurate to name it a common tiller than whipstaff. I'll see if I can't find a picture.) The wheel was indeed added in the film to make her more piratical.

Posted Image

I know the lubber's hole is a bit small, but it was hard to work it in without it being some gaping great space in the top. It's 2x1 which a mini-fig could fit through (if he has no arms). But no able-bodied seamen would be caught doing anything but scaling the futtock shrouds. So I'm okay with it's size. :tongue:

Thanks again for all the critiques. That's why I posted her up here. I'll tear her completely apart and start anew if that's what it takes.
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#14 Foremast Jack

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:40 PM

View PostCaptain Becker, on 14 February 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Id like to get LXF-file to take a bit closer look before i say anything. :pir-classic:

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Becker you are always after all my LXF files. :laugh: While I do, ultimately, plan to post it, I'm not going to just yet. I think I may take some more pictures, but I really only posted the one LDD screen shot because the admins don't like posts without pictures and since my bricks are en route I needed something.

We'll see though. With all the feedback I don't think I can keep passing off flaws as "the picture angle doesn't do it justice" without giving some better angles.  :pir-hmpf_bad:
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#15 SuperSirLink

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:10 AM

View PostForemast Jack, on 14 February 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Now please keep in mind that whilst the LDD model is "complete" there are naturally things that can be done in real life, but not replicated to great effect in LDD (without causing replicable brain-damage).

I know exactly what you mean! I look forward to seeing what you come up with!  After all your help with my build, I would be happy to assist you in any way I can.  Sometimes you can spend alot of time on something and you can just use another set of eyes to point out what you would easily overlook.

More pics are a must!  :pir_laugh2:

Edit: I think I found your brickshelf gallery...  :pir-blush:

My only suggestion would be to go with the dark tan plates instead of reddish brown for the deck.  Little more money, but they look a little more like a natural wood color...

Edited by SuperSirLink, 15 February 2012 - 12:40 AM.


#16 Foremast Jack

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:00 AM

Okay, so here are so more LDD shots since they seem quite desired.

The first are general images of the ship.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Here are the yards and spars.

Posted Image

The ship's jolly-boat.

Posted Image

And lastly (the part of the ship I'm most fond and proud of) the windlass, which is fully functional with a working pawl. (The technique for the squared bar holes is taken from Kurigan.)

Posted Image
"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#17 Foremast Jack

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:16 PM

View PostSuperSirLink, on 15 February 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

My only suggestion would be to go with the dark tan plates instead of reddish brown for the deck.  Little more money, but they look a little more like a natural wood color...

Just saw your edit. Yes, I actually had planned to use tan (normal, not dark) for some time now. I just never bothered to change it in LDD. Again, this is because LDD is more a visual guide than a formal set of instructions for me.

I wanted to use dark tan, but the tiles are only readily available in sizes that don't completely serve my purposes. (This is also the case with dark brown and brown.) So since tan has the greatest range of sizes, it is what I'll go with.

Thinking on it some more though, I may go back and rework the decking with available dark tan sizes and fill in the holes with tan; we'll see.

Edited by Foremast Jack, 15 February 2012 - 03:16 PM.

"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#18 hobbes5a

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:08 PM

I just couldn't agree more when I read your post, except that I just change the word "Interceptor" to "Surprise".
Anyway I congratulate your build. It's a fabulous design with excellent details. The only flaw, like the others have said, is the stern.
Can't wait to see it in real bricks! :pir-cry_happy:

Edited by hobbes5a, 15 February 2012 - 04:08 PM.


#19 Foremast Jack

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:00 PM

So based on all the responses I received here, I'm in the process of reworking the entire upper-half of the ship, stem to stern. I'll think she'll turn out a lot better.

I'm sure I'll still post a picture or two when my brick-link orders arrive, but seeing how some the pieces I ordered are no longer the right ones, I'm not sure how complete it'll be. We'll just have to wait and see.

Edited by Foremast Jack, 15 February 2012 - 11:00 PM.

"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#20 SuperSirLink

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:13 AM

View PostForemast Jack, on 15 February 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Just saw your edit. Yes, I actually had planned to use tan (normal, not dark) for some time now. I just never bothered to change it in LDD. Again, this is because LDD is more a visual guide than a formal set of instructions for me.

I wanted to use dark tan, but the tiles are only readily available in sizes that don't completely serve my purposes. (This is also the case with dark brown and brown.) So since tan has the greatest range of sizes, it is what I'll go with.

Thinking on it some more though, I may go back and rework the decking with available dark tan sizes and fill in the holes with tan; we'll see.
I will have some pics of mine in real brick up by this weekend... So you can use it for comparison if you'd like... I am quite pleased with the dark tan. The only dark tan I couldn't get that I used was the 1x1 tiles...

#21 Foremast Jack

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 02:30 AM

So did some reworking on her today as I briefly touched on earlier. Wanted to post a picture to get some feedback on the changes.

Changed things:
- Reworked the entire length of gunwales from the trumblehome aft. Employed a SNOT technique to allow for multi-tone colouring to more accurately reflect the paint scheme.

- Replaced the gun-port cover "flags" with brick-built covers.

- Removed the "slopes" in the gunwales and instituted a hinge system (based on CGH's technique) to give the look of more curvature in the hull. (note: I didn't go through the process of angling the sides in LDD, but obviously they will be in real life.)

- Lengthened the channels substantially.

- (There were innumerable other small changes, however myself alone will recognise them.)

Posted Image
"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#22 EITC Capt.William

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 04:06 AM

Ver nice  :pir-sweet:

#23 Foremast Jack

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:45 PM

I think I'm going to completely scrap this project and start anew with a brick-built hull.

I'll post the .LXF in case any avid POTC fans have a desire to use any part of it to add the Interceptor to their fleet.
"You don't make friends with the foremast jacks, lad.
They'll think you weak; despise you in the end."
                           - Captain Jack Aubrey

#24 Frank Brick Wright

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:58 PM

Are you sure you want to do that? It is of course your choice, but you had dedicated so much time to her that now it looks like a mistake… Posted Image

An important thing to consider is that this is your first ship. There is no way your first ship is going to be Perfect, for much time you dedicate to her. A first ship is always an important point in your Lego life, it is a vessel you remember through time for her qualities and defects. Shipbuilding requires experience; oneself cannot create a fantastic vessel without many previous builds.

In my opinion you have achieved a lot with this build. I think this is incredibly good for a first project and it does have very nice absolute qualities. If you already have the parts I see no reason for not finishing her: I can assure you you will learn more by placing the bricks in top of each other and actually building and finishing a vessel than by a thousand years projecting in LDD. There are things that do not get replicated in the digital drawings.

All this endless talk to say: the choice is yours but I strongly advice you, as a not-that-much-experienced shipbuilder but mostly as a friend to build your project of the Interceptor (Icarus).

Edited by Frank Brick Wright, 17 February 2012 - 02:59 PM.

A ship is floating in the harbour now,

The wind is hovering o'er the mountain's brow;

There is a path on the sea's azure floor,

No keel has ever ploughed that path before

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#25 SuperSirLink

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:25 PM

I agree, don't give up on her now.  Start fleshing her out in real brick and adjustments along the way!




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